I haven't watched Blade but man I love the suits in that show, and the monster designs.

It's just, this is all sort-of my job? Like, digging into why I think something works (or doesn't work) and trying to explain that to people, that's basically what selling books to people is all about?

If someone comes in and says they liked a particular Batman story, I can always just sell them another Batman story. But, eventually, that's going to wear thin. That person's going to want something beyond Batman stories. (NOTE: Not all people! Some of them legitimately just want Batman stories forever!) So what I need to do is figure out what inside that Batman story that they were responding to. Was it the art, the writing, the tone, the duration, the twists, the themes... what about that story resonated with that person, and then what other stories have those same elements?

The other big part of the job is recommendations, and that's trying to find hidden gems that people might overlook. So that's just reading something, figuring out if it's something I like, and then trying to convey what about it that I liked to someone else. It's never "here's what happened in the story", but what about the story is worth experiencing, or what someone might like about it.

All of this, watching something and trying to understand it, trying to figure out what it's trying to say, trying to communicate that to other people, that's just how my brain works all the time now.

He took the fourth-longest to die, so he's got some positive traits.

Noted!

Wow, I really love reading analysis of things and frankly your experience and skill with it shows even in just skimming your threads. It's just really nice to see you dive into all aspects of the media, catching things other might not.

Thanks! It's been very fun being able to discuss these shows with other fans!

Just never ever ever expect me to be able to talk about music in a show, or why a particular song works. It's my one* weakness!

(*: so many more than one)

Agreed. I enjoyed watching along so much that I'm planning to keep up with that as Die goes through the rest of the OG Heisei era.*

*Excluding certain episodes of Hibiki.**

**Assuming Die doesn't break with tradition and actually becomes the first person to listen to me when I say not to watch past 29.

Yeah, what he said, is overall commonly what you'd hear from regular KR fans regarding Faiz.

For it biting Takumi in the ass, I would mean for something like Yuji disposing Takumi while he's off guard, so I don't get it what'd you mean by failings.

I (and probably those people) mean in a more literal sense, they've said it before that Orphnoch King would mean either Orphnoch or human extinct, with Orphnoch King still alive, that 2 can easily happen, especially that it seems that any of the cast except Kageyama didn't know that he survived. Sooner or later it could be that it happens for real after Orphnoch King returns, especially with the cast not knowing about him he can work in the shadows undetected, humans (the whole Team Faiz, orphan, etc.) extinct for Orphnochs, then Orphnochs extinct due to their short lifespan. Wiped out life on Earth.

Probably from what I catch, he's shouldn't be someone who's not biased for friends only. Confiding on a friend more than stranger may be plausible, but should probably not stooping to low level to actually harm others for it (not counting calling others out like Kaido for plausible reasons at the beginning).

That's awesome! Thanks! I hope we all have fun watching Blade! I think the costume is pretty neat!

I guess by "fail" I mean that he'd let Takumi down, or be unworthy of the chance he was given. I think we're saying the same thing? I don't think it's Takumi's fault if Yuuji attacks him after that.

Since I feel like this is going to come up, it's a different situation to me than with Sawada. With Sawada, it was Takumi and Mari putting their head in a lion's mouth, rather than letting the lion live and staying out of its way.

I just don't feel like there's a ton of benefit in taking the Orphnoch King literally at this point? There's nothing to him, and the danger is largely theoretical. If it bugs people that his threat isn't definitively ended... okay? They're not wrong? It just doesn't bother me at all. I'm never going to be asking for more Orphnoch King, you know?

MAD. SCIENTISTS. KIDNAPPED. TAKKUN.

They're lucky they only got an iron to the face!

You didn't hear? That's just a fake made by editing a Build costume. The actual design for Blade is completely different.

Whoops, I'm pretty sure those are both Kamen Rider Saber. I copied over the wrong link from the wrong tab. Sorry! I meant to say that this image of Kamen Rider Blade has me pretty excited to see him in action!

Ooooookay, I missed a lot since the last time I posted. Not really going to be able to say everything I want to at this point (everyone has been saying lots of good things I wish I had time to directly comment on!), but the main takeaway right now is that Die did actually end up feeling better by the end. Like, way better. I legitimately didn't think this would happen, but I'm seriously happy it did. Partly because, you know, it'd just a supreme bummer if barely mitigated disappointment was the note Die left Faiz on after all this time, and also because, purely for my own sake, I absolutely adore Faiz, and have always felt its finale does a lot of things very very right that I never see given any credit. So seeing Die pop in here with a beautifully written post all about how the emotional resolutions and thematic work of episode 50 of Faiz shine so brightly any quibbles with the plot suddenly seem like a minor concern was a pretty great feeling! There's not a whole lot I can add on to it! Although I will link to the series wrap-up I did after my rewatch of Faiz, which contains a ton of my thoughts on the characters and why the show works so well for me.

I do have one thing to add, though. After all that talk about the symbolic use of that screen, I have to do my duty and point out the final two episodes of the show were directed by... Ryuuta Tasaki. Because, you know, he's pretty darn good at what he does too, I just haven't gotten the chance to mention it a lot in this thread. I think Die will find he also did a darn good job with Paradise Lost in a bit.

