Indigo', don't bother, sometimes it's best to ignore when people are trying to provoke a heated argument >.>

I still have something to say about this though ( don't have I a lot of stuff to say?)

Perhaps Toku is huge in Japan, but as a company, if I see that I can get customers outside of it...I would just try to get those...Money is money.

The only thing I wouldn't do is trying to catter to the Americ...western audience.
Not like what they're doing with Animes...

If only there were a block button, dude. People that do that have no business being here.

Oh I absolutely agree, I don't like it when they make things to cater to the west, especially given the current climate. For one thing, they'll focus on "diversity and inclusion" and make character X and Y, just because.

It's not even a question of PC stuff.
It's more like "We are alienating our longtime fanbase in the profit of another one that in the long run won't stay"
That's what happened in Video games basically, westernazing their japanese games so that it looks like some kind of crappy western game.

Also, as shallow as that will sound, if I watch dramas and tokusatsus, it's not to see westerners every single time.
I'm glad that westerners aren't heavily represented in Tokus BUT, as weird and contradictory as it sounds, I appreciated to hear some english, german and french in Zero-One. It was a nice touch to show that Humagears and ZAIA had an international presence. (Which is barely shown in the series)

Without wishing to come across as confrontational, there is a danger, I feel, when people act so casually dismissive of "diversity and inclusion" of throwing people who genuinely yearn for that inclusion under the bus. The things that you love are not diminished by entertainment catering to a broader audience, the will still be there, unchanged by whatever new interpretations arise.

Again, I'm not trying to raise your ire, but please consider this.

As above, sentiments like this make me worry, because it comes across as if you very much want to keep people out of what you consider to be "yours" and that makes me somewhat sad, because, well, for a start, it seems absurd for adults in the West to wish to have the final say on who is "the longterm fanbase" for a show aimed at Japanese children.

I'm not trying to pick on either of you, but I also wouldn't feel right in not raising this because I think there is a broader discussion about media, and about the way it has catered to a specific audience in the past, and the way that audience is behaving now.

Not, of course, to defend any of these big companies, whose only real decision making process is what will make shareholders happy. Still, we make our own fun, I guess; we interpret media in our own way.

You mean like Kyuranger?

The irony of Kyuranger having input from Toei's western partners when it never even got picked up for a PR adaptation.

I'm sorry, but is there any way to cut down on the word salad there and get your point across better.

I was attempting to be polite to you. As you ask, however, when you boldly rally against "diversity and inclusion" it makes it sound as if you have a far narrower worldview than I would like to credit you for.

dreamcastegirl, hey, you misunderstood me : longtime fans here are japanese, not us.

Caution : Ranting :

But even so, I'm sorry but including some stuff just for the sake of getting a broader audience is a big no no.
That's what has been done for some mangas,animes and video games, and now these things are utter trash.

RE is just but a shadow of what it previously was because it tried to cater to a strictly american audience (hey, sorry...)

Sonic Team has beaten to death the Sonic Franchise by incorporating useless stuff like the Original Character Do Not Steal in Forces. (DeviantArt fandom)

Star Wars went full on misandry, shat on its original fanbase, and is now utter crap if it wasn't for the spin off on Disney +.

Dragon Ball/Super....Tried to cater to mainly the american audience in terms of fanservice, is void of any substance there could be...

The original Nier sold greatly in Japan but Square Enix America told the Japanese branch that Replicant wouldn't work in the west because the hero was a brother wanting to save his sister.
The original American Nier sold poorly and we are now, 11 years later with the Replicant version, THE OG, and it's outsolding the American Nier.
And you know what SQEXUSA said to Japan? " Oh well sorry, the american audience prefers the brother instead of the father in the end, we fucked up you should have gone with your original vision"


Why are people trying to fix what's not broken?
If your formula worked for some westerners and your main fandom AKA Japan, then WHY the hell do you want to take cues from the USA?!

Also...Really? Taking cues from the US...FOR THE REST of the world? European culture is vastly different from the american one.
The african culture is also vastly different from the american one.
Why do we have to have japanese stuff with silly decisions made by the US?
We just want the original experience, what japanese people would experience if there was no input from foreigners. (still need the sub though >.>)

And I don't think that most western tokusatsu fans want to see more americanized japanese stuff.

It's like, it would never come to my mind to give my opinion about some american stuff and say "change that, it's crap". I don't like it, I don't watch it, it doesn't need to cater to me.

Look, Kamen Rider Saber is its own thing, I watched 3 to 5 episodes, it didn't click to me, you never see me talk about it nor give my opinion on it.
I'm just like "Ho well, it isn't for me, move on"

When it comes to making things readily available, I'm ok with the US or any westerner taking part in the plan, but straight up telling Toei or the japanese to change their way they view things is just....errrr... just clean in front of your door before telling to others to clean theirs.

