KAMEN RIDER KIVA - SERIES WRAP-UP

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...ieswrapupa.png

I don't know what to do with this show.

I enjoyed watching it. I'm going to say that right up front, since I feel like a lot of what's going to come next will sound like I didn't have a good time. I found this show's mix of humor, drama, and earnest examinations of love to be a generally positive and unique experience. It was a show that tried a bunch of different things, approached A Kamen Rider Story in some idiosyncratic ways, and left me glad that I watched it. I had fun.

I don't know if the show was that good, though.

I remember making some comparisons to Ghost at the beginning of this thread, and I'm reminded of my final takeaway for that series here: Not as bad as you've heard, not as good as you'd hope. (I feel like Ghost has grown in my memory, though, so take that with a grain of salt.) There are intensely problematic elements that the show mostly skates away from, and bizarre side characters that become integral to the storytelling. There were episodes in this series that made me cry from their beauty, and ones that were the worst Kamen Rider episodes I've ever seen. Quality-wise, it's all over the place. Even within individual episodes, you could have clever scenes followed by stupid scenes followed by beautiful scenes followed by crass scenes. Every character had at least one multi-episode storyline that was embarrassing, and every single character had an arc that included moments of poignant clarity. Big tent, this show. Contained multitudes.

The plot of this series... I think it might be my favorite part? Maybe? It's not like it amounted to much, in the end. Bishop was an idea, not really a threat. King was a threat, but not really an idea. The Fangire culture never felt like a thing, despite all of the royal trappings and pressure on their leadership. But there was a fluidity to the storytelling that I really enjoyed. After Den-O, which would have these lurching Time To Care About Sakurai Again switch-ups in tension and stakes, to have a show that slowly and deliberately evolved its world and expanded its focus? I liked that. I never felt like the Fangire storytelling got in the way of the character storytelling. (God, sometimes it was the other way around, especially in the last few episodes.) The world-building for Kiva was solid and unobtrusive, creating just enough friction for these characters to sharpen up against it. Nothing ever felt like wheel-spinning, and there clearly wasn't a huge rush to resolve things at the finale. It was just a solid world in which to tell some stories about superheroes and love.

I don't know if I liked these characters, though.

I mean, I liked the stories that were told with and about these characters. Nago's quest to accept that he may have a flaw or two, Megumi's inability to compartmentalize her work and personal lives (she marries her co-worker!), Kengo's constant and abiding friendship and decency, Shima's constant and abiding terribleness as a boss, Yuri's steadfast warrior spirit, Otoya's steadfast horny spirit, that time Jiro ate a domino... they are memorably weird characters, and that's no small thing.

But, like, I'm okay saying goodbye to them? For most Kamen Rider shows, reaching the finale is bittersweet. We have to say goodbye to these characters, sometimes forever. The Hibiki finale was almost explicitly about that, and it hits like a punch in the gut. (Sorry to bring up the second half of Hibiki without a Content Warning.) It can suck to lose the characters, even as another show, another set of friends, is on the horizon.

I don't really feel that sad about saying goodbye to these weirdos. I'm okay with their story being done, even as I enjoyed it. This isn't Den-O, where you had such a good time going on an adventure with your monster friends that you will keep riding the rails until Ryotaro quits to go have a film career, and you'll still keep going anyway. This is like... this is like gorging yourself on a type of snack. You eat so much of it that you get nauseous thinking of having it ever again. It was good - you wouldn't've eaten so much if it wasn't - but you would never ask for more of it. These characters and their journeys... I am okay putting them away for good.

Thematically, I liked a lot of what it was saying, even if I don't think it was saying the same thing all the way through. I'm not sure if it's supposed to mirror Wataru's growth as a man, but I liked the show moving from Wataru's lack of self-definition into Wataru's need for connection into Wataru's self-determination into Wataru's need for love. There's a fuzziness to it, maybe, where certain early themes fell by the wayside. (Boy, Inoue pretty much got sick of talking about art and artists, didn't he?) And the larger theme of Love, using that to encompass both familial and romantic love was sort of tricky, and not entirely successful. (Basically, once Wataru gets horny for Mio, it's a little weird for him to keep thinking about his mom and dad.) But there's always a whole bunch to unpack from an Inoue show, and this one was no different. I liked seeing him talk about uncaring systems, and self-determination, and the power of art (when he felt like it), and all of the rest of it. Seeing all of that run through Wataru made for a frequently mystifying, occasionally frustrating, and perpetually fascinating show.

Speaking of Wataru! I like him. I like that kid. I don't really care about him, maybe, but I like him.

It's a weird thing to realize, as a show is ending, that you don't really care about the title character. I liked his journey, but that was almost always for other characters that intersected with it, or the themes it was dealing with. Wataru himself... eh. He was almost always overshadowed on this show by other characters, and, like, the final episode only works because of the Megumi/Nago plot. That's not great! That is pretty much a failure from a storytelling perspective, a viewer not caring about the end of the title character's story. The performance was cute, and there isn't really a lot to kick about for his series-arc (outside of the last two episodes), but I find myself real lukewarm on Wataru as a hero. Sweet boy, but not a hero I'm finding myself that attached to.

So, yeah. That's about where I'm at right now. Usually, these Series Wrap-Up posts are about how great the characters were, and how much the plot let them down, and how sad it is to see them go. Not so much this time, I guess. Kiva's a fun show that had a bunch of memorable characters I am fine never seeing again, in a decent story that the characters sometimes screwed up.

Of all the ways I thought I'd feel about Kiva, not sure I foresaw Ambivalent as the way I'd describe my feelings. It was a fun show, though, and I'm glad I watched it. Just... probably not one I'm itching to rewatch.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...ieswrapupb.png

my main takeaway from all of this is that darkness moonbreak is cool

You know when I first watched Kiva I always assumed Megumi was older than Wataru. But Otoya died before Yuri found a new man so Wataru has already been conceived. Unless Fangires carry their babies longer than 9 months then Wataru is older than Megumi right?