Takumi breaking out of a screen was right in the opening this whole time, too, but what's also of note is that it's the visual the entire series ends on. I've never been too sure what exact significance that's supposed to have beyond looking nice, but going by all the very smart stuff Die said, it's maybe become obvious?. If the screen in Takumi and Yuuji's conversation represents basically all the negative things Takumi has learned to move beyond through all his character development, then that final visual of the show, him, Mari, and Keitarou all enjoying some peaceful time together, framed through a gap in the screen, maybe that's the "small happiness" Soeno was talking about? Like there's just the most simple, humble sort of joy of these three people lying on a hill, and the more the bad things seems to dwarf it, the clearer it becomes that it will never truly be engulfed. Or something? This is all probably reading way too much into things, but Die went and put me in a very analytical mood!

https://i.imgur.com/4gyz6O1l.png

Faiz's last episode, though, it really is a good one. I'm very much in the same boat of not even being able to care about the Orphenoch King plotline when the stuff that springs out of it is so wonderful. I said after episode 17 that "people having to make difficult choices about what they value and how they want to live their lives in a world that refuses to provide easy solutions is just about the raw essence of this show", and my foreknowledge of how everything plays out is maybe why I was bummed Dark Yuuji wasn't immediately working out for Die. It's hard to remember, but I may well have been just as disinterested in him for those few episodes when I first saw the series. The finale is really what makes it click into place, for sure. The concept of the Orphenochs being doomed to an early grave might seem to go against the show's idea of coexistence at first, but I see it as basically the ultimate expression of Faiz's overall attitude. It's extolling very idealistic values through a seemingly cynical, heavily pessimistic lens, and that's what makes Takumi's big declaration that he's going to live his live with everything he's got work so well. Faiz is a dark show, but that only adds weight to the statement it lands on, which is that it's worth holding on to your values, no matter how miserable that path can seem. Takumi starts out as this deeply sarcastic anti-hero, but by the end, he's unironically saying his greatest wish is making the world a happier place. The show ultimately leaves it ambiguous how much time he has left to make that happen (people take note of the blurry vision in the last scene, but often fail to notice the lack of any ash on his hands), but as Die pointed out, that's just not what matters to the story, which is really all that needs to be said about the issues with the plotting in the final stretch. They simply can't undo the poignancy Faiz's story was packed with.

also I get they wanted to do a moral grey story but the problem is all the Orphenocs other than Takumi who didn't want to kill people die, so the only noteworthy ones by the end were the ones who were evil other than Takumi, and the heroes are all unlikable assholes/idiots it's telling that when Kiba kills Kusaka your not like "NO KIBA DON'T YOUR BETTER THIS" your like "that son of a bitch had it coming a mile away" because of how awful Kusaka has been to Kiba the whole show or in general. Your not supposed to be rooting for the bad guy during his Moral Event Horizon crossing event. TBF I do like how you suggested this is more or less due to him never growing past his hatred

Aw, thanks! I don't like fighting with Kamen Rider shows!

Well, Kaido's still around, and that dude became a much better person by the end of the show. He became a hero!

If you found the characters unlikeable, I can't really argue with that opinion. I will say that you are definitely supposed to dislike Kusaka, so the flaw in the storytelling is more that Yuuji's actions don't feel that conflicted in the moment, and that I can't really dispute.

Overall, though, I guess I just found the cast, flawed as they all were, very easy to invest in emotionally? If they don't click with you, they don't click with you. For me, I cared a lot about the decisions Takumi and Yuuji made over the course of the show.

And, I don't know, I don't think it was that morally grey by the end? There's a lot of the show that is building Takumi into a Kamen Rider, and that means that he has to learn all of the empathy, patience, resolve, and dedication that seems more innate in other characters. This series was more like a prequel for a Faiz Year One that never got made. It entertains a lot of different ideas, but it definitely lands on morals like Help People, Care About Your Friends, Allow Others To Feel Safe, Don't Judge Others, and so on. It's a show about exploring those ideas, not suggesting that they're irrelevant or optional.

Hero Kaido is only just a notch below Funky Kaido for the title of "Best Kaido."

KAMEN RIDER 555 SERIES OVERVIEW

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/faizextraa.png

--1--

I wanted to start this off by talking about how Faiz is a hard series to love. Like its protagonist, it's prickly, sullen. It has to be cajoled into doing the most basic Kamen Rider shit, and even then it never lets you forget how much it doesn't care about that shit. Over time, you get used to it, and it opens up more, and it leads to some really emotionally-exposed storytelling. All that taciturn ambivalence is revealed as a mask over a beating heart, and it ends happily, earnestly. You gotta meet it on its terms, but you'll be rewarded if you do.

Except, man, I don't know if that was my experience? At all?

I mean, some of it. It's definitely a show that tries to keep you at a distance. It does a lot of stuff in ways that seem contradictory, or suboptimal. It's playful, if you're feeling generous, or scatterbrained, if you aren't. It's a complex show, just on a What Story Are They Trying To Tell level.

But, if the show was Takumi, I felt like Keitaro. I loved it from the start, saw all of the ways it could get better, and thrilled as it grew into a Real Kamen Rider. And, like Keitaro, I loved it for its flaws, for its weirdness, for the way it made you fight for its affection. It made some bonkers choices over its run, and while it may not have been 100% successful in those choices, it was rarely boring.

--2--

A ton of that is in the characters and casting, though. I started with Ex-Aid, so Highly Charismatic Yet Insufferable Assholes? Uh, yes. Every cell in my body is saying yes to that. To quote the queen of being a monster that I can't stop watching, Kageyama, "I have a weak spot, after all, for troubled young boys."

Takumi is a fascinating lead, and it was an awesome journey to see him become a Kamen Rider. I rarely felt like he was rude for no reason, or standoffish without having cause. His story was one of self-acceptance, of proving to himself what his friends already saw. It took him 50 episodes, but he learned to accept himself, and allow others to accept him. It's a small thing, maybe, for a whole series. It's very internal, maybe tough to dramatize. But I loved seeing him struggle to be understood, to let people in. It never felt like work to me, getting to know him better.

