Seeing all this Kuroto discussion really does reinforce for me that 90% of post-show content for any Kamen Rider show is just not good.

Unfortunately true.

Probably not. It can be hard to get back an actor that was on Kamen Rider four years ago, much less forty.

In Geats, the main current DGP roster here seems to be able to be compared with one another (other than Ginpen), both their similarities and contrasts at once.

Ace Ukiyo/Geats:

• To Keiwa: Both are the leads of the shows, but Ace's the kitsune, mysterious, hypercompetent experienced player, confident, deceitful, and famous celebrity to Keiwa's tanuki, ordinary man, weaker inexperienced player, self-doubts, straightforward, and unemployed.
• To Neon: Both are celebrities who longs for familial love, but Ace's knowledgeable about the world to huge degree (considering his age) and wants to find his mom who's missing, while Neon can be naive and out of touch and wants to run from her mom who she lives with.
• To Michinaga: Both are DGP veterans, but Ace doesn't directly talk down to others despite his arrogance (though he can give condescending pity to Keiwa) and is tactical and levelheaded against problems, while Michinaga directly talks down to others (like dismissing Keiwa and Neon as extras) and brute forces his way to any problems with anger.
• To Kanato: Both are the Riders who are the most concerned about the world's state, but while Ace keeps moving forward and opts for others to do the same, Kanato's stuck in the past that he's constantly miserable regarding his accident.
• To Morio: Both can pass off as helpful ally to others and can use dirty methods, but Ace can put a self-serving, profit-oriented facade that covers his compassion and tricks players equal/ahead of him, while Morio puts a friendly and easygoing facade that covers his opportunistic actions and can sabotage helpless players.

Keiwa Sakurai/Tycoon:

• To Neon: Both are DGP newcomers, naive and has been tricked, also grows more backbone later, but Keiwa's an everyman who is orphaned but has good relationship with remaining family, while Neon's a celebrity who has complete family and poor relationship with them. Their Boost debuts respectively are Neon dominating against mobs, and Keiwa failing against the final boss.
• To Michinaga: Both are Ace's primary rivals (as for ep. 7 for Keiwa), but Keiwa is team oriented who insists others working together to fight Jamatos, while Michinaga is a lone wolf who views every players as enemies.
• To Kanato: Both seem to be DGP players who care the least about winning the game, but Keiwa focuses on helping other players, while Kanato focuses on bringing other players down.
• To Morio: Both are 2 of the most outwardly cordial Riders, but Keiwa genuinely cares about others whenever they're up or down, while Morio only cares about those who can benefit him (including the way they utilize rescue points) and can turn on those useless to him.

Neon Kurama/Na-Go:

• To Michinaga: Both are the players Keiwa helped by giving Boost Buckle away, but Neon is team oriented in playing the game by trying to team up with players, while Michinaga is lone wolf who rebuffs other's helping hand towards him.
• To Kanato: Both are infected in Zombie Survival and has bleak past, but Neon tries to prevent her infection from spreading to others and she passes the round by being hopeful and not giving up, while Kanato wants to spread his infection out of spite and he got eliminated by succumbing to despair.
• To Morio: Both are 2 of the Riders most associated with wealth, but Neon had herself being victimized with Kurama's wealth being used as her ransom, while Morio's the offender with him embezzling money at the illegal casino.

Michinaga Azuma/Buffa:

• To Kanato: Both are 2 of the outwardly rudest DGP players and has a wish of crushing a group, but Michinaga fights exclusively close-ranged and his wish is limited (only to Riders), while Kanato fights exclusively long-ranged and his wish is all-encompassing (entire humanity).
• To Morio: Both are Special Ticket users in Concentration and proclaim they'd do anything to win, but Michinaga's typically honest and plays fairly, while Morio frequently lies to cover himself up and can cheat.

Kanato Sumida/Da-Paan:

• To Morio: Both are the villainous Riders among the current DGP roster, but Kanato is rude and hostile to others and is more over the top to exterminate entire humanity, while Morio puts a friendly facade and is more grounded to 'only' try running away from his crime responsibilities.

As a matter of fact, we have an example of Hiroshi Fujioka who came back repeatedly. And in general, just the same Zi-O was able to return quite a lot of actors, including those from the series 20 years ago (and even Norider from the 88th)

By the way, I think that Geats is a good confirmation that the concept of the secondary rider is better left in Heisei. In the show, the title equally suits Keiwa (essentially the protagonist of the story, who is mostly watched by the viewer, favored by fate and the first of the newcomers to get his strong form), Michinaga (literally the second rider to appear on the screen and the second most powerful after Geats) and Neon (the second in the show used by Boost and was the first to team up with the main character).

it's Kamen Rider Blade time baby

Maybe something’s changed since I stopped watching, but isn’t Tycoon essentially a POV character like Gatack? That seems to easily pin him as the secondary.