My main takeaway from this thread is that Fish's OST drops in his posts, more specifically his one from Episode 10 helped me find out the one song that stuck with me after my first time watching Kiva many moons ago, that I only ever knew as "Sad Violin Kiva Song", so that was great to find and listen to constantly again.

Valid takeaway!

Ha ha ha, you're right! Since Otoya dies in 1986 (or early 1987, depending on if the '86 plotline moves at the same rate the '08 one does), that means Wataru's at least 20 when the show starts... and they did a movie where he has to go back to high school?! He was way too old for that! On a lot of levels!

Also, yeah, there's basically no way Megumi can be older than Wataru, unless there's a deleted scene where we find out that Yuri had a kid at home the whole time and just never talked about it with anyone for an entire year. Megumi refers to herself as Wataru's older sister a bunch of times, so you weren't just imagining it.

Also valid takeaway!

I am seriously laughing about there being an edit made to Yuri's goodbye scene with Otoya, that she originally responded to his request for her omelette rice recipe with, "I knew you liked it! I always make it for my 4-year old daughter, and she loves it! Well, I guess I should say loved it, since I haven't seen her since I abandoned her to move in with you", and the other producers being like Wait What and making Inoue cut it.

I've read that Shima is still alive somewhere, but finding it out how Shima comes back... yes it was underwhelming, for the lack of plausible reason. The explanation in story is to make Shima see the kind side of Taiga, making him realize that his fanatic views of Fangire is wrong, thus tolerating Wataru. I'd think that being "spared" from death is not plausible reason to see good traits in someone, this goes for audience who also treat someone as innocent due to sparing someone from death... ignoring how they savagely attacked them at first. Probably yeah, without explanation can make the scene better to show... toughness Fangires have in Shima, though somehow Shima explodes like a monster being detonated without the monster dying, I think something like Ryuki did the fake explosion better to fake Goro's death, when Ryuki shoots Strike Vent, of which Magnugiga secretly escalates the explosion. Besides, Shima is partly at fault to turn Taiga like the way he is now, as without Otoya or King, Shima was the one who raised Taiga for a while, and Taiga points out that Shima's discrimination to Fangires was already long present before this incident where Taiga attacks Shima in a fit of rage, with Shima's cold and outright xenophobic attitude being what caused Taiga to angrily lash out in the first place.

This stems back for my argument regarding system before, system would lead into bad nonsense thing if it's ruled by someone as rotten as King, a sociopath who has cruel ruling of Fangire laws, and his "love" for Maya: he initially claims that he doesn't love her, but seeing her have feelings for Otoya made him very entitled to her being his, even trying to threaten her with Taiga's life, taking her Fangire powers; sparing her from death to make her feel worse than that, and so on. But it's not entirely system fault, the other Fangires need to wise up if they're not entirely malicious and overthrow King and instill a reasonable one as King, especially if there's Fangires who love humans and wants to stay that way (and probably the ones who love humans propose to work together with humans), albeit of course the problem is King's sheer strength. But system can be made to prevent chaos going on (but for King and Taiga, it's to gain advantage over humans), how systems can corner or benefit is based on who's in charge.

Don't dismantle system, improve it, which is what Wataru is doing, overthrowing evil monsters who assume roles as King to put himself as the King, so that he can likely establish a rule to make it fair for both humans and Fangires, albeit Taiga isn't 100% evil unlike King and he's on process to redemption. It's what I think makes sense for Wataru's goal as peacemaker between Fangires and humans (remember besides of trying to eliminate himself, he vows to do this too! the rules established by King is also what takes Mio's life!), despite that it seems to not follow what you want for Inoue being against system (King himself is an evil counterpart to Wataru, that's why he dons the outfit and King can look like Wataru), which is Wataru altering the system to his noble needs but I explained above regarding system.

I don't understand that Kiva's sexism here is implemented at this late of the show to keep the status quo of Nago being the IXA user instead of Megumi, as well as Nago forgetting Megumi to ask Wataru to run Aozora, probably Wataru's now strong without even henshin to Kiva Emperor that he can scare off Fangires with just a glare (built-in King quality), that Wataru is the one that fits to influence others by that, 180 degree change from him at the past. For Shima being welcomed back with open arms, you forget about how what matters is "Wataru is Wataru"? Same can go for "Shima is Shima, no matter if he's a rampaging monster or human like them".

So, two things.

First, even though Shima sees Taiga's actions - turning him into a Fangire, faking his death, and then resurrecting him as a normal human - as proof that Taiga cares about people and can be redeemed, let's also recall that this entire stupid scheme was built to either make Wataru feel like enough of a hypocrite to join Taiga in subjugating humanity, or to goad Wataru into a duel to the death with Taiga, depending on which phase of the scheme we are in. Shima may look at the end result as proof that Taiga is worth saving, but that's only because Shima is a hectoring, goal-oriented asshole. I'm not sure Taiga had good intentions for about 95% of his plan!

Second, while I did just called Shima a hectoring, goal-oriented asshole, the details of Shima's time as Taiga's surrogate dad are pretty vague. We can assume he's as awful a father as he is a boss, but there's way too little evidence to say if Shima's that bad, or if Taiga - someone who is maybe sometimes slightly overstating his hardships - is making himself a victim. It's one of the big problems with this plot: we don't ever see anything Taiga and Shima are referring to? It's all Tell, no Show. Definitely makes finding an emotional core in this part of the series damn near impossible.