Mari... Mari got asked to carry a lot of shit plots in this show. All of the Ryusei School stuff was just the weakest, thinnest material, and her storylines with Kusaka are intensely problematic. And yet! She managed to find little pockets of truth, little ways to recenter the story onto her fears, her traumas. Plus, just some outstandingly self-confident energy. Mari always knew who she was and what she wanted, basically from the jump. She was always the secret (or maybe not so secret) boss of Team Faiz, and I respect the show a lot for that choice.

Keitaro is the show's moral center. If you ever, ever think the show is too cruel or too bleak or too nihilistic or too morally bankrupt, look at Keitaro. He's a joke in the beginning, but his optimistic worldview and boundless empathy are impossible to extinguish. He has a resolve that's unmatched on this show, and it's no surprise that Takumi's eventual goal as a Rider is to make Keitaro's dream a reality. There's a lot of ways that the show needles Keitaro, or introduces characters that sneer at his dream. But it validates Keitaro's dream at the end, saying Yeah, making the whole world happy is a pretty great thing to want, and maybe we'd all be better seeing the world like Keitaro.

But it's Kusaka who seems to get all of the attention, which is maybe why Faiz as a show has the reputation it does? I recall folks being very very excited when Kaixa shows up on the show, and he's a lot of fun at first. At first. But his worldview is hollow, his heroism cobbled together from narcissistic rage and abandonment issues. The joke, if you can call it that, is that Kusaka seems to have a more Standard Hero outlook than Takumi, but Kusaka is a villain. His determination is just a lack of mercy. His protection is just possession. It's fascinating to see the layers peeled back, but the show is definitely not putting up Kusaka as a hero. He's in the shape of a hero, but only to deconstruct those signifiers.

Kaido takes a long time to come into focus. He's hilarious, for sure. Best comedic performer on the show, probably. Always finds a fun twist on a line of dialogue. Dramatically, he's not asked to do that much. But I'll be damned if it didn't make perfect sense for him to be the lone remaining hero from Team Orphnoch. His path to being a hero is long and tentative. He never seems to feel like a purposeful hero, the kind who makes a bold speech about their beliefs. His heroic journey was like erosion, slowly worn down by people like Yuuji, Takumi, Keitaro, and Teruo. It's like he turned around in episode 48 and went Holy Shit I Actually Care About These People. His heroism wasn't planned, or fought for. It sneaks up on him, like it sneaks up on the audience.

Yuka really won me over. It's a purely reactive performance, always giving back whatever emotion she's given by another character. It's hard to see the real Yuka, and that's a great type of character to spend time with in a series like this. Yuka takes so much abuse, values herself so little, that it's beautiful and excruciating to see her slowly figure that out. To see her push at the boundaries she's created for herself, to see her long for the freedom to ask for happiness. It's always a sad story with Yuka. It's hard to watch, tough to process. But it always felt like a story worth paying attention to, a perspective worth experiencing.

Yuuji... I mean, Yuuji. At one point, my favorite character on the show. (This is before Houjou showed up, and before I fully understood the glory of Kageyama.) Watching him navigate a world he never felt comfortable in, building a morality for others to follow that he eventually lost faith in, it's a tough arc. The last four episodes, the choices the show makes with him in 47-49, it... I mean, it nearly ruined the character for me. For where he was at in 45-46, the Murakami Junior stuff didn't feel like a reaction to that, it felt like a shock-for-shock's-sake substitution, an idea that maybe worked in pitch form (what if Yuuji took over Smart Brain) but fumbled on the page and died on the screen. But, goddamn, give Old Yuuji a few seconds of space to sell his despair and it all just locks into place, feeling like the natural extension of a man who won't allow himself to be betrayed any further, who'd rather be a villain than a victim. While the specifics of it all never lined up for me, the broad strokes of Yuuji's story came through by the end.

--3--

It's the themes that really sold me on this series. Seeing some of the character choices and metaphors establish themselves got me really excited to see where this story went.

I liked that it was a story about survival, but this time about emotional survival. It's about how different groups find ways to first tolerate, then interrogate, then embrace each other. The Team Faiz side of the story is how an in-group processes a world with an out-group, how it looks at its own behavior, how it overcomes prejudice and resentment; and the Team Orphnoch side is about how the out-group vocalizes its objections, agitates for its rights, finds a way to live in harmony with an in-group.

It's, as stated, a hell of a series to watch during Pride Month. There's so much in this series that speaks to LGBTQ issues. Yuka's (to my mind) closeting, her inability to be honest with her desires and identity. Kaido's freedom of his new identity, that's tempered with the ways it doesn't really change who he is inside. Yuuji's activism, and the ways he becomes militarized after feeling the weight of a culture that he fears will never accept him. Mari trying to find a way to accept a friend and failing, badly. Takumi's... just everything with Takumi hiding his Orphnoch identity. His self-loathing, his fears of being shunned, the way he doesn't get to control coming out to his friends. All of Takumi's story. Even the end of Takumi and Yuuji's story, it can be read as Takumi valuing acceptance versus Yuuji raging against oppression.

It just felt way smarter to me than it needed to be. Nothing against some incredibly smart Kamen Rider series, but the stuff that Faiz was trying to get at, themes of acceptance and coexistence and identity and communication, it just felt so much more mature than I'd've ever expected. It's doing so much, right under the surface, and it made this show a joy to watch and think about.

--4--

And then there's the plot, which... didn't.

I get it, how that maybe is a dealbreaker for some fans. It's not a great plot. The Orphnoch King gets brought up all season, and he's lame. There's way too much time digging into the Ryusei School and its alumni ("Go Meteors!"), and it rarely feels worth the effort. A lot of plot stuff just drops out of the sky in the final four episodes. A few characters that feel like they should be a big deal (Minami, Orphan Daddy) end up not really mattering. Beyond Takumi being an Orphnoch, it's hard to think of a really cool twist that improved the plot.

