Actually from what I read in other discussions yeah, your joke is probably right, the plot of Kabuto had to undergo some pretty heavy unplanned revisions. Well yeah Negishi's plan had another opposite other than the theme characters like Tsurugi and Reina went through (species-wise), but as this is a confrontation between the main protagonist and antagonist, this is done here where Negishi, the T̶e̶n̶d̶o̶u̶ ̶f̶a̶n̶ unassuming Native but turns out to be the mastermind, had well-intention, but has xenophobia in mind to treat humans and Natives with double standard that leads him doing horrible means to achieve it, where while humans did do horrible stuff, Negishi thinks that only humans are capable of doing that and has unpleasant nature, and neglect the Natives (and also, H̶o̶p̶p̶e̶r̶ ̶b̶r̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶s̶ irl edgelords can comment like this if they see a fictional species breaking down humans' flaws).

But the ones who propose the peace and worked on that plan is also a living being. They are as flawed as the rest of humans, some more than others. They have not proven themself any more capable as peacemakers than anyone else. In fact, whenever they were in power, things seem to be far worse. One of the key to change is that, you yourself should acknowledge your own flaws and change first (although... coming from Tendou, someone who didn't have drastic change through the series due to him already being perfect while the others are using him as benchmark), instead of being self-righteous and pinning mistakes on everyone else. But still for your talk about Tendou viewing personal achievement as societal good, character education is necessary too to go with that. Someone can improve your intelligence by working hard, but without good character? They may turn into something like, bomber.

Yeah, the final fight feels lackluster here, for one simple thing, there are no Clock-Up here?! This even happens in phase 1 series too where the powerset is more simple compared to phase 2, the fighters (should going all out with the fights between the worst enemies) not utilizing their power efficiently. For what you said about this being something that fits more in Faiz, this is also the similar complaint about the fight with Orphnoch King at the end. Gryllus Worm has tentacles and seems to live up physical power wise, where he's able to resist Maximum Hyper Typhoon and break the Perfect Zecter by that, but there's something that is usually significantly more dangerous than brute strength, which is super speed, and every Worm has that in Clock-Up. And big bosses (uhh, if you refer to Negishi, he's not the big boss, Gryllus Worm is, Negishi is the second-in command to Mishima, Mishima's the main antagonist) have even more than that, like Caucasus' Hyper Clock-Up which makes base Rider's Clock-Up slow as a snail, and before, the sub final boss of the series, Cassis Worm, which can outright stop time, and had Tendou use trickery to deal with him. It's underwhelming not to have the most important and deadly powerset in this series take part in the final fight here, and also ways about it to counter Clock-Up or even Hyper Clock-Up like Caucasus and Cassis Worm did.

They made Souji Kusakabe's redemption here, though it being plausible or not is debatable. Many of redemptions are unfortunately forced one yeah, and which is why I can agree with you too for keeping assholes the way they're on the series. But well, Negishi is a fodder Worm, he's nobody in fighting capabilities, so he'd die that easily like other fodder Worms did, and like Souji Kusakabe himself which is a Native. And that's probably why the sacrifice is nonsense too here; fodder Native like Negishi wouldn't have stood a chance against the Riders like Dark Kabuto.

Misaki inherits Discabil to honor Tsurugi along with Jiiya. And so Tadokoro being related to food is something in Yonemura's mind as well... (it's first revealed in Inoue episode, that can make characters OOC or away from their usual plot sometimes). And Daisuke, due to actor too, is gone for a good number of time in the series, but he arrives here suddenly being amiable with everyone else (unlike Gon who still has bratty traits here by boasting about her beauty), granted that a good number of people there are women but still. This goes for Misaki too regarding him even with Daisuke pulling his usual nonsense, them sitting together in a table, along with Tadokoro too. And previously Misaki also outright hugged Kagami, when while she cares for him, she can put him beneath him (in ep. 40) and treats him as subordinate. Hiyori and Juka are now officially sisters too, both being Tendou's own.

