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-   -   Kamen Rider Gaim Episode 22: The Truth of One in Seven (https://www.tokunation.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66238)

SPLIT LIP 03-17-2014 07:23 PM
Kouta fights to not be a scumbag, like the people who apparently just want to kill most of the population.

Thing is, he knows he has ten years. Yggdrasil wants to kill everyone now. They're the bigger threat than helhiem.

I mean seriously, they were going to nuke the city if a SINGLE invess made it through this week. What kind of sense does that make? Invess have been leaking out for ages, and they want to panic and smash the kill-everything button over one little fly guy?

Super-smart Yggdrasil guys, protecting our future, everything planned out, unplugs the game at the first sign of an enemy grunt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHerofan (Post 325563)
Hey at the beginning we didn't even know about project ark, or Helhiem or all of that, now as for DJ Shagara's who will Helhiem choose, could be the next arc/movie. And Zawame might blow up, who knows? Nobody this show is unpredictable.
Exactly.

And yet everyone is like WHOO YEAH GO YGGDRASIL YOU GUYS ROCK!

Puh-lease.

algo448 03-17-2014 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325555)
You just want to pick the opposite side because it's not the "typical." Rather than do what's right, you want to just make a statement. I mean, if Takatora pushed that button this ep, even though we know one day Gaim will win, Yggdrasil would've seemed really fucking stupid, wouldn't they?
No I did not choose yggdrasil for such a petty reason, and it would be nice if you stopped making assumptions about what I think.

I know Yggdrasil isn't right, I openly said thir plan is inhuman, barbaric, all I am saying is that they came up with a logic plan that's the best bet humankind has, and that logically Kouta should be incapable of finding a better route.

We are not getting anywhere with this dicussion anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 325564)
And there is nothing wrong with this, but the Butcher seems to be trying (at least by toku standards) to make this feel like a real world, with fleshed living people in it. There is no clear good or bad, everyone has their own personal interests and everyone still has at least one more card on the table to play.
Exactly! It's not black and white for once, it's a great change of pace.

MrHerofan 03-17-2014 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 325564)
And there is nothing wrong with this, but the Butcher seems to be trying (at least by toku standards) to make this feel like a real world, with fleshed living people in it. There is no clear good or bad, everyone has their own personal interests and everyone still has at least one more card on the table to play.

That is why I refuse to write off Yggadrasill as purely evil, we know in this show it isn't that simple. And similarly Kouta is a man to rally behind, but the show itself points out the naivety of his character and also the pitfalls of such idealism.

Although we may personally decide who are heroes, and who aren't, I think the show has struck a surprisingly complex balance of only condemning one side as much as the other. That is what I love about this show.



And he always goes in half cocked, too, never forget that. His battle is entirely reactionary, and he's fighting against an organisation that has all the facts, even if the audience may not. Your breakdown of his characterisation has hit the nail on the head, and minus fighting with the Energy Riders, what else has he actually done to try and tackle them? It isn't like he's creating a revolution. Because he believes that people are better off not knowing? Then he's no different from his enemy...
Sounds pretty damn good, I've never been good at putting my thoughts into words and knowing there are people who can is phenomenal, now where can we um get our Sengoku Drivers before Helheim comes? :lol

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 07:27 PM
Indeed. It's quite the challenging and thought provoking show. And I absolutely love it for that.

Locke 03-17-2014 07:27 PM
Yeah I gotta admit, I didn't realise siding with the villains in a TV show would leave some people taking it so personally. I'm sorry mods if this got out of hand, I didn't think my post would spiral like it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHerofan (Post 325570)
Sounds pretty damn good, I've never been good at putting my thoughts into words and knowing there are people who can is phenomenal, now where can we um get our Sengoku Drivers before Helheim comes? :lol
To Mandrake!

I mean to Ryouma!

:lol

ComicGuy89 03-17-2014 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX (Post 325560)
Exactly. I mean let's think about it, Kouta got his Sengoku Driver by chance, and became a Rider to help fuel his and his friends' own gain. Now he fights for what exactly? Against Yggadrasill? Sort of. He just argues with them mostly. He isn't fighting to stop them, or even inform people about what's actually going on. He just stands there with a thumb up his ass going "Durrr Yggadrasill is bad cause they lied, gave us a game for research, and came up with a plan to stop our world be destroyed." Is genocide a good thing? No it isn't. But it's better then walking around acting all sour because adult businessmen are acting like adult businessmen who have though about every option possible, and while the end result isn't ideal, it's better then nothing.
Kouta cannot play an active role in stopping Helheim because the events are greater than him at this current point in time. Not being able to do something doesn't rule you out from protesting an evil plan. Besides, even now, Yggdrasil has other options, it's just these options might end up saving less people than their current plan.

