I just assumed the logic was because Xtreme is meant to be the ultimate power concealed within the Earth, and thus harnessing it would put the user into the God tier of power. Whereas the regular forms (aside from FangJoker) was just that, regular. They're just regular suits that have their limits.

I dunno, I guess I just expected more build up or impact. It just kinda...happens.

It really is. Or W is for sure.

This usually, I find, factors very little, but it's something I always keep in mind.

He was disowning him for his own safety, though. Again, I feel like this was the first major test of their bond. Note at first Philip immediately gave Shroud the finger when she told him Shotaro shouldn't be his partner. It was only when Cyclone became too powerful did he start to consider it, but that's what Philip does. He thinks, about everything. Were roles reversed Shotaro wouldn't question it, but Philip is all about questions. He's indecisive, while Shotaro makes rash decisions.

Funnily enough, this is one instance of you liking something I don't really care for. Actually, I do like Xtreme, but the helmet feels... off to me. It lacks, I think, the "expression" awarded by the head crest. And even though it doesn't, it feels like it has less of a chin. I still like it overall, though, and the SIC, however, makes the design INCREDIBLE.

http://www.tokunation.com/attachment...1&d=1391734809

That's the point, though.

They set up that two maximum drives were too much for W as he was, hence why Xtreme is so much more powerful. That's just how Xtreme works.

Basically, though I think it's mentioned I can't recall how in-depth the show goes, but Maximum drives are the unrestricted strength of a memory. Drivers filter out much of the harmful, addictive, and twisting effects of memories. Furthermore, purified memories are meant to filter even more, to remove all ill effects. This weakens the power in the process, though. So W, and Accel, and Museum use the best memories with the most power to compensate, and maximum drives are brief "unfiltered" blasts, hence their finisher status. Xtreme is not only a one of the most powerful memories itself, but the prism bicker means using four additional memories at full blast at once is easier to windstand, since it's not going into W's body. So while Xtreme is powerful enough to contain it, it's the functionality that makes it easier to harness as well. The Prism memory, which is like Accel's Engine memory which is not really a true memory you could transform with, probably also helps. It's also just a well of managable power, but not like Xtreme.

Oh yeah I get all that about Phillip, but it's just when all that plays out over an hour, as opposed to three weeks, the story lacks a lot of the punch it might have otherwise had.

I dunno, there is nothing wrong with the concept of the Finishers, but W is a show where transforming doesn't provide all the answers. So I would have at least liked a line like.
"Hey Phillip, this is crazy, are we sure this is going to work?" Or just, something.

He went from knowing full well the risks of a double Maximum Drive, to doing TWO quadruple maximum drives without a moments hesitation or a single word muttered.

Edit: Double post but one was empty? Dafook?

Agito 45: Very intriguing episode and learned more answers involving Uncle's past. I'm glad that Ryou still wants to save Shouichi even without powers and Kino too. Hikawa losing his sight reminds me of Nago in Kiva probably what they were referencing. It sucks everyone is powerless right now. Intrigued to learn about True Tsugami and how he is still alive if he apparently committed suicide too. I feel so bad for Mana and Shouichi right now. Anyways can't wait for more.

Watched Gaim 8-10, and I'm liking how the story's going. That and it's cool to see all the Riders henshin in the same episode.

"I've analyzed all the abilities of this form of W."

That was the first thing Philip said after transorming into Xtreme. That's how they instantly know all their abilities like the Prism Bicker and sword. One of Xtremes abilities is when it's center glows and reflects colour, Philip is analyzing something completely. Like scanning it. Xtreme is one of those final forms that really feels like an ultimate form because of what it can do.

I don't remember the full line but I swear he says that line in reference to the opponent, not himself.

It's actually both.

The TV-Nihon quote is "I have read everything about this form of W and the enemy."

W 33.

This is probably the first genuinely good episode since episode 28. It's slumps like this that make me glad I'm not watching it weekly. It was just really nice to just have a good story again. Y'know? I'm guessing this might be unpopular opinion, and you don't have to agree with me, but I feel like the show really lost its way since Accel found himself.