Kagami here is interacting with nobodies though in contrast to the cast? (to show Kagami's ideals though this has to be done, have him interact with strangers like this instead of the people he already know like friends or family such as Daisuke on Bistro La Salle, filled mostly with girls). He's completely isolated from the other cast here. Kagami's job isn't necessarily about caregiver role, police is more about enforcing rules (and being strict) but Kagami makes full use of it to give the caring for the children as they happen to walk over a crossroad, which Kagami takes a part in.

Because actor problem in real life again, like Hiyori and Daisuke's, Yusuke Yamamoto has an issue with the agency team. He also was tested positive for coronavirus in July 2020, but he had been cured.

I think Kusakabe wanted his revenge to be his last act since it was the only thing motivating him. After being abandoned by Hiyori, there was nothing left in the world to give him a reason to stay and that's why he decided to entrust the world and Hiyori to Tendo. It's like the opposite of a human living on in a Worm, with Kusakabe choosing to live on in Tendo who could have the future he was denied.

Don't forget the added flavor that comes from eating it under a bridge!

It's a pretty consistent problem in the second half of Kabuto, but it definitely stings here. To have Clock Up not enter into the final fight at all... it adds to this feeling of Did You All Forget What Show You Were Making that I kept coming back to over the final three episodes.

I really liked that Kagami was too dedicated to his job of protecting children to be able to hang out with everyone. (Although, my headcanon is that he was the one who called for Hiyori's lunch special. Maybe he'll finally get to taste that mackerel!!!) It shows him elevating his job into his identity, which is such a Kamen Rider thing to do, you know? Him protecting people, it's never just because he had a Zecter. He had a Zecter because he couldn't stop protecting people. Of every Rider in the cast, he was the one who always believed in people. I think that's a much sweeter note to end him on than getting teased by his friends or whatever.

I think my absolute favorite part about the lack of Clock Up in the finale is when Kagami insists on leaving Dark Kabuto behind as they make their dramatic escape as though they don't have enough time before everything explodes. While Kabuto is in Hyper Form.

I feel like Kagami remembers that Clock Up is a thing, and that Hyper Clock Up is also a thing, but he's torn between That Guy Totally Sucks and My Life Can Barely Withstand One Tendou. I think Kagami's letting Dark Kabuto burn to save his own sanity.

I do have to add that, yeah, for me the horn -makes- Kabuto. Admittedly for me american-styled superheroes have never been a massive part of my childhood, and in my life in general I only ever had a brief fixation on the MCU... and instead my aesthetics I think were mostly informed by things like Transformers. I think I've just always liked that robotic look to some degree, so Kabuto and Riders in general are just awesome to me when they have this kind of thing. Funny thing is, that whole preference for "when it looks more like a head and there's a small thing stuck on"? I'm realising that kinda sums up my top favourite main rider designs! Den-O, Kuuga, Build; and my absolute favourite Ghost all fit that description.

Best part though? ... I find Kabuto's body design to be a lot weaker and is why I go back and forth so much on how much I like Kabuto's design in general. The head is perfection in my eyes, but the body I'm always hovering between "nice and sleek; fantastic simplicity" and "this is kinda meh". I think it's probably those lines on the black parts of the legs? It's hard to argue against them because at this point I've just internalised them as a core part of the Kabuto Riders' aesthetic, but I do wonder if I'd like the Kabuto design more if those lines just weren't there and hence there were less strange details in the way of his nigh-perfect simplicity. I've got a lot of thoughts on the topic of lines on riders' legs!

Though I guess now I'm gonna look like a hypocrite, because while I agree about not being too impressed by 'masked' Hyper Kabuto aside from the head and wings... dude, that's all you need! It's like saying the Gokaigers only really stick out as designs because of their fantastic helmet design, but at some point, yeah; that does just make the design and you need little more than that! Hyper Kabuto's recently grown on me a LOT just through the strength of its most prominent elements.