I can't blame anyone who wants a Kamen Rider show that's both thematically rich and expertly plotted. (To which I'd say, Build.) For me, what this show managed through its emphasis on character-driven decision-making and thematic heft more than made up for the missteps that occurred when you could feel the push of plot-driven developments.

Like, the Murakami Junior stuff. It's just not a good idea. It loses Yuuji, and only serves to replace Murakami. There's no storytelling gain there, you just lost the most compelling character on the show. It makes three-quarters of the final story a slog to get through. It doesn't feel like something Yuuji would do, which was a mistake Faiz spent 90% of its run not making.

When the characters lead the story, this show was powerful and smart. When it let the plot lead the story, it was poorly-justified and insincere. I guess for me, the character-driven parts outweighed the plot-driven parts. I get that not everyone will make the same allowance.

--5--

Folks always seemed pretty skeptical about Faiz, before I started. Its reputation definitely preceded it. And it's not without cause! It's unusual in ways that can frustrate, and bold in ways that might be ill-considered. But, man, I really appreciated what it said over the course of the show, and forgive it its (relatively) minor missteps. It's not for everyone, but it was definitely for me.

Real talk for a second though, since I don't remember anyone bringing it up and it is a plothole that has been driving me crazy. Did Kusaka just quit college to hang out at the dry cleaners and wash his bike? That dude was in a million clubs and then we never ever see him go back there once. I know he wants to protect Mari, but he can probably do that and take some classes, right?

So weird that that never came up on the show or (if memory serves) in this thread. I'm changing my appraisal! Faiz bad! FAIZ BAD!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/faizextrab.png

As someone who massively disliked Faiz when I watched it, this thread has definitely made me want to give it a rewatch to see if I can appreciate it more after seeing how many great points you've made about its themes and characters. It's been a while now since I watched it, but I remember finding the characters absolutely insufferable and the plot a disastrous mess. In retrospect, I'm wondering if I was too hard on it or just missed a lot. Faiz is a show I really wanted to like, so maybe if I check it out again through the lens of your positive commentary I can appreciate it more!

I mean, holy shit, I'd be thrilled? That is a super flattering thing to hear! Thank you!

Faiz is... I think it's very easy to dismiss. It does some stuff and makes some choices that, depending on your expectations of the franchise and your own preferences for superhero stories, can be dealbreakers.

But I really feel like if you treat as a conversation you're having with Inoue rather than a window into a world, it's very easy to feel his enthusiasm for these weirdos, and to understand their motivations in a world that feels both microscopic (there might as well only be 10 people on Earth) and expansive (it is about entire cultures).

I don't know, I hope I'm not overselling it! I think it's a lot better than its reputation!

This is exactly the kind of perspective that makes me want to try it again. I think if I view it from this angle, I can enjoy it more. When I first watched it I was definitely focusing less on that and more on general plot, which is a type of viewing I've moved beyond just in general since then. So I think I might be able to get a lot more out of it on a second viewing considering both the changes in my own viewing style and your insights.

Isn't it generally easier to invest on flawed characters? Because they're more relatable. Though what infuriates me in fandom is that this (harsh) double standard, toxic flaws (ex: rude, greed) are glorified, but ordinary flaws (ex: clumsy, timid) aren't. With an IMO hypocritical reasons (for toxic flaws - I relate to him better because us humans aren't perfect!, for ordinary flaws - get this loser outta here I don't want to be reminded of my own weaknesses!), and it makes me actually wary of those kind of people (which to my experience, aren't a few) tbh. Want to do a joke here; Kaido becomes a "hero" that he's hailed as such by public, but so does characters like Mysterio in MCU! Otherwise, didn't you say that you don't want for a prick to change for the better at the end? That it's a smart choice of a show to keep characters still being an asshole?

Something I heard from other, but not the usual complain like "miscommunitcations" is like this: The problem is the difference between standard KR shows and the way characters are in Faiz; From the start you have the MC helping people and the story is usually about hope or optimism, where you said there, Takumi is the exact opposite of that; the only character who embodies those standard traits is Keitaro (well, it's something you like earlier so yeah...), a side character. That means Inoue was on the right track for Faiz as a concept, but sorta forgot what KR meant for kids, that Faiz probably would work much better as anything else except as a Rider season, for those that watches KR for the hope and optimism in humanity; while Faiz is much more realistic approach as a hero genre (not everyone wants to do things) it leave a bad taste for those.

"Highly Charismatic Yet Insufferable Assholes"? But ironically your favorite is Yuji (the old one).... But for that, coupled with the decision of turning Yuji the same like them being bad, I will say this; While for above you said, keeping characters being assholes is a smart choice that I can agree too, and is a preferable/better choice, I also don't want for the existing non-asshole characters to be turned into assholes as well (for example: if their stance doesn't work like above Keitaro was a joke at first, where they would want for those type to realize their ideals don't work, and actually "mature up"; read: becoming angry over the world and lash out), or just simply because people don't like that they aren't assholes, or even "not villainous". I'm probably judgmental on this one, but I'd be wary of people like this (not those that can like/dislike any type of characters, but those who only like assholes/villains and also shit on anyone not like them, even giving the asshole/villains double standards over a trait shared by non-asshole ones), I'd say the more asshole thing you did instead of not liking episode 47-49 is your comments on characters like Saya, which to me, gives the quiet-shaming vibe, or above, "only tolerating toxic flaws but shit on ordinary flaws". But this is what'd be fair to the characters.