That would be a great story! I'd be real into that! It's... not the story the show is telling at this point? Like, this is a story where Wataru ignores his friends, dresses like the tyrant who nearly killed everyone in his family, and forces his Three Weird Uncles to kneel in submission. We are not at all in a story about Wataru's kindness and nobility.

I don't think anybody behind the scenes can stop Inoue from doing anything, considering some of the stuff we've seen!

But that's the funniest part to me: this is all the fixed version.

As much as I am open about liking Kiva… I do agree that there really isn’t a reason to see these characters again. Pretty much all of their threads are resolved and there’s little in the way of loose ends to justify their reappearances. Still, that’s not a bad thing, considering how a lot of modern shows have a tendency for characters to reappear long past their ability to tell a decent story, rather than being sent out with a high, leaving the fans wanting more.

That's... honestly kinda surprising to read! Aside from a couple bad episodes near the end, I saw you constantly singing the show's praises and breaking your INOUE FOREVER quota to the point I thought this might end up being a big favourite of yours. And maybe it is, but... gosh that's a little scathing!

It almost reminds me of how I felt about Gaim? I generally had a good time following along with it at the time, but it left me with nothing and I'm not really sad to never see more of it. It's gotten a little more negative than that over time, and Kiva absolutely cares about its character development more than Gaim; but even so... how much would you say you like this show, then? Unless that post is as best as you can put the feelings it's left you with, because I wouldn't blame you!

As much as I am not a huge fan of Inoue, I will say that Kiva's final battle is one of my favorite moments. Probably because of Supernova playing in the background while Wataru and Taiga have their double rider moment. Two Kivas finally breaking the chain and forging a new path that divided humans and fangires. The trip was harsh and grimy, but totally worth it for those two. And V-Cinema Kiva IV when, Toei? I want more Masao. :lolol
You know back in the days I was hoping they would make a V-Cinema spinoff about Masao and his band of riders fighting the Neo Fangire. It would be Masao as the new Kiva and then we also would get the next gen IXA and Dark Kiva who resemble Yuri and King. Anyhoos, Another journey finished. Good stuff. :rock:

I've gained a new appreciation for Kiva after rewatching it, so I've promoted it from 10/19 to 7/19 in my currently Blade-less Heisei Rider ranking!

We've actually known how old Megumi is for most of the show, since that stalker creep Sheep Fangire mentioned she was born in late December 1987, a Capricorn and 20 years old (which sounds like he knows a lot until you realize it's really three different ways of saying the same thing, although he did mention blood type as well). Regarding Wataru suddenly being a high school student in the movie, well, there are reasons that movie is non-canon. He's always been a 20 year-old since the start of the show.

Shizuka is a 14 year-old who refers to herself as Wataru's mother, so there's very little correlation between age and these two girls wanting to act as a mature role model to a dude who is actually older but lacks social skills due to his strange upbringing.

And yeah, the 1986 plot did roll in to 1987 for exactly one episode, that being the one where Otoya dies. If you paid close attention to the OP, you might have noticed the years had changed to 1987 and 2009.

Inoue definitely does his best work within the boundaries of PG entertainment. When he writes a movie, V-Cinema, or whatever Shougeki Gouraigan was supposed to be, there's a chance it can get weird and not always in a good way. This is the opposite of Kobayashi, who works better with less boundaries.

Where do I sign?

So, final thoughts on Kamen Rider Caoimhe.

This was the show I was most looking forward to revisiting from the back half of Phase 1. Before Ghost took its spot, I had been very vocal about Kiva being my least favorite Rider series. But last year's Faiz rewatch really made me re-evaluate that series and gain a much stronger appreciation for it. I was curious to see if Kiva would go through a similar upgrade in opinion and I would say that it did. -ish.

I still don't love Kiva and I still think it's definitely the weakest show of Phase 1 for me, subjectively speaking. I've seen enough of Inoue's other shows to recognize that Kiva was made up of a lot of recycled material and between that and the hilarious apathy towards promoting the merchandise, I really get the sense that his heart wasn't in this one. I don't think the story is bad, per se, but it can be a little disjointed in places and the split timelines lead to some real pacing issues near the end.

As I've probably indicated several times now, I enjoyed the '86 side of the story far more than the '08 one. I love the energy that Otoya brings to the show and I like watching him develop into someone who's still pretty awful but also a hero by the end. Yuri is also great, if too often on the receiving end of the show's more frustrating plot developments. For the '08 side... well, I like Megumi a lot more than I did the first time through. She's delightful and easily the highlight of that part of the show. I still find Nago to be generally unlikable and Wataru's slow progress with repeated backsliding still frustrates me. The extreme focus on the Wataru/Taiga/Mio triangle in the final quarter of the show - to the expense of not only the other '08 characters but the entire '86 story - really tried my patience a lot as we closed in on the end.

All that being said, I still had some real fun with the show, sometimes in really unexpected places. I liked the movie (which was new to me) a whole hell of a lot more than I thought I would. I definitely gained new appreciation for some of the side characters like Kengo, Megumi, and the coffee shop owner (I'm sure he has a name, but I am completely blanking on it). Going into the show knowing how it worked also made me find all of the inexplicable toy promos way more amusing this time through. I've criticized Kiva a lot for an unwillingness to explain a lot of what happens on screen, but I'm finding that to be more of a charming quirk than an annoyance now.

I don't know if I have any big final thoughts to wrap this up with. I don't love Kiva. I don't even like Kiva sometimes. End of the day, though, I can easily think of several Rider shows that I would happily choose Kiva over if I wanted a quick KR fix and had limited options to choose from.

Yeah, I think all of the Riders leaping into the air to stop a brand-new enemy is, if anything, a more definitive ending than a lot of previous shows? It's a statement about how healthy all of the weirdos became, where they're able to see each other as friends and family. It's a happy ending, without any of the bittersweet notes of previous shows. That makes it an ending that it would... it would feel crass to do more with. Let them have their hard-earned happiness!