Kouta also realizes that Yggdrasil is capable of saving humanity, but he can't trust them to do so. That's why he lets them do their work when it involves saving the city (like in the recent episode) but disrupts them when he sees the potential for evil (like trying to destroy the Scalar system).

I don't get why Kouta is being blamed when he's doing whatever he can given the circumstances. He fights off Invess, protects the city where he can. Being a 20 year old who is effectively alone on this crusade, that's pretty darn impressive..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 325564)
That is why I refuse to write off Yggadrasill as purely evil, we know in this show it isn't that simple.
Yeah, he shows this through Takatora's character, which I actually appreciate. Takatora represents the side of Yggdrasil that actually wants to protect humanity.

SPLIT LIP 03-17-2014 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algo448 (Post 325569)
and it would be nice if you stopped making assumptions about what I think.
Bet it would be, wouldn't it?

Quote:
I know Yggdrasil isn't right, I openly said thir plan is inhuman, barbaric, all I am saying is that they came up with a logic plan that's the best bet humankind has, and that logically Kouta should be incapable of finding a better route.
Logically.

Because a metal orange falling on his head is logical.

Thing is, Yggdrasil's plan is only the best option because they say it is.
 Kouta, however, simply doesn't have a plan now.

But hey, ten episodes ago blah-blah. Just because he doesn't have one now, doesn't mean he won't. He doesn't have the Kachidoki lockseed now.

But Yggdrasil? They have lied. They could lie again. The only one not full of shit is Takatora. At least he's legitimately greyed and not cartoonish bad-acting supervillain who's obviously evil like Ryouma.

Also, when will we finally hear about Takatora/Micchy's father who actually runs Yggdrasil and was mentioned, like, back in episode one?

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 325573)
Yeah I gotta admit, I didn't realise siding with the villains in a TV show would leave some people taking it so personally. I'm sorry mods if this got out of hand, I didn't think my post would spiral like it did.



To Mandrake!

I mean to Ryouma!

:lol
Pssffttt, I'ma break into Yggasdrill and steal...I mean borrow an Energy Driver :lol

MrHerofan 03-17-2014 07:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 325573)
Yeah I gotta admit, I didn't realise siding with the villains in a TV show would leave some people taking it so personally. I'm sorry mods if this got out of hand, I didn't think my post would spiral like it did.



To Mandrake!

I mean to Ryouma!

:lol
:lol

Locke 03-17-2014 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX (Post 325576)
Pssffttt, I'ma break into Yggasdrill and steal...I mean borrow an Energy Driver :lol
:lol

Who needs Energy Seeds, I'm gonna use the power of the Sunflower Seed through sheer will, like a boss.

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke (Post 325580)
:lol

Who needs Energy Seeds, I'm gonna use the power of the Sunflower Seed through sheer will, like a boss.
Can we please get a Sunflower Seed Lockseed now? :lol

algo448 03-17-2014 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325575)
Bet it would be, wouldn't it?
:lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325575)
Logically.

Because a metal orange falling on his head is logical.

Thing is, Yggdrasil's plan is only the best option because they say it is.
 Kouta, however, simply doesn't have a plan now.

But hey, ten episodes ago blah-blah. Just because he doesn't have one now, doesn't mean he won't. He doesn't have the Kachidoki lockseed now.

But Yggdrasil? They have lied. They could lie again. The only one not full of shit is Takatora. At least he's legitimately greyed and not cartoonish bad-acting supervillain who's obviously evil like Ryouma.
Yggdrasil blows, Takatora is the only person genuinely trying to help, the rest of them have no qualms about going through the plan, Takatora is going through it because he sees no option.

And that's what I see no option, I don't want to blow up over half of mankind, but I don't see trusting the future of everyone into Kouta as a reliable choice either, he's a great guy, but he barely understands the conflict he's going through.

SideswipePrime 03-17-2014 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325567)
Kouta fights to not be a scumbag, like the people who apparently just want to kill most of the population.