For Faiz' reputation, it's not all about Kusaka, but for Takumi and Yuji too, for the miscommunications like Takumi just acting without explaining the reasons why (ex: forcing Mari to give up on Yuji), piling up the problems. Yuji isn't impulsive like Takumi, but him not talking things through probably also considered by them. Kusaka was a big part of their (and others to a lesser extent) animosity yeah, but for the non-Kusaka characters not actually improving things up when they can are probably what also contributes to the reputation. But finally... you consider him a villain, like I hoped you will (and what I told you to with his early bullying ways), and not like, treating him as good because he accomplishes things that can be benefical to others like killing Orphnochs, or like you said, several times being on the right. He's part of protagonist, but villain protagonists exist. Mari's plot with Kusaka is meant to provoke hatred reactions to him, so the problems are probably intentional? Can you explain about Keitaro ("the show is too cruel or too bleak or too nihilistic or too morally bankrupt") to Kurona, or just recently, those who comments that they think all characters are assholes?

For Orphnoch King, I would like to know, what's your thoughts on those like Sigma in Drive or Gamedeus in Ex-Aid, because Orphnoch King is Faiz' answer to them. For Hanagata, he's more like instigator type for the series (found Smart Brain, wants to evolve the humans, creates the Belts, but realizes the error of his ways with Orphnoch's biology and tries to save humanity by kickstarting the whole plot by giving the belts to stand up against Orphnochs - you know the reason why all the Riders/Orphnoch stuff happen, this is a Kamen Rider show after all!), but at current time he's more of a social father figure to the cast. Though for you, I guess he'd matter more if he interacts with more than just Ryusei School alumnus like Team Faiz or Orphnoch (except Yuji at the end)? Also if you think there's too much time digging into Ryusei School, would that contradicts with Hanagata not mattering much? For Minami he matters though not in the way we like - his cruelty indirectly turned Yuji evil. But Minami isn't meant to be major, he exists solely to show that Humans Are the Real Monsters.

For Faiz being a show for you, you can join forces with Fish Sandwich to stick up for it. Bruh did you forget? Kusaka was a Delta too! Obviously he's going to be too awesome for colleges and he can do whatever he wants without a fear of becoming a washout! Even if dropping out he's still highly successful unlike even those graduating!

So I first watched Faiz back in 2009, during my own binge-watch of the Heisei era (minus Kuuga, which hadn't been subbed yet). I was really into it at first, but about two-thirds in I started seeing some of its recurring tropes become more apparent. In the years since then, I've largely let some of its more infamous elements grow larger and more egregious in my memories, helped along by a lot of the general consensus that most people have for the show. For a long time I felt I would never go back and watch it again, and the one attempt I made ended after two episodes.

I'm really glad that I joined you on this ride (pun intended) because it's given me a chance to really re-evaluate the series. There are still some elements that didn't work for me (Mihara) or made my eyes roll (some obvious cop-out fight endings), but a lot more of it worked. I'll definitely say that your own interpretations helped me view some of these areas in a new light, but I also just remembered how good this show's characters could be. I'll stand by my own comments early on in the thread that this is the soap opera Kamen Rider, but I'll be damned if that didn't turn out to be one of its redeeming qualities.

Excellent, excellent thread. While I don't agree with everything 100%, I have to tip my hat off to Kamen Rider Die for his steadfast dedication and pinpoint analysis of the entire season. Bravo!

So, on to the movie? That's one I'm really looking forward to! Also, just had my 30th Birthday Party and had a custom cake made based on the Faiz Gear Box! (^o^)

There's a prequel to Paradise Lost called Lost World, which might be worth reading the plot summary to understand some of the weirder parts of the movie.

Faiz Briefcake? I would eat that!

That Smart Brain Cake is awesome

Haha, thanks! The details, including the Smart Brain nameplate, handle, locks and hinges were lovingly and accurately recreated in fondant. The cake itself, was a mix of white and dark chocolate flavor, selected to represent the moral conflict of the Orphnochs in Faiz.

I really hope it works for you!

I might've said that? I honestly don't remember. (Everyone on this thread is way better at recalling my comments and takes than I am.)

For this one, I think the whole point of Takumi's story is to, not redeem him, but evolve him? He's an asshole when it starts, but the show adds so much context and specificity to it that he can only get better as a person.

On the other hand, there's Kusaka. He starts as a tortured anti-hero and ends as a villain. He never gets better, and he actually gets worse as you learn more about him?

So, I don't know. I think there's a benefit to not trying to turn everyone into a nice guy, but there's also times where you need to give a character an arc. Does that make sense?

Yeah, I wonder how kids took this series. It's definitely coming at its heroism from a weirder angle.

Oh, I mean, I have been? For two months? But they just feel differently, and that's cool. I appreciate them sharing their takes on these characters!

The Orphnoch King is definitely in the same category as Gamedeus and Sigma, yeah. They're metaphors, forces of nature, obstacles. They aren't villains that you can argue with, bargain with.

The Ryusei School bugged me because it was basically all flashbacks, all backwards-looking. It excluded the entirety of Team Orphnoch from its storytelling, and largely left Keitaro and Takumi on the outside. It was almost entirely a Kusaka story, by the end. That's too much time to explain Kusaka!

Adding more Orphan Daddy to the present-day storytelling probably wouldn't fix that, so for me it's a Damned If You Do, Damned If You Don't situation. As is, it's an Orphan Daddy who feels inconsequential and a Ryusei School story that feels poorly portioned. Adding more Orphan Daddy makes the Ryusei School story way way more of the series plot, and that feels like a huge mistake. I don't really have a way in mind for them to have fixed it!

Aw, thanks! I'm glad you were able to have a better time with the show!