It... hmm.

A lot of it is just in how I write? I tend not to go into the posts with firm statements and hypotheses. It's very stream-of-consciousness, where I just let myself start typing and let whatever comes out becomes the point I wanted to make. It's sloppy, but at least it's honest.

Writing about a Kiva as a finished piece of art was... weird. There's plenty I enjoyed about watching this series (I hope I've made that clear!), but in retrospect, I found that it was a lot of random elements. Episodes about sympathetic monsters, comedic diversions, smaller moments. The sweep and scope of the series didn't feel like anything I adored. The journey of the characters was pleasant, without really being something I could rave about. I don't know.

It's less of a firm commitment to judging it and more that I had this feeling, and I hoped by talking about it I could figure out why I felt that way. There really isn't one huge problem I had (well: the last two episodes), but more a bunch of questions I had about the overall effectiveness of the series. Did the dual timelines work for the duration of the series? Did the show use its cast as well as it could've? Would I want more stories about any of them? And when they the answers I could come up with were so ambivalent, it was like... yeah, maybe this was a series that was fun to watch but still not that great.

(Also, I tried to write this response when I was in the middle of a couple things at work, and that was a huge mistake. I have to stop every other sentence to do something, and that is terrible for my train of thought. Sorry! I might have a better answer later.)

And they celebrated their new brotherly love by punching each other in the face to make their mom happy!

Glad to hear! That's some strong praise and stiff competition!

I don't know how much I agree with the charges that Kiva is noticeably more sexist than the average Rider show, but this moment right here is possibly the most toxically masculine moment I can remember seeing in modern Rider in a long time.

Of course Wataru wouldn't feel disconnected from Otoya, especially after the shit they go through in few previous episodes. It was about how Wataru reaffirm is connection with his father, after a period where Wataru feels disappointed by his father's sins. But of course, Otoya has long gone, and is parted away from Wataru for eternity now. But the IXA gauntlet possibly means for how Otoya's always on Wataru's side even when his self is long gone I think, the cheesy line that happens in some media that "I'll be always on your side" after a loved one's death, not about Wataru or the relationship's evolution. For the final fight, Bishop's loyalty to the law is further shown that he won't rule over the Fangire by himself, but instead revives the King in 1986 to settle things, albeit the King is turned into mindless zombie. Feels like Bishop has the most control regarding the Fangire instead of the King or Queen, killing 'traitorous' Queen and decides who he feels is worthy to be a King. The idea of Kiva Emperor and Dark Kiva's finisher is quite neat at the end for Dark Kiva to use a finisher resembling Saga, so that King isn't immediately killed for Kiva Emperor to perform his Emperor Moon Break, albeit I'd wish the kick would portray the bashing with the claws on Kiva's legs like how it's originally portrayed.

For you to think this doesn't seem kind of Wataru, I also felt the same for certain scene before in ep. 40, Wataru putting dangerous stuff for people who interferes at his shut in phase like his friends? He wants to prevent himself hurting others by being a shut in, yet is hurting others himself using the harmful traps...

I think the one that confuses me more is about how Taiga trying to settle things with Wataru after Bishop clarifies that he's the one who actually killed Mio, that seems to be a real path for redemption between Wataru and Taiga after Taiga swore vengeance on Wataru. Though Taiga's main thing is always to benefit Fangire race and thus, his King position is the one thing that he cherishes the most, everything he did, is part of his King position, to romance and marry Mio (albeit Taiga at least views her as person), etc. By that Taiga thinks Wataru is taking away the very thing that defines him, which is his position as a King and his obligation to benefit Fangires out of spite, and I guess Wataru and Shima, execution aside especially for the latter, clears up the misunderstanding of that, informing Taiga that he takes the position as a King for Taiga's own good, and that Taiga still has the obligation to benefit Fangires by Wataru's words that Taiga's a real king.

Though after that, after Taiga redeemed, the real final fight in the story was Kiva Emperor vs Dark Kiva, and it's done for meta reasons, because both Riders are broken thus the series pit the most broken Rider there with another one. It being "fighting for love"... the fight also reminds me of Drive's finale where Shinnosuke and Heart settle things out after they become allies. I don't know about the message part of Maya thinking that fighting can make understandings between one's soul can likely be misused, though it can also make sense in certain aspect.

Well, I think the Nago and Megumi stuff here is still similar as before, with Nago staying as IXA instead of Megumi, and Megumi instead puts both into harder job (at least before Nago recovers) by coaching him in the fight... I wonder what would you think as difference here compared to the previous episode one? After Megumi's focus dipped, that's the last second of giving her prominence, but not as IXA. This part can be something that doesn't sit right with some, and consider another sexism in Kiva to prevent the idea of a woman being a permanent Kamen Rider. This also can be something that gives the impression of how women are meant to marry and give kids, though I'd likely also try to use your explanation here for better understanding, or a mistake in action stuff to just pair 2 person because one of them is male and the other is female. Otherwise, Wataru's future son, Masao, is portrayed by Otoya's actor Kouhei Takeda too.

I'm going to save my big thoughts on Kiva as a whole for my next big post, because this one is going to be long enough as it is. Like I said, I'm not quite done with the music gimmick yet, and even though I still won't ~quite~ be done after this, this is definitely going to the most elaborate one of these I do.

See, the first idea I had in mind as the thing I wanted to do in this thread was actually to give straight up translations for some of the songs in the show. This was quite a while back, which I know for sure because coincidentally, the day I gave up on that idea was also the day I wrote a translation for the Kikaider anime's ED over in DreamSword's thread, just a hair over a year back, apparently.