I will always hate the grey lines on Kabuto's wrists and ankles, because I did the Figure-Rise kit before I watched the show and getting those goddamn stickers to look right was a nightmare I still have not recovered from.

So basically Kagami decided to sentence Dark Kabuto to death then? Man, that really is just like, the move, for this last stretch of the series. :lol

To be fair to myself, that is another one of those statements I immediately started questioning in my head as soon as I made it. Hyper Form is cool, to be sure!

Just wanna drop in and post some miscellaneous stuff.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es-0FpfU...jpg&name=large

Apparantly Zecters eats special Zect Jeely thats poisiness to people.


And Kagami has 3 jobs apparantly
https://www.reddit.com/r/KamenRider/...part_1_subbed/

Tendo what your problem?

https://www.reddit.com/r/KamenRider/...part_2_subbed/

Poor Kagami...

https://www.reddit.com/r/KamenRider/...housedon_part/

And the struggles of a waiter
https://www.reddit.com/r/KamenRider/...housedon_part/

Oh! I don't mean those grey lines, I'm pretty fine with those (though I'm sure I won't be once I get FRS Kabuto). I meant this stuff

https://i.imgur.com/8MNySDv.png

It's just a bit, like... not overdetailed, but it feels sort of unnecessary? Just making the design slightly messier than it needs to be.

If I really felt like drilling into it, I could mention that Kagami's only interactions with Dark Kabuto are as a homicidal weirdo who kidnapped/"kidnapped" Hiyori, so watching Tendou be like We Gotta Save This Cheerful Psychopath probably got a big WTF LOL No from Kagami. He wasn't ever around for Another Tendou's... rehabilitation? Is that what we're calling it?

But, no, Kagami left that guy to die because Stereo Tendous would've had him moving to France to be with his best friend.

What the Zecters are, and where they come from... that's a thing the show never really dealt with (like, where the hell did Yaguruma get two new Zecters from?!), but I'm generally okay with it.

There's a tendency in superhero costume design to try and break up big blocks of color/surface whenever possible. I'm playing the Miles Morales Spider-Man game these days (A+ game), and every costume with a large area of color always has a block of a different shade to break it up. Like, an entirely red lower half might have some darker red around the thighs, that sort of thing.

I'm just extrapolating my feelings out into an assumption about the motivation of the designer, but I think stuff like that, like the grooves in Kabuto's black pants, it creates a dimensionality that makes it all look less cheap? It feels more tactical, more costume-y, than just some tight clothes. The little shadows it generates, it makes the costume come across as... I don't know, as more professional, I think.

I'm not explaining this great!

Nah, I get what you mean; but for instance... Kuuga, Agito, Drive; they've all had very uncomplicated undersuits while the other parts of their design are much more detailed, and it works out a lot for them. Ironically I'm not very fond of Zi-O and Wizard because they're too simple, but... eh, I just wanna see Kabuto be simplified I guess!

Surprised no one's mentioned how Hyper Kabuto is asymmetrical yet. That always bugged me about its design.

Ah, yes. The extra saltiness that only comes from misery and lamentations of two former ZECT officials who got dumped by a mechanical wasp. Legend has it, not even the most concentrated spoonfuls of MSG can mimic that salty begrudging taste. :lolol

Which area? Did not know that.

Personally they resemble how insects are segmented, as seen in larvae. Surely that is not the definitive answer but I do think their is a chance they did it to invoke further insect-like aesthethics.

What are you talking about Tsurugi is dead he is not in France.

Legs

Oh yeahhhhh, dang I forgot about that. Good eye. :rock:

A common misconception! No, Tsurugi returned home to France to rebuild the Discabil dynasty. He was very sleepy after his date with Misaki, so he was unable to say goodbye to everyone before Jiiya put him on a plane.

I mean, what did you think happened, that the show took one of the most beloved comedic highlights of the series and spent an episode turning him into a suicidally depressed nihilist who the star of the show executed in front of a grieving friend? That sounds absolutely bonkers. What TV show would ever screw a character's exit up that badly?