Thing is, he knows he has ten years. Yggdrasil wants to kill everyone now. They're the bigger threat than helhiem.

I mean seriously, they were going to nuke the city if a SINGLE invess made it through this week. What kind of sense does that make? Invess have been leaking out for ages, and they want to panic and smash the kill-everything button over one little fly guy?

Super-smart Yggdrasil guys, protecting our future, everything planned out, unplugs the game at the first sign of an enemy grunt.

Exactly.

And yet everyone is like WHOO YEAH GO YGGDRASIL YOU GUYS ROCK!

Puh-lease.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

GoseiWonder 03-17-2014 07:42 PM
http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...rl_opening.jpg

So how does Blondie fit in to Project ARK and the Helheim Invasion? She told Mai to leave Zawame, but if Mai is screwed anyway without a Driver why tell her to leave?

Blondie might just be the source of the better solution than Yggdrasil and their "let's murder 6 billion people" plan.

Kamen Rider Eve/Valkyrie?

SPLIT LIP 03-17-2014 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algo448 (Post 325585)
And that's what I see no option, I don't want to blow up over half of mankind, but I don't see trusting the future of everyone into Kouta as a reliable choice either, he's a great guy, but he barely understands the conflict he's going through.
I'd trust Kouta over Yggdrasil any day.

Kouta didn't laugh when he knowingly killed someone who was once human. Kouta doesn't freak out and want to nuke all seven-billion citizens of Zawame over a single invess. Kouta doesn't lie about every single thing he does to the point of how the hell can you tell when he's not?

At least with Kouta, there's a chance I might survive, verses assured death.

And here's my biggest problem with Yggdrasil's plan I neglected to menton:

How is torching the city going to stop helheim, exactly? Because, uh, it's safe in another dimension. Seems like all the laser-grid would do is just kill everyone innocent and leave helhiem totally unscathed.

Locke 03-17-2014 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX (Post 325582)
Can we please get a Sunflower Seed Lockseed now? :lol
:lol

algo448 03-17-2014 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325593)
I'd trust Kouta over Yggdrasil any day.

Kouta didn't laugh when he knowingly killed someone who was once human. Kouta doesn't freak out and want to nuke all seven-billion citizens of Zawame over a single invess. Kouta doesn't lie about every single thing he does to the point of how the hell can you tell when he's not?

At least with Kouta, there's a chance I might survive, verses assured death.

And here's my biggest problem with Yggdrasil's plan I neglected to menton:

How is torching the city going to stop helheim, exactly? Because, uh, it's safe in another dimension. Seems like all the laser-grid would do is just kill everyone innocent and leave helhiem totally unscathed.
Fair enough, Yggdrasil sucks, I simply happen to prefer an already existing plan that the guy with no idea.

But hopefully Kouta will come up with a good plan that saves as many people as possible.

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algo448 (Post 325596)
But hopefully Kouta will come up with a good plan that saves as many people as possible.
Just don't let Mai come up with a plan. All her solutions involve dancing, and dancing will not help you here you annoying little girl.

Battlizer 03-17-2014 07:49 PM
Little did we know...that debate over ideologies and ideals was just the beginning of the conflict. We didn't know how much time we had to spend our days carefree posting and debating. We didn't know when the true forum-wide conflict soon to come...

Bah buh BAAAAAAAH buh buh buh buh-BAAAAAAAH....

SPLIT LIP 03-17-2014 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algo448 (Post 325596)
Fair enough, Yggdrasil sucks, I simply happen to prefer an already existing plan that the guy with no idea.
An existing plan that kills everyone anyway.

algo448 03-17-2014 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325603)
An existing plan that kills everyone anyway.
Not everyone, and it's just in the context of the show.

If we didn't know that Kouta would come up with a better plan (on virtue of being the hero) things would look differently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX (Post 325600)
Just don't let Mai come up with a plan. All her solutions involve dancing, and dancing will not help you here you annoying little girl.
She's just a dancer, she comes up with plans reagarding her work/hobby, nobdy expects her to save the world through it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlizer (Post 325602)
Little did we know...that debate over ideologies and ideals was just the beginning of the conflict. We didn't know how much time we had to spend our days carefree posting and debating. We didn't know when the true forum-wide conflict soon to come...