I really don't understand that mindset. (And as most can tell...yeah I'm pissed off >.> so sorry if I hurted anyone.)

Summary: Gatekeeping

I apologise for not registering that, that's absolutely my fault, sorry.

That would be historical lack of representation and misrepresentation in media across a spectrum of cultures. One of the ways in which we learn is through identifying with characters in fiction, and when you can't see that, when that image of you is nowhere in the world around you, then it can be a very saddening experience. Considering others, trying to include others... I don't see how this can diminish any narrative.

I do appreciate your point, you would like for a sense of authenticity in what you wish, for it to be the "original" project, and I'm not really sure what to say there as such is highly subjective. I don't necessarily believe there is an original project, and if there is, I don't believe we can experience it as we're bringing our own ideas and feelings to the table every time we engage with the story; even watching tokusatsu with subtitles, that is an interpretation rather than the original story.

I am confused at how you arrived at some of your examples, though, and this idea that Star Wars is somehow now a franchise based around a central tenet of hating men I find to be incredulous at best.

This is where we get into the difference between a story and a product. In the later respect, there's a whole host of reasons why you would want to do this with a product, mostly because of lack of market retention and the desire to make more money.

You're fine, honestly, and I apologise if I come across as challenging your views. I think maybe we simply have different opinions based on how such media has treated us.

Damn right, you tell it as it is dude. I completely agree with you. Targeting a broader audience and changing the product to fit it that makes it lose its identity and the product suffers greatly from it, and then fans start to leave it.

Forgive my bluntness but aren't you then advocating in favour of exactly what your argument Chasing was about in the first place: that if you can't meet some arbitrary criteria, you don't deserve to participate.

Then tell me who is and is not part of that audience. Tell me who you think deserves to be included in media.

And think very carefully before you do.

I think I found a better way to convey my feeling :

Targeting a broader audience doesn't equal to changing the product.
If we came to like Tokusatsu as it is, the only thing Toei has to do is NOT changing the product, but making it readily available worldwide.

Changing the product to target an audience never worked because you end up loosing your established customer base and the new customers will eventually stop from caring. ( Say hello to the Wii/Wii U with the arrival of casual players it didn't work in the long run)

I understand, yet I feel that it is inevitable that the product must change, even for the Japanese market—otherwise Kamen Rider would still be a show about a cyborg on a motorcycle kicking Neo-Nazi mutants.

However, even if it does change, it doesn't mean that you are somehow locked out forever; those former stories still exist. It's no secret that I've not been a fan of some of the directions modern toku has gone in, but I feel it would be pretty monstrous of me to insist that everyone here only watches Stronger just because of how I feel about those choices.

Can you explain to me who you think is asking Toei to change anything? I can't see where anyone here said that in the first place.

And what changes do you think they're making that's driving away the audience?

I would say, dreamcast(e)girl? (see my pun?)

That's what I understood from their interactions.

As it was said, the product might have to change, and if something like Dragon Ball changed to be more to american's taste, that might happen with Tokus.

As for "changing", like it happened in the Showa Era versus Heisei is much more an attempt at modernizing the series than changing its real core elements.
Because in the long run, you still had some of the original Rider tropes in Heisei and Neo Heisei riders.

There's a thing I would love to discuss but that's another topic (I'm full of contradictions).
It's women in Tokusatsu. So that will have to wait a bit I guess.

God, and I thought this site was more chill about the idea of diversity than most other nerd websites. Was Naki being non-binary, or Yua being the first female tertiary Rider a sin against the great and forever unchanging Showa ideology, forced upon an unwilling Japan by evil American SJWs? Or is it possible that the world as a whole has become a more progressive place, not just in America, but in Japan too?

You didn't like Dragonball: Evolution then? :p (I'm joking!)

I think the original Dragon Ball itself is already an interpretation of American tastes, drawing its influence as much from Superman comics as Chinese texts. In fact I could argue that Dragon Ball is not an authentic translation of Journey to the West, but it would be silly, because I enjoy both of these stories.

I'm labouring the point and I don't wish to sound tiresome. I keep coming back to how Power Rangers was received when it was originally aired, and whilst I have never paid much attention to the show, I always thought it sad that one of the ways in which people mocked those stories was because they sought to represent a broader and diverse cast. I will end my comments here, but I really don't think it would be a bad thing for stories to learn from such an example.

5 pages later and still, no one has any idea what the fuck you're on about. god knows you probably don't even know what you're talking about, yourself.

change happens no matter who you are catering to. the franchise has changed a fuck ton without any attempt to expose more of it outside of japan. many will agree that one of the only things that keeps this franchise interesting is the fact it IS constantly changing. the fucking world has changed - you should change with it. "Why are people trying to fix what's not broken?" doesn't sound bad on paper but it's a horribly ignorant way of looking at the world and representation - and you've made it clear you aren't smart enough to realize why or how.

and none of your examples really check out or do anything to drive your point further.


you have a really horrible way with words, and that's coming from the guy who just got a warning for saying some dumb shit yesterday. the fact you have no idea how and why his point is wrong is genuinely killing me...please be less oblivious.