While that ended up going surprisingly smoothly, I had spent some time over the prior couple days getting nowhere translating Destiny's Play, and then came the realization that Die watching the OZC stuff meant he'd be getting to see, in show, a translation of that exact song based off one written by my eternal fansubbing idol, one of the people who indirectly got me interested in this whole translation business to begin with. I was not going to top that! And since I was only giving Destiny's Play a shot to see how it felt before really committing to the idea, I didn't, let the whole concept go, and once the thread actually started, quickly stumbled upon the format you've seen from me here instead.

That all being said, there are a handful of TETRA-FANG songs I've never given that much attention prior to this thread, and I was so struck by how much I liked the Message trilogy after ignoring it for so long, that I decided to give the translation thing a shot again, because there really aren't many out there for these songs. (I will give a quick shout-out here to the single person I came across who did the second and third songs at all.) Which is a huge shame! It's a great group of intimate little tunes that provide a lot of insight into Wataru's state of mind throughout the show, the same way Destiny's Play and Supernova do – only more mellow. I love 'em all so much now that simply describing the gist of the lyrics like I have been feels totally inadequate.

Part of the reason I hesitate to do a song translation especially is because after a point, it sort of inevitably stops being Fujibayashi's words and starts being mine, and I don't think those words are going to be as good, but, if you'll forgive me for being a little loose in some spots, a little clunky in others, and rather beige all around, I'm confident enough I've put something together that can at least easily give you a good feel for each of these songs without requiring any further deciphering, even if it will only ever be strictly my interpretation.

So without further ado, let's take a look at each of them, and a look back at the series and its music in the process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH6aaH6ikEY

(First up is the very original Message, more formally known as Message [Tribute to Father], as most songs on the Supernova mini album have a subtitle like that. This is generally related to a form name, as the album, released not too long after Emperor debuted in the show, consisted largely of the songs written for each form that had been playing over the episodes in the preceding couple months. Though weirdly Emperor Form itself is styled as "Empire form". Anyway, as you can guess from those brackets, Message is all about Wataru's relationship with Otoya, and how much he looks to him for strength. It's written very much from the perspective of the early-series Wataru that was still scared to even step outside his house. This one could be considered Otoya's message to his son.)

まだ暗い朝の街を闇が少し溶けてゆくよ
On a morning that's still gloomy, the darkness slowly begins to fade away
Tell me, 僕が探している答えにもいつかはまぶしい光が射す?
Tell me, will a bright light ever shine on the answer I'm searching for as well?
もしあなたが此処にいたのならなんて云うのかな... 教えて
If you were here with me, what would you say? Let me know
遥か遠い時に祈った
I sent this prayer to a far-off time
朝と夜の色混ざるグラデーション
Morning and night, their colors mixed in gradation
二度と無い景色ありのままだから美しいYour message...?
It's a scene that's one of a kind, beautiful just the way it is. Is that your message?
See me 僕は歩き出して
See me, I've started walking forward
自分の早さでいい地図さえなくてもいい
I'm fine if I go my own pace, I'm fine even without a map
もしあなたがそばにいたのなら何を話すだろう... 大丈夫
If you were by my side, I wonder, what would you talk about? It's alright
空は僕の真上にいつも
The sky will always be right there above me
雲が形変え風に流れてく
The clouds change shape, carried along by the wind
変わってくものと 変わらない大切なものとYour message
Things that change, precious things that don't, and your message
朝と夜の色混ざるグラデーション
Morning and night, their colors mixed in gradation
二度と無い瞬間忘れない
It's a moment that's one of a kind, that I won't ever forget
雲が形変え風に流れてく
The clouds change shape, carried along by the wind
変わってくものと変わらない大切な物と...
Things that change, precious things that don't...
いつだって受け取れるのさYour message
and me, always here to receive your message

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCLv0EYiOdQ

(Following that up is Prayer~Message2, which was originally part of the Destiny album released later on in December, right as the show was moving into its final stretch. Fittingly, it's from the perspective of Wataru somewhere after that first quarter; still constantly doubting himself, and yet even the difference in the things he worries about makes it clear how much stronger he's grown. This one could be considered Wataru's message to his father.)

近くに感じてもねぇ永遠に追いつけない
No matter how close I get, I can never seem to catch up
さみしい影ふみみたいあなたは遠くて
Like I'm chasing after a shadow, you're always so far away
大切な人をたぶん見つけたんだ Can you hear me?
I think I've found someone I really care about. Can your hear me?
守り抜きたくて頼りなさ過ぎて自分が歯がゆくて
I want to protect them no matter what, but I'm so unreliable it's got me frustrated
あなたの音に溢れてる迷いのない強さを僕もいつか持てるなら
Your sound is overflowing with such unwavering strength, and if I could have that someday too
誰かを幸せに出来るそんな音奏でたい
I want to play a sound that can bring people happiness
届けこの祈り My little prayer
Let this wish reach you, my little prayer
毎日の速さにときどき心追いつかない
Every day moves at such a rapid pace, sometimes my heart can't keep up
昔の自分だったら逃げ出してたかも
If I were the way I used to be, I might've run away by now
大切な人が笑ってくれるなら Can you hear me?
If I can just see someone I care about smile... Can you hear me?
それだけで良くてでも難しくてまだまだ不器用で
That's all that matters, but it's still tough, and I'm still so lacking
あなたの音はいつだって染み込むよう優しく僕もいつか出来るかな
Your sound always leaves a deep impression of your kindness, and I wonder if I could do that someday too
自分だけの音見つけて世界を包み込むように
I want to find a sound all my own, and to let it cover the whole world
愛で満たしたい My little prayer
I'll fill it with my love, my little prayer
言葉よりももっと伝わるよ確かに Feel you あなたの祈り
It comes across clearer than any words; I feel you, and your wish
あなたの音に溢れてる迷いのない強さを僕もいつか…Promise
Your sound is overflowing with such unwavering strength, and someday I'll have that too, I promise
誰かを幸せに出来るそんな音奏でたい
I want to play a sound that can bring people happiness
届け祈り To your heart
Let my wish reach to your heart
自分だけの音見つけて世界を包み込むように
I want to find a sound all my own, and to let it cover the whole world
愛で満たしたい My little prayer
I'll fill it with my love, my little prayer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcmMNDaXjxI

(Finally, from the Re-Union album, we have Beginning~Message3, which was also the last song on said album. This is important to note, because Re-Union came out over halfway into Decade's run, and its mere existence is a testament to how awesome Kiva's music truly is, as this simply doesn't happen for most Rider shows. It was a real last hurrah for Kiva, and as such, the lyrics ~sort of~ reflect the conclusion of the series, with Wataru reflecting on a hard-earned happy ending, and the notable distinction of Otoya finally joining in. However, the song is perhaps primarily made to be a final farewell from TETRA-FANG and Kiva as a whole, and in that context it really tugs at the old heartstrings. This one could be considered the band's message directly to you.)

まるで今日までの出来事がぜんぶ夢みたいに感じる
It's enough to make all that's happened seem almost like a dream
嵐去った後曇りない空この街を今包んで
The storm has passed, and the sky above is as clear as can be
何かが終わって何かの始まりが待ってるだろう
Something has reached its end, and something else is surely waiting to start
風が流れてくように自由に歩き出せばいい
You only need to set off in the direction you wish, as free as the wind
遠くなる声はじまる別れ
A voice fades into the distance, and we begin to part ways
じゃあまたねいつもみたいに笑って
I'll see you later, so smile the way you always do
憶えているよ永遠新しい夜明け探し Just begin
The memories will last forever, just begin the search for a brand new dawn
ただ側にいても思うことがぜんぶ伝わる訳じゃないよ
I could be right by your side, but that alone won't let you know everything I'm feeling
ずっと離れても繋がった心届くこともあるはず
Even if we're always apart, our connected hearts can still reach one another too
始まりの音が君の耳聴こえているのなら
If the sound of a new beginning is reaching your ears
古い荷物は持たずにそのまま歩き出せばいい
You only need to set off, leaving all your old luggage behind
明日の方へまた逢えるまで
Heading towards tomorrow, until we can meet again
じゃあまたねここで一度さよなら
I'll see you later, this is goodbye for now
繰り返すのさそれぞれ出逢いと別れそして Just begin
The cycle keeps on going, just begin all those meetings and farewells
ときどき不安な夜が来たら覗いてみればいい
Whenever an uneasy night comes, simply look inside
今ここでは1人だけれど Forever in your heart
You may be alone right now, but forever in your heart
これまでに出逢った愛が見つかるはず
You'll find all the love you've encountered along the way
遠くなる声はじまる別れ
A voice fades into the distance, and we begin to part ways
じゃあまたねいつもみたいに笑って
I'll see you later, so smile the way you always do
憶えているよ永遠新しい夜明け探し Just begin
The memories will last forever, just begin the search for a brand new dawn
明日の方へまた逢えるまで
Heading towards tomorrow, until we can meet again
じゃあまたねここで一度さよなら
I'll see you later, this is goodbye for now
繰り返すのさそれぞれ出逢いと別れそして Just begin
The cycle keeps on going, just begin all those meetings and farewells

Hey, at least it's supervised by mama fangire. :lolol

The big warning sign for me, when I tried to figure out if I liked Kiva, was thinking about what my favorite moment was. It wasn't difficult. It was episodes 23 and 24. It was Shinji and Ryoko.

I'm going to remember those two probably forever. Those two episodes might be the best work Inoue and Ishida ever created together. It's beautiful, and sad, and joyous, and it's about love. It's about love as a power, love as an anchor, love as a cage, love as a key. It's literally everything this show wants to talk about, in just two episodes. That story alone validates Inoue's storytelling here.

It's also, y'know, not really a story about anyone in the regular cast of Kamen Rider Kiva. It's tremendously assured storytelling, drilling into complicated, important themes... but it's not an episode that is doing a lot with Wataru, Otoya, Yuri, Megumi, or Nago. It actually, uh, features the worst Yuri/Jiro/Otoya moment of the entire series? It's an episode that soars on wings of guest stars, of side stories, of self-contained interludes.

Realizing that, man, it really made me wonder if I liked the idea of Kiva more than I liked Kiva. It's not that I didn't like this show! It was fun to watch! But I was left grappling with whether the stories being told about our main characters leveraged all of the tools this show (and its themes) had to offer. I'm sort of still grappling with it?

I hated the Jiro stuff in 24, but that Brotherly Love Brawl might the most indefensible thing in this series. Shockingly tone-deaf.

I think the difference is in the tone? The Home Alone stuff is cartoon violence; wacky hijinks. What Wataru's doing to Taiga is driving him out of his mind, and the entire episode is devoted to all of Wataru's closest companions thinking he's turned evil. It's got different levels to it?

If I liked eating oranges, and I saw you buying up all of the oranges in town, I don't think I'd care a whole lot if you said you were doing it for my benefit.

Taiga's story for a while has been that he thought Wataru was a threat to his rule. Either because he wouldn't tow the line, or because he was going to take Mio away, or now because he was declaring himself king. The idea that Taiga would suddenly be okay with that because a man he hated said that it was for Taiga's own good... I don't think that's how emotions like jealousy work?

Mostly just tired of fighting it. It's Episode 48 of this show, man. I'm pissing against the tide, here.