I think maybe bingeing this one does it a disservice? Being able to spend a day between episodes, spending some time really thinking about, it helped focus on the themes and characters rather than just letting the plot wash over me for hours at a time. I'm glad that it was helpful for other fans!

Thanks so much! And happy birthday! That cake is amazing. I hope you said Standing By before you blew out the candles, Henshin as the cake was cut, and Complete after you ate your first piece.

Oh, also, yes, tonight is movie night! It's probably going to be a very late post, but I'm aiming to have it up tonight.

This is yet another one of the many joys this thread has given me. I've seen Switchblade say stuff along the lines of "Faiz's biggest problem is that it'd rather be a soap opera than a Rider show" for ages, and could never think anything in response except "biggest problem?"

It's nice to see that stance reevaluated in a way no amount of me saying "well, actually" could have accomplished, but beyond that, it's just always nice to see people... patching things up, I guess? I mean, it's just a TV show, obviously, but me going through the same process with Gaim resulted in my very first epic novel thread on this forum years back, so, speaking from experience, being able to find again those things you liked about something you've grown cold towards is a wonderful feeling.

Die, I'd love to believe you're saying this out of the goodness of your heart, but, as you just pointed out, we remember the comments you've made. This kinda sounds like an excuse to weasel your way out of that fight with Kurona over all your objectively awful opinions on suit designs. Cosmic States deserves an apology! :p

Although I'm still happy to see your character arc continuing to play out. Maybe by the time you catch up to currently-airing Rider, one episode a week will somehow sound perfect to you. That kind of development would put even Takkun to shame!

What's more amazing is that this thread has gotten everyone so jazzed about Faiz, nobody has even thought to make a Kougami joke yet.

...

Okay, actually, I lied. That cake is immaculate. Nothing can top that.

Haha! I did something better! I wore my CSM Faiz Belt to the party and did a henshin in front of my all my guests. (^.^')


Thanks... and HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! (to me.)

I can admit when I'm wrong. Just don't hold your breath for me to revise my feelings on Ghost.

I'm totally gonna have to do a Kurona Rewatches Ghost thread at some point, huh?

I'm sorry... Cosmic States has to look like that? I'm sorry some designer submitted two options, one beautiful and one purposefully terrible, to get the producers to pick the beautiful one the designer liked, and the producers picked the purposefully-terrible one?

They--

Wait, do they come out only once a week?! That cannot be right.

I almost dipped into my HAPPY BIRTHDAY, NOBUNAGA screencap. So close!

That's awesome. If it didn't Error so hard that you got knocked into a wall, congratulations, you're an Orphnoch! Enjoy your birthday and please don't kill (too many) humans.

Seems like an inevitability. Sorry, and I can't wait to see it!

I'm only at this point in the movie, but:

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/gif/hug.gif

Literally anyone who ever posts at me that Faiz is a series that's too dark or too serious is going to get that gif as a response.

KAMEN RIDER 555 MOVIE: PARADISE LOST

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/faizmoviea.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/faizmovieb.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/faizmoviec.png

--1--

I was wondering if the movie, with its shorter running time, would try and touch on any of the show's themes. And, it does, for sure. The idea of humans and Orphnochs coexisting is the stated premise of the film, the goal of the heroes.

The thing I found interesting, though, is that the movie ended up bringing up other ideas that tie into that theme that the show never really explored. It made for a fun experience, a sort-of supplement to the main narrative rather than a condensed version of it.

There's a smaller runner about the ways corporations and the media help shape attitudes about various groups, either endorsing coexistence or denouncing it. Smart Brain's power in the story isn't Riotroopers or Emperor Belts, it's the way they reframe the human insurgency as bloodthirsty terrorists, or how they're able to normalize Orphnoch existence. It's something I'd hoped the show would explore, but they never really did. Smart Brain being run by and for Orphnochs became just a trivial detail. We spent more time with Murakami and his crew at Lucky Clover than we saw the scientists at Smart Brain doing much to further their cause. It felt like a missed opportunity in the show, so I'm glad it got some use in the movie.

--2--

The bigger thing the film deals with, thematically, is the fears of an in-group. An in-group's irrational fear of accepting an out-group is that the out-group's culture and morality will supplant their own, so the in-group is justified in never giving an inch to the out-group. This film is like a human supremacist's fever dream, with humans left to eke out a subsistence on the edges, while Orphnochs live openly. (Like, if you wanted to tell me that canonically this is all a nightmare Kusaka's having, I'd be into that theory.)

It's a concept that... I mean, I guess you need to address it? There's an absurdity to it that keeps it from feeling like an Unless We're Vigilant warning. I kind-of love how the nightmare scenario for humans here is They'll Take Our Jobs. It's... man, they are not subtle with the concept they are satirizing!

There's a darkness to it, as an idea. It's maybe not something you want to be seen as tacitly endorsing through metaphor? But it's done so ridiculously that I appreciate them trying it on as a gag. This is a real fear that people have, that outsiders, people different from them, will take their culture from them and leave them as the outsiders. It's a fear that convinces people to demonize outsiders as a form of self-preservation, and it needed to be addressed somewhere in the Faiz narrative. I guess a non-canonical movie was as good a place as any?

--3--

So, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but I don't think I'd've assumed that Takumi's reveal as an Orphnoch in the movie was something that'd happen in the show. The whole movie is so bonkers and separate from the show that I'd probably think the Takumi thing was another weird choice in a weird movie. (Murakami is just a head in a jar and no one ever comments on it! Inoue was just like Takumi Has A Ponytail And Murakami Is A Head In A Jar. That was how he wanted to tell this story! It's so weird!) It's important to the climax of the film, and it ties together the main theme of humans and Orphnochs being similarly capable of either heroism or villainy, but it's not something the film spends a ton of time on. I would probably have written it off as some weird-ass 11th-hour Inoue choice.