I swear to god it sounds like both of you are stuck in 2010.

Chasing :
What I've been saying isn't from 5 pages ago, you are clearly out of the loop here.

I'm just straight up ignoring you as you're being rude and just love insulting people...

Fredbob392 : You make me want to elaborate on one point I didn't want to for the time being, but I guess I will have to.

I actually think that Yua, Naki and Izu are the right step in the right direction.
It will come as weird, but I don't care about someone's sexuality of someone's gender identity, it's their own. ( as in, I'm not bothered at all, you do with your life what you want) I wasn't talking about this at all.
The point I wanted to talk about is how women are represented in tokus in general (aside from Sentai...and even there I don't find it to be that good)
My point is that you have too few female riders for an entire cast of male riders, it's like it's more of a sausage fest. I would love to have more female riders or important female characters ( and Zero-One, Build gave us this)

Another thing and it's about actors now, is that, correct me if I'm wrong, but most of the female riders are played by....stuntMEN right?

From what I remember, Valkyrie was played by a stuntwoman but it's far from being the norm.

I would love to see more..."representation" there aswell. One stuntwoman for one female Rider.

If that makes sense to you?

dreamcastegirl : I'm really liking talking to you, you are the polite kind ^^
Also, I agree with your point raised on your last post.

In that case, I have no idea what sort of point you're trying to make, because weren't you just complaining about not wanting change?

I feel like we've gone completely off the walls of the original topic here.

All you think is about inclusivity and stuff like this. Is that a recurring thing America? That the only change you can do to a product is about inclusivity and diversity?
I wasn't talking about that change at all. As I don't give any shit about inclusivity and diversity. I don't even understand why some characters being gay, non binary or stuff like this is such huge deal.
Perhaps it's a cultural thing as in most civilized countries of Europe, these kind of debates are moot since equality is a thing in some of our countries.

I gave the perfect example about why some changes are bad and can hurt the product.

I talked about NieR as an example, it was the perfect example as to what type of changes you shouldn't have.
The original protagonist in Japan was a young man. In the US and the rest of the world (thanks to Square USA) was an old overly muscular guy.
THAT change ended hurting Nier in terms of sales and SQEA told the Japanese branch that they fucked up.

That's what I'm pointing out.
Changing for sake of appealing to a certain audience isn't good.

I thought I made myself clear.

Do you understand my point better now?
I don't even understand how we came to talk about "changes" like these when we were talking about making Tokusatsu readily available worldwide.

I agree with what MKDremare said.

Unfortunately, America barely counts as a first world country, and we do still have to fight for the right to equality. Sorry for assuming that's the sort of changes you were talking about, in most nerd centric discussions, those are the sort of thing people unfortunately complain about. I think I understand what you're trying to say, even if I'm not sure it's really as big an issue as you're worried. Regardless, MKDremare and GreenPsychoRanger are right, this is getting way off topic

I agree completely.
At the same time, I think we pretty much covered the subject.

That yes, if there's a time when we won't be able to watch as easily as now our favorite Tokus, we will still find a way to do it.

We just have to hope that we'll get a official worldwide way of watching it.

I'm saying that because from what I understand, the USA are a bit luckier on that side than Europeans.

Wasn't this thread about copyright laws and how that's effecting fansubs, what's even happening here anymore...?

Well, someone said something, then other people disagreed, which lead to this long debate that revealed that none of us really knew what anyone else was talking about.

I feel like both the arguments that happened in this thread would go easier if people remembered that it's easy to not realize how valuable something is for other people when you've always had a (relative) abundance of it yourself.

Like, my knowledge of how to access toku is currently very limited. For some of y'all, two of the sites you use going down would be no problem, you'd just switch to others, but for me that would be both my sources gone and I'd be up Mill Creek without a paddle (hai, Aruto ja naito!)

And for those of you who have always seen superheroes of the same gender and sexuality as you everywhere you look, it entirely makes sense that you don't understand why representation matters so much to those of us who have precious little of it. But that's no call to dismiss it as forced or pointless just because you've never felt the lack of it.

Anyway, to go back to my first example and try to stay on topic for this thread, would any of you more experienced toku fans be so kind as to explain how this "find the raw and download the subtitles as a separate file" business works, in language a total noob can understand? So far I haven't downloaded episodes at all, I've relied on streaming sites.