Bah buh BAAAAAAAH buh buh buh buh-BAAAAAAAH....
:lol

SideswipePrime 03-17-2014 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlizer (Post 325602)
Little did we know...that debate over ideologies and ideals was just the beginning of the conflict. We didn't know how much time we had to spend our days carefree posting and debating. We didn't know when the true forum-wide conflict soon to come...

Bah buh BAAAAAAAH buh buh buh buh-BAAAAAAAH....
O_O

SPLIT LIP 03-17-2014 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algo448 (Post 325607)
Not everyone...
Yes everyone.

Takatora was going to blow up Zawame that day.

algo448 03-17-2014 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325611)
Yes everyone.

Takatora was going to blow up Zawame that day.
I'm talking world wide.

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325611)
Yes everyone.

Takatora was going to blow up Zawame that day.
So you're assuming the people in the bunkers would die as well?

SPLIT LIP 03-17-2014 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by algo448 (Post 325614)
I'm talking world wide.
Pfft.

They probably have some ridiculous scheme to blow up the planet, too.

algo448 03-17-2014 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325616)
Pfft.

They probably have some ridiculous scheme to blow up the planet, too.
Yggdrasil: Powered by Acme.

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 07:57 PM
That does bring up a point though. Even though the show is mainly centered in Japan, it could be possible cracks and Inves are in other parts of the planet.

algo448 03-17-2014 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX (Post 325618)
That does bring up a point though. Even though the show is mainly centered in Japan, it could be possible cracks and Inves are in other parts of the planet.
They mentioned that the one in Zawame was the biggest one, not the only one, so it's a sure bet.

MrHerofan 03-17-2014 08:02 PM
Well, umm just a thought how didn't team Gaim know about the bunkers and all the people in them?

ShockerCon 03-17-2014 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Battlizer (Post 325602)
Little did we know...that debate over ideologies and ideals was just the beginning of the conflict. We didn't know how much time we had to spend our days carefree posting and debating. We didn't know when the true forum-wide conflict soon to come...

Bah buh BAAAAAAAH buh buh buh buh-BAAAAAAAH....
Hoo haha, hoo haha!
Tokunation Gaim now pls

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrHerofan (Post 325624)
Well, umm just a thought how didn't team Gaim know about the bunkers and all the people in them?
Good point. You'd think they'd put out an all city alert or something.

ComicGuy89 03-17-2014 08:07 PM
I'm guessing the bunkers were a secret for a select few people, probably Yggdrasil affiliates. The crack was still a secret after all, so there was no plan to alert the people to the danger.

Micchy knew about the bunkers because he's technically Yggdrasil now. That may be why the rest of the evacuees were eyeing Team Gaim with suspicion, wondering what a bunch of Beat Riders were doing in their safe haven.

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 08:08 PM
I just figured they were eying them because the public no likey them.

Locke 03-17-2014 08:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325616)
Pfft.

They probably have some ridiculous scheme to blow up the planet, too.
I find it amusing, that for someone so intelligent otherwise, you're willing to squash the complexity of Yggadrasill simply because you have a different ideology. They are NOT cartoon villains, and if the complexity goes over your head, that isn't the fault of the Yggadrasill.

ComicGuy89 03-17-2014 08:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XW1n5t0nX (Post 325629)
I just figured they were eying them because the public no likey them.
That probably is part of it too. But I got the impression from the episode that the bunkers were a secret meant to save only a few people with insider knowledge, just like those giant arks in the 2012 movie.

SideswipePrime 03-17-2014 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP (Post 325616)
Pfft.

They probably have some ridiculous scheme to blow up the planet, too.
You know what I don't get? Why Vaporize Zawame? Why not vaporize Helheim?

ComicGuy89 03-17-2014 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SideswipePrime (Post 325634)
You know what I don't get? Why Vaporize Zawame? Why not vaporize Helheim?
They did speculate that Helheim was possibly another planet, so the sheer scale of destroying a forest that big was probably outside of Yggdrasil's means and power.

XW1n5t0nX 03-17-2014 08:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicGuy89 (Post 325640)
They did speculate that Helheim was possibly another planet, so the sheer scale of destroying a forest that big was probably outside of Yggdrasil's means and power.
Plus there could be cracks open when they did it. It's possible if the blast was strong enough, it could rip through the other cracks and take out parts of the city.

Battlizer 03-17-2014 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShockerCon (Post 325625)
Hoo haha, hoo haha!
Tokunation Gaim now pls
I'd definitely watch it.


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