No, pretty sure Tsurugi is in France. Check the wiki!

pretty sure he's dead, see the Wiki even says so
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...52/unknown.png

You gotta refresh that page, because it's full of typos that've since been corrected. (Maybe delete the cookies in your browser? I'm no IT guy!) Check out the current status of the Scorpio Worm page:

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...tryforreal.png

In a funny twist of fate, Tsurugi came back at this exact time to let everyon know what a great time he was having in France, and actually rescued Dark Kabuto and took him with him *to France!* He now lives as a tour guide for Paris while crashing on Tsurugi's couch, mooching of Tendou's ZECT Paychecks.

The joke was never funny

Tsurugi’s story was ALWAYS going to end in tragedy the moment he was revealed to be a worm and he had to cover the slack that Daisuke’s limited appearances caused by becoming the comic relief Rider.

'Always' is a bold claim for shows we know are (and often have to be) rewritten for week-on-week circumstances, with two big examples in Hiyori's leaving, and Daisuke's actor's limited schedule, one of which you already mentioned. Plus, writers always have a choice, and the exact way Tsurugi's tragedy played out is not something a lot of people were fond of. And if Die wants to crack jokes about the comic relief rider getting a comic relief ending that he finds funny, what's the problem?

Anyway, looking forwards to the Den-O thread! A show I've seen all the way through, and look forwards to trying to recall for deep thoughs!

Maybe because one of Tsurugi’s core characteristics was his genocidal hatred of the Worms, despite unknowingly being the Scorpio Worm that caused his hatred in the first place? And my point was that Tsurugi shifted into a comic relief character to cover the absence of Daisuke starting with his crush on Misaki, but that shift in comedy didn’t magically make him human or remove his “the only good Worm is a dead Worm” mentality when dealing with the series monsters. It’s like if Kusaka was suddenly a okay with Orphanoch if he became one, it’s a complete betrayal of this aspect of their characters.

But that doesn’t change that he was introduced as a more (comparatively) serious and hate filled character and I wouldn’t be shocked that the general story beats of his ending were planned from the start (finding out he was the Scorpio Worm and then orchestrating a scenario for his own death while getting as many Worm killed as possible)

I mean look at Ankh another character drastically changed by rewrites, saved from becoming the final major villain of the show. But he still is a villain for most of the final quarter of the show (and before that an anti-hero at best before it), he still dies in the ending and Toei still refuses 10 years later to let him be resurrected despite that they could of and not contradict Mega Max

And my reason for hating the “joke” is due to that level of disassociation of reality that he’s playing towards is how people start believing in conspiracy theories, and considering how many friendships and familial relationships have been ruined by that on my side I was never going to like it.

Kagami shows up in Paris to visit Tsurugi, sees Another Tendou cheerfully straightening up Tsurugi's apartment, gets furious, finds out that Another Tendou is paying his way with his somehow-uninterrupted ZECT paychecks, gets more furious when he finds out Dark Kabuto was actually getting paid more than Gatack.

This is a show where a heroic by-the-books team leader becomes a leather-clad nihilist who abhors happiness, and it happens entirely off-screen. I think the on-screen evolution of Tsurugi is nuanced and methodical by comparison. Definitely room in there for the show to give him a happy ending, or have there be some reconciliation between both aspects of his existence. Or maybe just an ending that doesn't suggest suicidally depressed people are correct in their thinking? I'd've settled for just that last one.

And they think Speedball's descent to Penance was shocking. Robbie Baldwin ain't got nuthin' on Yaguruma and Kageyama. :lolol

It's been a few days since I watched the last episode again and I'm still trying to decide if Goro from Mortal Kombat would've been a more or less satisfying fit for Kabuto's final boss than Gorou-chan form Ryuki. Like, obviously Mishima had an infinitely greater prior presence in the series, but I'm not sure if that automatically means he also carries more thematic weight? I guess this is A QUESTION I'm asking everybody? Like: Which Goro would you rather see fight Kabuto and Gatack at the end of the show? Personally, I think a surprise appearance by OhRed could've also made about as much sense as what they actually did, but maybe that's just me.