I've only done it once, and it's been awhile since, so I might be explaining it badly, but from what I remember, you'd download the raw of a site like Nyaa, then download the subtitle file off the subbers site, then rename the raw file to have the same name as the subtitles, put them in the same folder, then when you watch the video, it'll use the subtitles

It's actually a lot easier than that, most modern video players like VLC or even Windows Movies & TV (the default video viewer for Windows 10) let you add subtitles to any video.

So you can find the raw video (essentially a video recording ripped directly from TV or a disc which will have no subtitles) and then find a subtitle file (typically a .srt file but it can also be any number of plain text files.) and apply it to the video.

Both the RAW and the SRT can be found at various, sometimes disconnected places. The RAW is found most commonly on torrent tracking sites (just due to their size and legality) and subs you can often find on personal websites or blogs (because they are small to host and have no legal recourse for existing).

Depending on the video and sub file, they sometime don't line up, but you can add or remove delays and make edits to the text file yourself using a plain text editor.

So yeah, places that provide the video and subs all in one download certainly make things easier, but the resources are out there to help you find your way.

If you want to get into it even more, while streaming sites are the ultimate in convenience, they are frowned upon in the community because they essential take the work done by encoders and subbers and place it on their site to generate ad revenue and install malicious software on unsuspecting users.

Honestly, a lot of content creators, including some big corporations that you wouldn't suspect, are actually okay with their content being distributed for free, the issue comes from when

A) Parties attempt to make money off of content that isn't theirs or has been granted exclusively to someone else. Example: streaming sites that host content that is licensed by a pay-for-service (not necessarily the original rights holder)

B) The identity and ownership of the property becomes misleading and reflects poorly on the original creator. Example: Cheap knock-offs of Figuarts that are sold as genuine and give people a bad impression of the Figuarts line causing lost sales.

Intellectual Property rights are as complex as they come, but they boil down to protecting the creators. They don't always line up with the way fans consume content, but at the end of the day, they are truly necessary, especially in today's society in which non-tangible goods are incorrectly considered low-value/free and decentralized of ownership. If you follow tech news, or maybe just news in general, the rise of NFTs is just one of many misguided attempts to rectify this ideology of open ownership brought forth by the internet at large.

That is really helpful to know, thank you both!

Last I recall, I wasn't insulting people on this site, so check what you say before you say anything. So I'd move on If I were you.

You called dreamcastegirl's well thought out post "word salad", dude.

Also, I forget who brought up Resident Evil as an example of diversifying being a bad thing, but that example couldn't be more wrong. RE7, RE2 Remake, and RE8 are three of the best reviewed installments of the entire franchise and the sales reflect it. Also seems weird to cite an example of a franchise that ALWAYS was aimed at Western audiences.

Most importantly though, where are the mods?

you don't even need to merge raws with subs anymore. no one's making you do anything extra. it genuinely has never been easier and long time anime fans end up doing the same thing when they want to watch stuff in its original quality.

the same places you can find the raws are always the same places where you can find episodes that have already been merged with the subs. how else do you suppose there are IzuSubs torrents available to download, when the subber themselves only upload subtitle scripts?

not to mention that the quality on streaming sites is HORRID compared to taking a little extra time to torrent. the fact these streaming websites ask you to turn off your adblock should be a sign that you shouldn't be using them.

like I said earlier, neither streaming sites nor torrents are affected by this ordeal. nothing about this inhibits your ability to consume toku. if you want to watch toku in shitty quality then your favorite streaming site will have no problem finding the torrent, and then reuploading it in shitty quality just for you.

If I had a gun with two bullets, and I was trapped in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and this thread, I would shoot this thread twice.

So here's the deal. You're not gonna have to marry any subs and raws. The files you download are gonna be the exact same as they were before. You're just gonna download them directly from the NYAA tracker, and they won't be advertised on Twitter or the subbers' homepages. Check out the Over-Time Discord channel for more on this.

I've heard it theorized that the raws might actually be more illegal than the subbed video files. I doubt this would stand up in court, but the argument is that the subbed files could be covered under fair use exceptions, as they're not exactly the same as the copyrighted material by virtue of having the subs built-in, and the added content is an unique "interpretation," similar to a parody. Regardless, the raws are the files that are going to be harder to find for now.

Do also note that there has been no legal action taken against any of the subbers, and Over-Time specifically has gone underground to avoid getting their own Cease & Desist letter.

If anything changes, and you end up needing to download the raws and video files separately, plenty of resources educating you on how to do this will crop up. Suffice to say, it's pretty easy, and everyone can take a breath.

TLDR: keep calm and search for your fansubs on NYAA (and, occasionally, Anidex) from now on.

This ^^^^

Look, I know the current situation has people in their feelings. But even where certain parties on this thread are correct (this isn't remotely the end of toku fansubbing, you're just gonna have to look in different places for the same content), their message is being delivered in a way that is further agitating the people who are already freaking out.