(I mean, that's maybe too dismissive of it. It's integral to Yuuji's story in this that Faiz not just be a human he's friends with, but a fellow Orphnoch who choose to fight for humans. It's not just a random choice. But it's also so close to the end of the film that I don't know if the film needed it as a plot point.)

The Yuuji turn here, it avoids the Murakami Junior stuff that bugged me in the series, but... I sort-of hate it?

The Oga costume is awesome, and the rage that consumes Yuuji feels a lot more visceral and substantial than what we got in the series. I'll give it that. But, man, having it be because Smart Brain tricks him into thinking Mari betrayed him and got his friends killed? Lame! Lame choice! It moves Yuuji's turn from a moral collapse into an unfortunate misunderstanding, and I hate that so much. In the show, it's Yuuji's decision to do every horrible thing he does. He falls on his own, which makes him picking himself back up feel earned. Here, he's been lied to by the bad guys, and then changes his mind at the last second because he feels bad about it. Like, I can't stress this enough, Yuuji's turn has to be a fully-informed decision or it fundamentally doesn't matter. I get that there's less time in the movie to make that turn work, but, maybe don't do it then? There's a great fight in there with Oga and Faiz (in a Falls Count Anywhere match, which is how you know it's final), but this is all a misunderstanding and it bugged the shit out of me.

I get the Misunderstanding tag against Faiz now! It's not great!

--4--

Good film, though, besides that.

The story's smartly centered on Mari and Takumi's bond. They become friends super fast in the show, so the movie gets a lot of juice from how long it keeps Mari and Takumi apart. Having the story be about how much these two need each other in their lives, I loved that. The series kind-of spent more time with Mari in Kusaka's plots as time went on, so I really liked how integral their early-series bond was to this story. Takumi needs the motivation and encouragement that Mari provides, and Mari needs someone in her life worth rooting for. (That is to say, Kusaka is very very Kusaka in this movie, to hilarious effect. He's cinematically full of himself in this!)

Plus, shit, the whole movie is pretty much about Mari. She's a bad-ass revolutionary, she's a party organizer, she's the reason Yuuji falls and the reason he sacrifices himself... she's the star of this one, and she does an amazing job.

The new Riders have some awesome suits, too! (Figured I should finally talk about them.) Kamen Rider Oga was a design that took me a minute to get into, but I ended up really liking it. I like the skirt on it. I like the way the horizontal lines on the Omega symbol form the lower part of the face.

I liked Kamen Rider Buzz Lightyear's suit better, though. That white and purple! So good! Wasn't crazy about the very rubbery jetpack, but the suit itself was stunning. And that first fight he had, against the mutinous Smart Brain salarymen, very cool! He has a fluidity to his combat that felt unique among the Riders. My favorite of the two new Riders.

--5--

Yeah, fun movie. Great to see some old friends again. (My heart, when it was Team Orphnoch teasing Kaido for always saying he's going to break bad when he never ever will!) The post-apocalyptic nature of the movie was probably the best way to tell a story that hit on the themes of the show, leveraged some of the character relationships, but didn't try to rush anything so it lost impact. (Well, the Yuuji stuff, maybe.) I don't know that I cared so much about the Mina/amnesia stuff, but it was relatively brief and I will let Inoue have his melodrama.

I don't know if it feels like I've said a lot about this movie? I liked the themes, I love these characters, it was a fun diversion. Seems like it would've been fun to see in a theater?

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/faiz/faizmovied.png

(Tomorrow's going to be some Faiz miscellany I've got in a folder, and we'll see what in there is worth talking about. Thursday is a final wrapup post for this thread. So don't forget to come back!)

I had a 'Delta is too cool too show up in this movie' ready but if there's a rider worth of memes, it's Psyga. Everything about that guy is absurd. I really liked his last fight with Faiz though, the bit of super-speed vs jetpack and then Takumi cutting through him. Having a giant crowd surrounding the fight definitely adds to the hype. My only complaint is that he needed one more jarring exit line in english...

I do think it probably might have been fine had you watched it earlier, though at the same time, I don't think people in this thread would have been able to keep from spelling out that the 'Takumi is a werewolf' thing happens in the show anyway... Anyhow, glad you liked it for the most part. I think this film more than most Rider movies, feels like a big, special cinematic experience, as opposed to just a longer, higher-budget episode. Episode Final is still more nostalgic to me, but I consider Paradise Lost to be the 'definitive' Rider summer movie, if that makes sense.

Is it weird for me to say that it's too bad you still have a little more to look over for Faiz? Because otherwise this thread would be wrapping up with the nice page count of one hundred! I mean, the absolute ideal would be for 555, but can't have everything...

Psyga? Psyga. Got it.

Anyway, yeah, he was a pretty fun adversary for the Riders. I thought him speaking English was super weird (just looked him up on the wiki; dude was born in Los Angeles!) because it sounds natural, fluent, but also like no one gave him a line reading? He just, like, says words. I hope he had fun?

I think "liked it for the most part" is a succinct way of describing the experience. It felt like a long movie, which usually isn't a great sign. It tries to do a lot, in a way that makes some elements (Mina, for sure) feel like they happened in the movie before this one, or something.

The action was pretty great in this one, though. The fights, across the board, were gigantic and impactful. (Not crazy about the big CG monster at the end, but it wasn't the end of the world.)

Kind-of bummed that, after the Ryuki movie crammed in all of Agito in the background, the Faiz movie only has Auntie from Ryuki and a cop from Agito. Boo! Booooo!