(Die can also feel free to skip out on answering this as karmic payback for me getting lazy about answering his questions partway into the thread.)

Goro Majima.

I’m going to say Edel form Zero Dragon Blood, because that may actually be an interesting fight.

Request partially denied.

I was trying to think of an answer, but then my mind locked onto what I really wanted from the final fight against Goro: For Kabuto and Gatack to defeat the Perfect Native, and then for him to dehenshin into a critically-wounded Kitaoka. They're confused, and we cut away to an already-dead Goro lying on a couch, flower in hand. (Renge is waiting at La Salle, adjusting the screwdriver and fidget spinner she's left out as silverware for their lunch date.)

But we didn't get that. Cowards.

Just realized I misinterpreted Fish’s question and answered with an alternate Tomohisa Yuge role, not another character called Goro.

I stand by my answer.

Uhh... so Dark Kabuto and Reina is also here? I thought otherwise, with Dark Kabuto having the personality contrast to Tendou you talked about, and Reina having that conversation with Mishima about human alliance, comparison of humans to Worm, etc. There are villains who got introduced late in the series as plot twist though, like Banno in Drive. Negishi has something up to, world peace, but is doing that on extremist way. Mishima was already into shady stuff before his rise to main villainy though, his dismissive acts to others isn't only for show, it just shows how little empathy he has to others, and he had thoughts to disregard human lives. But as a second in command he can't accomplish that yet until he overthrows, he's a Starscream type of that.

The one that tips usually consider 100% should not work, is about anyone who has perfect capabilities, dubbed Mary Sue or Marty/Gary Stu. But apparently being a jerk for that negates that... though Tendou's probably not completely immune to it (probably what you say about being arrogant know-it-all is the thing that saves him because to people it means the series is embracing the perfectness, or even worse, people thinks that if you talk big but can back it up then you aren't arrogant ._.) What interests me for Tendou in the series is something like his more ordinary methods to get the job done using his wide area of expertise to accomplish that (like being a priest). Tendou's potential protection seems to be centered around intelligence and skill, and most of the part (or sometimes looks down on) neglects the character part. That 2 alone can be dangerous, you think that potentials will only improve the world and is a societal good... but the one with high intelligence and skill, but with lack of moral, can cause disaster in society instead, like those who are intelligent but uses it to create bombs, political/company higher-ups who are abusive/rotten, etc. And the sun will also kill you if you got close to it.... which also represents Tendou that he'll smash those who gets in his way.

Kagami is the everyman of the series. And lol... who would want to achieve what Kagami did at the beginning for the achievable part, where he's someone who got berated by ZECT members for his decisions, and is viewed as unreliable and incompetent. Kagami's other main trait is his determination, like on his duty to fight and kill the Worms after Kabuto Zecter rejects him. Even though he is outperformed (for a while) by the other characters, he is still more than willing to take up arms on his own to fight. What appeals Kagami to Tendou (and what Mishima hates) isn't something that is discussed here though, which is his straightforwardness. There's a saying in discussion where Kagami is just such a good person that he can like those who screws him, which seems like making Kabuto's world done in purpose. But still to portray Kagami's or anyone's goodness more effectively to me is like the final scene where he got to interact and protect those he doesn't know, not to people like friends or family, and probably one of the times Kagami wore a bright smile, which is why I also asked about you taking that well in comparison to well, what I think is more effective to show more villainy as well, like offing any person you can find, in comparison to going only after what hinders you like Kageyama to Gon.