Sure it's had some dramatic reveals, and exciting wrap ups, but the core and heart of the story, what it all began with, that had gotten lost somewhere. It was once a story of a normal guy, and his super computer partner saving the people of the city they love, in the name of the man that was their hero. Sure the action was small, and the stakes never reached any dizzying heights, but it had heart and soul and I loved it all the same. It's something I've missed from the show, for a while.

So to get an episode where the crux of the show wasn't in the action, or the new powers, but just a compelling well paced mystery that clicked beautifully into place, full of twists, turns and emotional resonance. It was pretty wonderful.

Some stray thoughts:

It's kinda weird, that so late in the show, they seem to be trying to make Phillip's trips to the Gaia Library more interesting with him running through it to dramatic music, or his words not correlating to text but to video clips.

The gay overtones in this show are glorious, especially now Sho and Phillip 'become one' and when the battle is done, Phillip steps out from behind him. :lol

"I don't dislike it." I'm definitely gonna use that next time my best friend asks me if I like how she dyed her hair THIS time :lol

First of all, God damn I have fallen behind in this thread. Like, several pages. But I was trying to avoid all the spoilers that were getting thrown out for Kiva and another show or two I've yet to get through and just..yeah.

You're not completely alone Locke. Though it probably is at the bottom of the list for seasons I've watched, I do still like Wizard, probably more than most seemed to have, it was, afterall, what really got me interested in jumping into the fandom.

Funny enough, that's a pretty solid example of why I don't really get the love for the SIC line. It takes a design and makes it look mushy and dirty. Like someone with greasy hands took a clay representation of a suit and kinda squished it up a bit with their fingertips or something. I dunno, I just do not get it.

And yeah, all these W recaps are making me want to rewatch it so bad haha. Was such a great season, probably my second or third favorite, right alongside Hibiki and just above Fourze, but not quite on the same level as Ryuki.

Anyways, yeah I still haven't really gotten around to watching anything recently save for the latest Gaim when the subs first went up. Kinda in another bit of a lull period I guess. I mean it was quite a while between watching Ryuki, Wizard finishing it's run, and me starting up Hibiki so I guess this is akin to that for me.

I'm liking Kabuto and I'm still really early in the show's run so I still am at that introductory stage where a lot can happen I guess. Gaim is continuing to be amazing. Dragon Knight I've all but given up on. I really want to try and watch Kiva all the way through, I only made it a few episodes in. And I really feel like I need to give OOO another shot. So many people love that damn season and I feel kinda off that I've barely been able to get myself to try it.

I'm looking to start watching KR, which series do you peeps recommend I start with?

Kamen Rider Ryuki or Kamen Rider W.

I will second the recommendation of W, but I cannot recommend Ryuki as a first season. While I absolutely love it, and if you are interested in the season then by all means make sure to watch it at some point, but it is not a good introduction to the franchise.

W is the best of both worlds between the darker tone the older seasons had and the more fun, lighthearted feeling you get with today's Kamen Rider.

Fourze is another season I like recommending. It was fun in a way that was just really endearing and didn't get obnoxious or feel too, again I hate using this word, "kiddy". It manages to have some genuinely dark and dramatic moments as well, and has one of the strongest starts to any season I've watched.

Beyond that though, I recommend just taking a bit of a look at the different riders, their motifs, the themes (as in...W has sort of a noir-inspired detective angle to it, not the theme songs), maybe read a brief description of the general plot (obviously avoiding any spoilers you can) and pick one that looks interesting to you.