100 pages is still... you guys! You had so much to say about Faiz! I'm incredibly grateful for that. I would've never thought there'd be that much interest in discussing a show that had a not-universally-beloved reputation.

That said, oh dear god I don't think I could talk about Faiz for another 400+ pages. My brain is nearly wrung out of things to say about Faiz. *gestures at Paradise Lost post*

The explanation I always heard was that Psyga's actor couldn't speak Japanese effectively enough to be believable. I've also heard that's just an urban legend.

I really like this film. It's one of my favorites from this era of Rider. My favorite part is definitely the Takumi/Mari dynamic, which skews a lot more romantic here than it did on the show. My favorite part is always how Mari spends the first half hour of the film praising Takumi and wishing he'd come back, then within five minutes of his actual return they're back to the classic sniping at each other that we're so used to from the show. Never change, you two.

I also love how Mari decides to hold a masquerade ball right after the shanty town was trashed by Riotroopers and Kusaka got murdered. That is some Mai from Gaim-level lack of situational awareness.

This version of Kaido? This is probably my favorite. If you disagree with me then I'm leaving to join Smart Brain. You know, eventually. Just you watch.

Any minute now.

I love that when Takumi's amnesia went away, so did his ability to prioritize someone else's comfort. It's like he's got months and months of loudly complaining about people's expectations to get out of his system all at once!

Not to defend Mari, but I'm going to defend Mari.

1) People definitely needed a party after getting mostly slaughtered by Riotroopers and Psyga.
2) The unsmothered flames lent a romantic air to the party.
3) It was only Kusaka who got murdered, not anyone people cared about. Why should that put a damper on things?
4) She spent so much money on flyers, and it's not like she can just change that date on Facebook. It'd be rude to just let all of those theoretical guests down!

The Team Orphnoch stuff was so so so great in this. I know it's Mari's movie, and the Mari/Takumi bond is the heart of the film, but MAN did I miss these three hanging out. Terrific chemistry.

I think my favorite thing in this series, full-stop, is the way Yuuji says Kaido's name when Kaido is being irrepressible/obnoxious. It's like, "KAIDO". It's like a little hill he climbs, and chases Kaido down. Getting to hear that again, man, made my night.

I'm holding you to this promise.

But yeah, Paradise Lost is... I mean, personally, the word "good" doesn't cut it for me? I absolutely adore it. It's always been my favorite Rider movie, and even though there's some stiff competition nowadays, it probably always will be. I actually said a whole lot of words about it already! With bonus Double movie review!


Which reminds me that I definitely need to do one more of these for the road.

The line immediately following this that TV-N has as the fairly nonsensical "It's probably just that they think neither humans nor Orphenoch have anything to do with them" is also more like "I think it probably doesn't matter whether someone is human or Orphenoch." There are other little errors peppered throughout the movie, but these ones harm the themes the most.

Something to look forward to with Blade is that Excite! Subs did a completely from-scratch translation of it after they did Ex-Aid, making it one of two whole early Heisei shows to my knowledge (the other being Kuuga, thanks to Shout) that aren't currently stuck with variations on choppy TV-N translations. Excite's version is what I rewatched Blade with, and it comes highly recommended by this translation cop, if you weren't planning to use it already. Natural sounding dialogue in your Rider shows is just one more thing you've earned the right to after all this work!

I look forward to your deep thematic analysis of the Faiz Sausage commercial.

I personally loved this film! I can get that Kiba's turn felt a little forced and contrived, but I think that they had to make some concessions in order to fit the series' plot in a single movie format.

One of the reasons I loved the film so much is that it really is a microcosm of all the good parts of the series. The rather thin plot is trimmed of all the fat, and the new scenario allows the characters to focus on the important stuff, interaction, introspection and the exploration of morality. And of course action. We seriously have everything. Aside from the sad lack of Delta, I do believe we get almost all of their various abilities featured.

Some of my favorite standout moments:

- The Faiz Gear and Auto Vajin being hidden in junk.
- Faiz Axel taking out a crap ton of Riotroopers with the Axel Crimson Smash.
- Kamen Rider Psyga being the first(?) English-speaking Rider.
- Faiz smoothly tossing aside the Edge, only for Mari to pick it up later.
- The fact that this movie held the record for the largest number of extras in a film for quite a long period of time - all of their names appearing in the credits.
- The gorgeous aerial shot of the stadium with Faiz Blaster's energy erupting from the sides.

You seem to have missed the editor as the girl’s dad and the voice of the Visors as the Lio Orphnoch.

And speaking of what you may have missed, the heads of Smart Brain are all voiced by classic villain actors from all of Toei’s big 3; Goro Naya (Kamen Rider), Seizo Kato (Super Sentai) and Shozo Iizuka (Metal Heroes).

And so we avoid this “where to watch the movie” business for future threads, I’ll just tell you here.

Blade: Episodes 28-31 were followed by (on the first broadcast) four shorts films leading up to the main feature.

Hibiki: The episodes functions best as a replacement for episode 33.

Kabuto: Now this is a weird one. While it is an AU, it takes place prior to the first episode. I’d recommend around episodes 23-27, since everything in the movie is established by then and they’re advertising the movie in post credits scenes.

Den-O: The movie takes place between episodes 27 and 28.

Kiva: The movie doesn’t really fit into canon, but it works best between episodes 24 and 27.

Decade: Another weird one. While the movie is canon, like Den-O’s, there’s no point where the plot stops long enough to fit it in. TVTropes suggests it takes place after episode 27 (which does include a few Easter eggs foreshadowing the movie) while the KR Wiki says after episode 29 (which is the last episode prior to the finale).

Zi-O: The movie is an alternate ending, branching off after episode 43.