I guess normal toku folk (not me, and I'd be against this mindset) would rather for it being a story that is about Tendou than her perhaps... a badass hero who mows anything in their path. Moreover, I'm afraid that those who have social anxiety, not speaking her mind much, the one that needs help, garners hatred due to them hitting too close to home, due to seeing the fiction as wish fulfillment. With the highlights being growing a friendship and restoring her faith, could the logical conclusion of that being, the happy self we see on...uh.. God Speed Love?? And most of other Kabuto discussions I've seen mostly talks about solely Tendou. Now you here refer to her as rude, but you're against me doing that at the beginning part of the talk of the show... A̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶I̶n̶o̶u̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶b̶a̶b̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶m̶i̶s̶s̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶,̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶w̶o̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶f̶o̶l̶l̶o̶w̶ ̶s̶u̶i̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶h̶i̶m̶?̶

Tsurugi is Tendou 2.0, inferior one but he got more development. Yaguruma at first takes the lead with Kageyama as his underling, but the Hoppers had them switched around with Kageyama wearing down on Yaguruma. Sorry wdym about saying things you believed in? (I know ep. 46 is her being good one, but any others?). Juka's feeding is the luckiest alive to get free 5 star meals due to her being one of the person that Tendou shows full compassion to. Hiyori is already an excellent cook from the beginning, but I wonder if both sisters would receive Tendou's full blessing and became hypercompetent too (Juka at least is the top of her class).

This part is talked about where well, ZECT created it. I mean it's named "ZECT" after all, of course something they create (not always, but this one...) will have something that references it. To be more specific, Natives created it but, well yeah there's not more going into it. Where Yaguruma got 2 new Zecters is something that I have wonders on, and also probably ZECT if they kept them too.

Uhh... episode 46...

And I don't know if those weekly viewers feel the same like this for this real life events that influenced the show (at the time of Kabuto's airing). Renge was the show's choice as an attempt ro replace Hiyori btw. How about characters like Daisuke though for the real life events (him focusing on music career)?

My point in that paragraph (that was from over a week ago so I had to reread) wasn't that there aren't villains, or that the villains aren't characters. It's that the villains don't have long-term schemes (what exactly do the Worms want, and how are they going to get it ) or demonstrable arcs. Worm Widow has some nice scenes, but there's never really a sense of what she's doing to further her goals beyond her current actions. Dark Kabuto is an intriguing villain... for literally two episodes. After that, he recedes to the background until he sacrifices himself. And Negishi is in maybe four episodes, one of which is for only one scene! These are not great series-long villains!

I wish it wasn't left to a viewers interpretation in the series but going by how they act and their animalistic intelligence the Worm are an invasive species that act solely on their aggressive instincts. They're essentially the Helheim forest from Gaim when you exclude DJ Sagara from the equation. Going to other planets to continuously expand as a species and to appropriate anything and everything they can from the dominate species of these planets by killing and replacing them to make up for their relative stupidity.

So, I don't disagree with you (that's definitely their overall behavior: multiply, replace, repeat), but that in and of itself is a huge narrative problem. For a season-long plot to have any momentum to it, there needs to be more at play emotionally than just survival or extermination. Without the Worms having a perspective, a voice, a strategy, a consistent metaphor, anything... I mean, what in that struggle is worth paying attention to? It's the difference between fly-fishing and Moby Dick.

And, to use your example, Gaim knew that Helheim itself wasn't a super compelling threat, so the show had a variety of warring Riders (if you'll pardon the term) as well as Helheim survivors. Helheim was background noise, baseline threats, not the narrative engine of the series.

And this is the reason people at best consider Kabuto a popcorn series that's all style and spectacle over substance.

I guess I'd push back a little on that appraisal by highlighting the problem as the season-long villain arc, not necessarily the show itself. The show has plenty to recommend it for, not the least of which are the hero arcs. Tendou and Kagami have outstanding stories devoted to their individual development, as well as their friendship. Hiyori gets some intriguing spotlights in the first half. Drake and Gon's story is worth a show of its own. Tsurugi is an adorable jerk becoming an adorable hero. Even Yaguruma and Kageyama's story has some exciting, unpredictable notes in it.

Like, I think the show is still great, even if the lack of thought/care/energy/interest put into the season-long villain arc is a problem.