The only ones I would say to hold off on watching are Ryuki, Decade, and, to an extent, Hibiki. Decade is an anniversary season, and one most people don't actually care for, watching it first does a discredit to the seasons before it and a lot of it just wouldn't make sense (what little you can make sense of it anyways). Ryuki and Hibiki aren't really your typical season, with the latter feeling more like a showa era season and even at times not really like Kamen Rider. Ryuki is my absolute favorite Kamen Rider season period, but it's different, dark, and again it just doesn't feel quite like a season of Kamen Rider, not in the more traditional sense. It has some amazing characters, which really are the driving point of the series, but whereas most seasons of Kamen Rider focus on the henshin hero, fighting monsters, leading up to some confrontation with a big bad or something of the like, Ryuki focuses much more on the characters, their relationships and how they grow, their conflicts amongst themselves, it's rider vs rider with the monsters being almost incidental.

W, OOO, and Den-O are good first series. They're solid intros to the workings and MO of Kamen Rider.

That's a shockingly immature way of describing it. "Greasy hands?" Seriously?

SIC is awesome because it's organic. The "dirt" is for a weathered, washed look that exemplifies detail. It's not so much a suit, it's a body.
SIC, actually, looks better to me in most cases. It takes silly, basic designs like Xtreme and makes them cool. Wheras the real Xtreme has silly little shoulder pads and a dinky sheild, the SIC makes it huge and greebly. They're like biomechanical bugmen, with a "carapace" design to the legs and shoulderpads and chest and stuff. Granted I didn't post a very good picture, leaving out the fine details that make SIC great, but if it wasn't for SIC I would never have given Kamen Rider the time of day past Skull. SIC makes everything dramatic and cool, like making Cyclone's scarf super long, or really heroic proportions in the armour.

They're art. Hand-sculpted, creative, unique art that takes something and makes it wild and, well, imaginative. Hell, I wouldn't own any W stuff were it not for SIC, as the Figuarts for W are garbage.

I think that's a bit extreme. I think they look good for the time period they came out (black joints on cyclone's half nonwithstanding)

but yeah, SICs are cool looking. Take PuToTyra for example. I don't like the design, but I think the SIC looks epic and monstrous.

W 34.

Okay, this wrap up wasn't nearly as strong as the opening but I think this is still overall one of my favourite arcs, largely because the twists and turns were seemingly endless, but rather than feeling shocking for the sake of shocking, or convoluted for the sake of being convoluted it seemed every twist had been carefully though out, with every twist clicking with a satisfying pang of realisation.

Plus Kirihiko was a character who I ended up falling in love with, right before he died, which seemed completely intentional but I was also sad that after one of the seemingly major villains, died very early on, long before he blossomed into exactly what you thought he was going to blossom into, he was never really mentioned again.

Not only this, but his death is violent, by the woman he loves and he actually goes down as a hero, not a villain. A left field, surprise, genuinely well played death like this surely seems like the START of a story, rather than the end of one but despite all the interesting details of his death, he was just replaced by Weather, I guess kinda like what they did with Phoenix and Gremlin and I didn't like it when they did it there, either. His death felt like a waste.

So I was really happy when this arc remembered he existed, and attempted to have repercussions for his death - something we sadly never got in Wizard's mess of an ending. If anything, despite what I said, I kinda wish this arc actually came LATER because I kinda knew from the get go, that as Taboo and Weather are more of the big bads than the actual big bad, and as we aren't on the final leg yet, the plot would never give Kirihiko's sister a break.

Plus the action really was great. I think the smaller budget really strains on bigger battles, because Weather completely schools the both of them but I never really feel his power, despite him kicking Sho and Ryu around the screen but still overall, it has very entertaining action sequences for a show that makes no attempt to hide the fact that it isn't really about the action.

Similarly, I don't like upgrade forms that get some flashy weapon and that is all they use - like the Goseiger super modes, where all the personal identity was stripped away and everyone fought the same, despite that making no sense - W was never a swordsman so it makes no sense for him to suddenly become one. As such, I enjoyed that he actually put down his sword and shield and relaxed into his more usual brawling style, and one of the coolest Rider Kicks he's had, and it's when he does that that he gets the upper hand on Weather.

Also, as an aside, ignoring the reversal thing, what is Taboo's power? Like Terror has that fear goo, Clay Doll basically can't die, Weather can control well...the weather. But Taboo can...shoot lasers and fly? Seems she got shafted almost as much as Nazca with his 'I can move fast and get a cool sword' Memory.