Also, I think it's how integral Megumi is to the process, and how it's a real partnership? It's not just her propping up Nago like last time. It's them collaborating to achieve victory, and that's pretty new!

oh my god this was so amazing

this was worth a couple months of writing about kiva

oh man

oh you guys

how did we all get so lucky to be on the boards when fish was on the boards

holy hell

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva24b.png

EPISODE 42: Oh my god, what would possess Maya to leave one of her sons in the care of a terrible guardian like Shima? All he does is aggressively undermine people's sense of self-worth until they're willing to blindly follow his orders, no matter the danger they're placed in! He seems to delight in people sacrificing themselves to please him?

EPISODE 48: ...never mind.

So you don't like the show?

I don't think I'm really in a binary Like/Dislike place with Kiva. It's more that I think it was a show I very much enjoyed watching - the whole experience: the show itself, where I was at in my life at the time, everyone in this thread - without finding a ton of respect for it in the aftermath. It's a very watchable show, but one I think still let itself down in ways small and large.

I am not describing this great!

Here, I'll sum it up.

"It's a solid show. Nothing great, but enjoyable."

Man, that's the thing: I feel like the last thing I'd call it is "a solid show". It's all peaks and valleys. Dizzying highs and infuriating lows. Moments of beauty and moments of ugliness. Thematically rich and dramatically thin.

I don't know! Very complicated feelings about Kiva!

Yeah, sometimes you can't really sum things up that easily? I feel similar things about 01; it's not easy to box it into one or two sentences

Yeah, there are some shows that I love, except for two or three things, and there are shows I dislike, except for two or three things. Kiva's a show where there are ideas I love and execution I dislike; or execution I love about non-ideas. It's an appropriately messy show, considering the auteur behind it.

"Mixed feelings" then. No need to overthink it, really.

https://i.gifer.com/N4dx.gif

I don't think I can stop overthinking things! I mean, it's been a couple years of this, and I'm only getting weirder about these shows!

KAMEN RIDER KIVA - THREAD WRAP-UP

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...eadwrapupa.png

And that's a wrap on Kamen Rider Die Watches Kamen Rider Kiva!

Obviously, this thread will hang around for as long as folks want to talk about Kiva, but my day-to-day contributions are all done. I even opened my Kiva figure to celebrate:

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kivafig.JPG

(Neat sculpt, but BOY do those Fuestle holders like to pop off if you even think about them. Getting them to stay on while posing Kiva was an exercise in frustration. It was making me hate that suit to an almost Takaiwa level.)

Also! The commemorative Kamen Rider Die Makes A Word-Art for Kiva!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...ivawordart.png

This is drawn from the 106-page Google Doc I wrote all of my episode posts in. Hopefully some relevant combinations in there? (I'm fond of "Maya Megumi Good Things”, personally.)

Special thanks to Androzani84 and Fish Sandwich for their continuing encyclopedic knowledge, as well as their enthusiasm for the source material. As someone who isn't that keyed into the history of the medium, or the expanded details these shows accrue from interviews and articles, it's nice to get so much info and analysis about these series. Thank you both!

And, as always, thanks to everyone who took the time to participate in this thread. It was so gratifying to see lively and clever debate that never devolved into... well, all the things I was afraid a Kiva thread would devolve into. I hoped we could all be friendly in our disagreements - never letting an opposing viewpoint obscure our shared love of Kamen Rider - and you people really came through for me. You should all be proud of yourselves for continuing to make TokuNation one of the best places online. Give yourselves a round of applause, because you are the genius commenters of the millennium.

For me, I think this was an alright attempt at analyzing Kiva. B-, C+ work. Some episodes and stories I really got ahold of (feel good about 23/24, maybe a couple others), a bunch that I felt I was adequate at conveying something, and the rest that at least used a respectable amount of letters. This was always fun, even when I was the one least responsible for that fun.

The next few weeks are going to be bumpy! I really need to get my head out of a Kamen Rider space for at least a couple of weeks, because I've let some personal-life stuff slip in the last little while. Need to get back to a good place with all that, first thing. Then I'll head back over to the Den-O thread for a week or so, hit the last Ryotaro movie and probably the Cho Den-O three-parter. Probably take another couple weeks off after that, then start up the Decade thread. Somewhere in all that will be the behind-the-scenes work to get the Decade thread prepped. Busy summer, you guys! Busy summer.

In the meantime, thanks again for letting me experience a Kamen Rider series in your company. It's such a gift to get to do these threads, and I'm eternally grateful for your indulgence and for your friendship. You are all the best.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...eadwrapupb.png

First of all, definitely DO NOT do the Cho Den-O trilogy yet!! It all released after Decade, and while I'm sure that wouldn't bother you; the third one very inexplicably has a LOT to do with Decade. Best to leave that until after Decade, I feel!

In any case... I'm just happy about Wataru being larger than Otoya :lol

Since you just opened the Kiva figurative, I feel compelled to share a meme concerning it, in anticipation of reviving old features for the Decade thread.

Learning “X got a figuart before Kiva” the easy weeeeeiiiii!

Because the Souchaku Henshin figure for Kiva was deemed too good to surpass, the Figuarts line refused to make a figure of Kiva for 10 years. This led to jokes about how many minor characters (like Nadeshiko or Sangou), secondary characters from Kiva itself (such as Dark Kiva) and other non-Rider related people (like Michael Jackson) we’re getting figuarts, but one of the main Riders wasn’t. Though I don’t know for sure why they finally released one (maybe because of how rare the old one had become?)

Well,

A) The Souchaku Henshin figure being 'good' was their reason for not doing one at the time-- in SHF's early days there really was little difference in quality between the two lines. In fact in many cases I'd say the SH figures looked better compared to early SHF counterparts... but really, once they got past like 2011 or 2012 the SHF line's quality had far surpassed SH's, and they could have done one any time. I guess they just figured doing Blade or Hibiki was a bigger priority?