Pretty much.

But also, there's a real simple answer as to who's secondary and who's tertiary that I will always point to.

Oronamin C Commercials

Those usually show us who the main trio of Riders are.

Mostly cause last year was crazy with people being like "Demons is the Secondary" then Evil/Live happened, and they're like "Okay Demons is the tertiary" and because Jeanne was pretty much P Bandai, everyone was arguing over who got precedence over the other so I just decided to wait for Oronamin C to decide (even though it as obvious) and we got Revi, Vice, Live and Jeanne as the main Riders in that commercial.

Well yeah, but there’s also Toru Okazaki, who hasn’t appeared as Amazon since the last episode of Stronger and doesn&t act at all anymore.

I’m not saying we couldn’t see Sougo come back in 37 years, I just wouldn’t bank on it being anything more than possible.

So far, he is such in 3 episodes out of 7. In the 3rd and 4th iNagon the center of the plot, in the 5th and 6th of Buffa. So its secondary for me is very much in doubt.

That's... just focus episodes. You could use the same argument to say Jeanne or Lazer or Todoroki are the true secondaries of their shows.

It may matter to collectors, but I don't watch those videos, so for me a secondary rider is someone who is second only to the main character in terms of screen time. And after Zero-One, it became quite problematic to determine this.

Well, the Laser is clearly not suitable, and Todoroki and Ibuki are essentially equivalent, so here I just look at who appeared earlier. But I still think that unambiguously calling Tacoon secondary is too reckless. For some reason, it seems to me that he has as much chance of becoming a Christmas dead man as Buffa.

And for the third year in a row :)

Very much a focus episode since like, Tycoon still is the focus character. Like I haven't kept up recently but I'm pretty sure he's still doing the opening narration recordings and like... that sets him up as rather major and he's usually a major part of the focus episodes in some way.

Given Kamen Rider's determined by toy's, that's a flawed mindset tbh. Like I feel as though Sakura gets much more in depth stuff than Daiji but that doesn't make Jeanne the secondary Rider (as much as I joke that she is).

Like in terms of Retail releases, it does become clear when they advertise who is using what. Vulcan basically gets the most focus in toys next to Zero-One, same with Blades and same with Live.

The only one that has a wrench in it so far and does have me questioning their choices is Geats so far (granted I've been questioning their choices during Revice so that doesn't really change) in that despite clearly being for Tycoon, the Ninja related gear that released doesn't come with his ID Core and so far Buffa's is the only one we've gotten.

I suppose it depends on if Buffa gets more exclusive things than Tycoon but so far they're about to be even in regards to that.

I also find it hilarious that Takahashi has scarred and scared people into believing this is an actual tradition when it's only happened once.

Very tempted to bust this conversation wide open with end-of-year toy listing leaks :p

Oh see I know what leaks you're talking about, I was just trying to play coy for those not in the loop. :lol

And how then to determine the secondary in the case of the same Blade and Hibiki?


Yes, it seems to me that in all the last seasons, death, pseudo-death or something bad happened at about the same time. Hiromi, Kento, Jun... Sougo met Oma Zi-O and Build learned the identity of Bloud Stark. Whatever one may say, this is the end of the introductory stage of the show, after which the status quo should change and the stakes should rise.

Here's the important thing about Kamen Rider, whether people like it or not. It's all about toy sales, and as a result marketing. What's in the marketing will usually do it.

As much as Chalice is pivotal to Blade, it's clear the marketing in recent years has pushed to make it clear that Garren's the secondary Rider (Neo Diendriver/Geiz Majesty) of Blade.

Not to mention in some video games where a lot of times only the primary and secondary will be shown so Garren shows up in like stuff like Battride War over Chalice. The same can be said about Ibuki over Todoroki as Hibiki's secondary Rider rep in Battride Wra.

When it comes to the Secondary Rider, Toei/Bandai determines that via what they market to their audiences.

Yeah but I'm more taking apart the phrase Christmas Death since the only one we really had was Kiriya.

Jin was a villain who was axed but could very easily come back. Kento's was nowhere near Christmas and it was clear that it was something other than death, and Hiromi well... that was way past Christmas and was so unceremonious everyone did not see it as a death.