Taboo and Nazca never really get a definition of what their powers were supposed to be.

Agito 46: This had one of my least favorite and most favorite moments of Shouichi in this episode. Least favorite of wanting to discard his Agito powers but I understand why. Most favorite is punching out the Man of Darkness and wanting to still fight. Other part I loved was Hojo going into the G3 trailer and helping Hikawa fight even with losing his vision, I know there is a sort of weird friendship there and I'm glad Hojo did that. I love that Hikawa believes in Agito and knew Shouichi would come back. Hikawa still wanted to protect lives and fought even though he knew the risks. Also I loved how his machine gun helped break through the Man of Darkness' barrier. Ryou is a great hero in saving Mana even without his powers and keeping her safe the whole time against the Unknown. I'm so glad Gills is back and his awesome leg drop finisher. Kino is such a layered character that makes him even more intriguing and awesome; I love how he helped save Shouichi's life and inspire Masumi to become a Doctor too. Glad Mana helped inspire Shouichi too and her Uncle helped her too I think. The characters are amazing in this series.

W's a great choice, but if you want something a little earlier I'd recommend Agito.

Although not many will agree with me on this, for consistent quality I'd start with Wizard. It isn't the BEST show, but unlike a lot of toku, it doesn't get so a bumbling start before exploding into epicness half way through and it doesn't start at eleven and crash and burn mid way through. Wizard is just...Wizard.

And I think Wizard's design is very good, and most of the Phantoms (at least as far as I've seen) are good too.

That helps as well. For a Kamen Rider show Wizard is very action heavy and action focused, while many other Rider shows pull in the action back for the sake of greater amounts of drama, which I appreciate, but you may want something more 'fun' focused to start with.

Wizard uses his motorbike to create a giant mech dragon Rider Kick. It's pretty damn amazing.

I wish he did it more often. I'm trying to remember just how often Haruto actually went inside of someone's..I honestly forget what they called it, to fight their inner phantom. That's something that seemed to get dropped for the most part as the series went on if I am remembering things right.

But yeah, Wizard isn't a terrible starting point. Hell it was my starting point, though that was towards the start of the season's run.

It's not the best season, but it isn't really bad either. It just has a bit of wasted potential I suppose, a few really obvious twists, but I enjoyed it.

The Underworld only played a focus, what, 7 times?

It was their Underworld. And yeah it was kinda awkwardly dropped for long stretches and then brought back without a word. I dunno, I guess I'd still rather that than like how W started with those horrible giant battles and then just never mentioned them again after the first few episodes.

But yeah Wizard is far from the best series, but its heavy action focus and lack of extreme peaks and troughs (they still exist, but not quite as dramatically as say OOO or Fourze) make it a good show to begin with and it's a show I love a lot, even if it isn't my favourite.

W 35.

Yay Ryu focus! Although I loved episode 28 (probably the best episode of the whole show) and Ws ability to defy conventions I must admit I haven't really liked the way Ryu has been handled.

They tried so desperately to wriggle free from conventions, they kinda forget what the point of conventions are for a good writer, as such some of the story lost its punch.

I think Weather is a little OP, personally. I love the way he uses his powers - and I'm not saying he is a bad villain, having a villain who is so unrelentingly brutal and evil in modern Heisei land is something special - but the power scale for the second half of the show is all over the map.

First we had Ryu being stronger than Sho, then Sho activated Xtreme, then Ryu fell right behind and the whole time Weather has been kicking their asses. The fact that Xtreme is like this over nine thousand upgrade and it's only just allowed them to scratch Weather is just insane.

This was probably some of the best giant stuff we've seen in this show, though. It was so cool seeing Sho actually ride his shield through the air and that Gunner thing is so cute.

W 36.