B) There was a pretty good reason for making Kiva at the specific point they did -- he was the final of the 20 Heisei Riders not yet made... and Zi-O had just started airing. They made a pretty big deal out of his reveal at the time as an anniversary celebration; alongside re-issues for about half of the other Heisei Rider SHFs. His original run even came with a Ridewatch Stand!

THIS STUPID FRANCHISE

Okay, so, I think what I'll do during the break is Final Countdown and maybe some weirder crap (stage show, anime, I don't know), then do the Den-O/Decade movie during Decade, then Cho Den-O post-Decade. I think?

I have heard about this! I wasn't collecting Figuarts at that point, but I was on the boards for the announcement and release. People seemed appropriately shocked and relieved!

ridiculous. who would talk about toku anime

I don't know, I got this friend who talks about toku anime, I should probably clear it with him first.

Oh the Den-O Final Stage is definitely something interesting to take a look at.

Admittedly i only did decide to pay attention to the actual Final Stage portion because TripleS went beyond the call of duty to include the entirety of the cast talk before the Final Stage segment.

PROS
Bubble era Otoya shenanigans
The cafe master and Jiro fanboying out on Onyanko club
The cafe master and Shima's never-ending bodyfat battles
Them suits!
SUPERNOVA
Double Kiva Rider moments both 80s and 2000s
IXAcise
Nago's brief period of descent and his blue 753 shirt
Masao

CONS
Occasional Inoue shenanigans we love to hate
Still no Kiva V-Cinema starring Masao and his Super Friends

Real talk I do love the IXA suit during the 80s in all its prototype-y imperfection. It has a certain charm to it with the limitations that make the battles all the more challenging. And the save mode visor looks cool.

Okay, just a last bit of falling action now to wrap up my music picks for Kiva. I've ended up covering so many songs from the show I figure I might as well knock a few more off the list to leave off on. So first up today is a song that represents 1986 and 2008 all at once, as long as we're talking strictly about Ixa, Inherited-System.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3q71nfugkM

This has actually come up in the thread already, but I didn't talk about it then, and considering how many songs I've shared from the album named after it (released on the same day as Destiny, as an Ixa-centric counterpart), it'd be a shame to leave it hanging. The appeal of this one is pretty straightforward. I mean, it's Yuri and Otoya and Megumi and Nago singing together in one song about the power that connects them all in the fight against darkness. It's pretty cool! Each duo gets their own verse and everything and it's overall just an upbeat and fun song.

But when it comes to being upbeat, it still loses out to the final song I'm sharing for Kiva, No matter who You are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCFqjd1GMCw

Before Re-Union came along, this was the last song on the last TETRA-FANG album, and it feels like it was meant to be a send-off in its own way. Kiva was a show that placed a not-insignificant amount of emphasis on people overcoming personal flaws, centered on a guy who was a mess of frequently crippling self-doubt, so what better way to demonstrate that this is the end than by having a song where Wataru is singing directly to you, the listener, all about not letting those negative thoughts get to you? This is another one I've mostly ignored until this thread, but it's an extremely sweet, reassuring song that touches on a lot of the show's major themes. If you're a fan of Kiva who really connected with its story, I have to imagine a motivational jam where Wataru literally tells you he'll be there for you is a pretty awesome thing to have.

...Or, wait, should I not be speaking hypothetically there? You know, this reminds me that I once put my opinion on Kiva as follows:

I deliberately avoided mentioning this the whole time because it's such a strong statement, but Kiva is actually what I've long considered the objective worst Heisei show. (Whatever "objective" means, of course.) You might also recall that it is explicitly not the one I long considered my absolute least favorite, and that weird contradiction is, in of itself, all the more reason I just can't help but be fond of this dumb show. It's filled to the brim with so many totally inexplicable writing decisions and baffling creative choices, and yet... yet... man, I don't even really know. There are some episodes in there I loved, for all the ones I was less keen on, and I always had fun hanging out with this cast through all their wacky antics. I was always especially fond of most of the 2008 characters, and as big of a soft spot as I have for Kiva the show, I have an even bigger one for Wataru himself. It's like, Kiva is show I recall having plenty of frustrating moments or unengaging plot threads, and yet in spite of this, whenever I think back on the show, it's always with this really warm feeling?

Or, man, maybe it just is those songs? It's a pretty stock thing people say about Kiva – "it was bad, but that soundtrack was good" – and I guess I've never drawn that same distinct line myself? To me, the songs can only be as good as they are because they lean so heavily on the drama of the show's world and its characters, and perhaps because I went into Kiva having already listened to so much of this stuff so often, I'm always inclined to believe in what's in there, even as I occasionally take cheap shots at it. I said at the start of the thread I had a weird connection to Kiva, but thinking more about it, maybe's it not weird at all? Maybe it's actually the most appropriate possible thing in the world, for Kiva to be a Rider show I feel the strongest connection to – that I can most easily see the beauty in – whenever I can hear the music coming from it.

At any rate, it was fun having the excuse to talk about all that music thanks to you, Die. I'm pretty sure you like this show, by the way? You seem a little wrapped up in trying to precisely define it all at the moment, but I've been watching you talk about Kiva for two months, and it sure as heck wasn't with the tone of someone who only kind of cares. The flaws are merely another part of what makes it what it is. If you're not in a binary Like/Dislike place with it, maybe you don't need to be in a strict Good/Bad place, either? And you know, I *do* recall you saying this about your very first Inoue show:

...so that's maybe why I'm so convinced Kiva will sit with you well in the long-run, even if it doesn't feel that way just yet. To break out a phrase I know you're fond of, Kiva is Kiva, and that's all it has to be if you want. Regardless, thanks for making another great thread, and as always, enjoy the time off! I look forward to our Journey through the Decade!

ONORE DI...*dragged out the room mouth muffled*