Kiriya's definitely held a more permanent mark for a long while and there wasn't much hinting at him coming back in a permanent fashion until Kuroto managed to come back as a Bugster which was way later on.

Technically, Tiger and Sasword bought the farm in Christmas episodes. And Another Agito and Zanki kicked the bucket in episodes airing around that time (the latter?s demise aired on the 25th, much like Kiriya?s). The main difference with them is that their deaths were foreshadowed to some degree (okay, Tiger?s wasn?t really, but he was in a show where ?anyone can die? was in full effect), whereas Kiriya?s wasn?t even hinted at until it happened, with even the episode basically being a totally different plot until then.

I love that kamen rider has two tones of violence:
1. I'll fade into sparkles cause we cant show a corpse
2. I'll punch a man and rip out his intestines.

The main thing is not to be mediocre.

I saw this bull and thought that he looked a little like Fangire.
https://i.ibb.co/54mSpdZ/IMG-0384-1.jpg

By the way, this is probably a projection, but I thought that the bear riders in the "Geats" basically correspond to their animals. Dapan is a weak rider, unable to survive on his own and too bad-tempered to make friends. Shiro, the "polar bear", is a strong player (after all, third place in the past DGP), but is doomed to die due to circumstances that he cannot influence. PunkJack, the "brown bear", is the most successful of the trio.

It'd probably happen as Win, but so far Punk Jack is also quite "weak" in DGP, at least in the stage he's assigned in Concentration, he's the worst Rider to be paired off with anyone there, giving them near auto-loss due to his single-minded track hampering the team. Before I already felt that the end of ep. 5 was a quite big cliffhanger for Keiwa (and it was confirmed by Neon and Ace in-universe).

Obviously, the role of a dumb bot was either a condition for his participation in the game; or bullying a partner on his own initiative. I think we'll find out the answer when Win shows himself as a character.

I think Keiwa is gonna be really popular even if he isnt gonna be as focused on as much after his first retirement. Thinking about that made me realize a lot of the secondary riders to Ace riders are popular. Kagami, Banjou, Diend (who's name I dont know, sorry)... It's weird we've only had like 4 ace riders.

Man, I hope not. I'm having a hard time connecting with most of the characters in Geats so far, but Keiwa is definitely the one that actively annoys me. I get that the show is going for a Tendou/Kagami vibe with him and Ace, but Ace lacks Tendou's charisma and Keiwa leans too far into the naive optimism. He was starting to get better near the end of round 1, but I absolutely did not miss him in the most recent episode.

You mean Geats, Build, Decade and Kabuto? I disagree. At a minimum, it seems to me that Wizard, Hibiki, Agito, Stronger and V3 can be added to this list.

I kind of disagree. I can't comment on Stronger or V3 since I haven't seen them. But Agito was only an ace in terms of his strength. He had little idea of what was going on around him for the majority of the series. Wizard, meanwhile, had the attitude, but he was being played the entire season.
Hibiki, though, yeah. But it makes a lot of sense with him, since he's training the next generation of Oni, not just Asumu and Kiriya, but also mentoring Todoroki from time to time, too. Would be kind of weird for Hibiki to be a blundering teacher :lol

Hibiki is really good at certain things, but has a very pronounced lack of real world skills.

And Tsukasa is a bad photographer :) Yes, and Sento is not that good in everyday things. It is difficult to say about Geats, because we almost never saw him in everyday life.

Well this is a whole new level of crackpot theorising.
(Not exactly sure if this guy's serious or not but I still found it hilarious)

https://i.imgur.com/jD6wG1X.png
https://i.imgur.com/ZIKSdAt.png

I like it, but when they get to "X" it will be difficult to justify the theory.

I fucking hate the world sometimes.

We will never be free.

Are there any Rider shows where Riders don't use bikes?

Yes, there have been quite a few:-

- Black RX uses multiple bikes, but he also has the car Rideron at his disposal
- Hibiki's riders are often transported via normal cars like Hondas
- Den-O's riders primarily use trains as per the premise of the show
- Aqua from Movie Wars MEGAMAX uses a Jetski
- Drive uses a car and has no bike
- Kamen Rider #3, similarly, uses a car and has no bike
- Kamen Rider #4 uses a plane
- Zi-O's riders primarily use time machines
- Revice uses a hoverbike

Aside from this, there are various auxiliary mechas Riders sometimes use like Kiva's Castle Doran; or other transport like G3's G-Trailer

Faiz rides a robot

:p