What a great episode. I think Trial may be one of the best upgrades I have ever seen. Not only visually, but thematically as well. I don't really get why they bothered to make vengeance cop into some kind of motorbike swordsman, but if I swallow that logic, it makes perfect sense for his upgrade to be entirely speed focused - kinda like Kabuto's cast off I guess. As much as I adore Xtreme W, it isn't exactly the most logical step up, but I couldn't imagine Accel upgrading into anything else.

Plus holy crap is it captured wonderfully, I love how for his Maximum Drive he is basically just completely untapped, raw, speed for ten seconds so he just utterly pummels the enemy. It's amazing though that the Rider he became to defeat Weather wasn't enough, and he actually had to get an upgrade just to beat him. Shroud!!!!

Also, I thought Wizard had some of the best looking fighting of all the shows. It was showy, but usually in a convincing enough way that to me it felt like it was actually part of the fighting, rather than being showy for showy-sake, which is far too common.

I agree, the way he would chain his Rings together and the cool touches on his attacks and stuff was really fun. But best of all, it was a really stylishly shot and directed series which adds a lot more to the fighting than you would expect. It's just a shame his form changes weren't more exciting.

How not?

And yes, Trial is my favourite Secondary rider Upgrade ever. Regular Accel still hold a special place in my stinky heart, btu Trial kicks ass. And best of all, it's not just a repaint with a few new additions. All new suit.

Well I get the whole combine the memories for rainbow powers thing, but the whole sword and shield thing is pretty out of left field. They could have upgraded his gun or his staff, or combined them together or whatever. Like I'm saying, I'm not complaining, Xtreme is cool as hell but Trial just feels...logical.

Shame the SHFs for Accel are no good, really wanna represent him on my shelf.

And the best part of Terui's takedown of Weather, is that it wasn't driven by revenge. It was driven by the desire to protect.

I really do wish they used him better. Although the character arc was fine, I would have loved to have seen more of Ryu's transformation from angsty rage filled warrior of vengeance to actually looks sorta like a handsome Kamen Rider Chalice and is actually a pretty great dude who gives hope to random chicks he meets in the zoo, warrior of peace and love.

Black.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The Accel SHFs are the best that came out of the W line. They are absolutely worth getting. Trial is my favorite of the bunch, closely followed by Booster.

I just set myself up a schedule so I can try to be a lot more consistent in my toku watching. I'm going to focus on Faiz twice a week, once a week for Gaim since everybody says it's amazing (I haven't felt that way yet, but I'm only 3 episodes in), and once a week I'm going to set time aside to work on rewatching Kiva and W.

I'm curious to see how long I can stick to my schedule before I get lazy and sit and play games all night or reading.

As I recall, Trial was one of the better ones. While it's dated, and it's sculpting seemed weaker of stuff like the belt, it is generally accurate, at least in not inaccurate in any glaring way. (example, the helmet is fairly justified in the SHF) The proportions are off, but also not way off. The metallic finish is nice, too.

I think he's refering to when I mentioned base Accel's dreadfully inaccurate helmet. But Booster DOES come with a replacement, but, well, you gotta get another figure.

So Trial but not base then?

Speaking of Faiz, I think I'm gonna watch that after W, I've watched like the first five episodes about fifty times but have always got distracted by something else. But by pushing myself into the middle of W and finding a wonderful show, I now have the same motivation for Faiz.

I'm enjoying Faiz. But then we've already established I'm not nearly as critical a viewer as you are.

I love the tech of the belts, all the extra gadgets. I didn't care much for the suit design, until shortly before I started watching the show, but it's really grown on me, seeing it in action.

I recall seeing many people say it's biggest flaw is the characters don't talk to each other about stuff, which causes them problems, so it's frustrating that their issues could be resolved if they'd just talk, but I haven't seen that yet.

The main characters are pretty hard to like for the first few episodes, but I'm starting to like them (Mari least of all, but I didn't like her in Kiva either, and I wonder if that is affecting my opinion of her in this show).

I like Kiba and Yuka, and the weird Smart Brain chick that also played one of the characters in Ryuki (she was also in one of the Den-O arcs).