The best Den-O ship to me is [SPOILER] and [SPOILER]. I just love their chemistry in [SPOILER]!

Or, as TV-Nihon translated it, "stinky flower woman."

I love the way you put this, it makes me clutch my heart and go awwww!

I absolutely second what you say bout the tone and presentation of some of the shows—I remember having a similar issue when DCD first came out, although I guess in the case of that particular anniversary show, it was a lot more self-contained in its retellings of those previous shows. With Zi-o though, I found myself honestly stumped as I can probably tell you even less about the Heisei shows after DCD, than the ones before.

I digress! What really matters is when you do find a show that clicks with you, it makes everything else seem worthwhile. Again, I'm really happy you're enjoying this!

I distinctly remember reading a TokuNation story about an Agito character appearing on a then-upcoming Zi-O storyline and feeling this crushing weight of Welp Gonna Have To Watch Another Ten Shows I Guess. Thought I could skate by with a measly ten Heisei shows, but no. Needed to do the full twenty, for better or worse.

On a different topic, it's been weird to me how little the tone evolved from Kuuga to Phase 2, versus what feels like seven of the same vaguely similar action/horror/drama approaches until BAM Phase 2 tone starts with Den-O. It's less like a steady introduction of different tonal elements, and more like a goddamn switch got flipped. I did not expect everything I loved about Phase 2's tone to just show up in one series, fully-formed! That was a bit of a swerve!

honestly if I wanted to get someone into Kamen Rider I'd recommend starting with this/OOO/Ex-Aid even if Gaim/Blade are my favorite Rider series I wouldn't recommend Blade to a newcomer because of how weird the pacing is at the start (As in most Rider shows begin with us explaining how our MC gets his suit/his powers and other things Blade our MC already got it before the start of the show) and I consider Gaim to be the franchise's Magnum Opus as in it's so good to the point where everything else seems like shit in comparison hell Drive was hated when it aired for the simple crime of having to follow Gaim (fortunately Ghost/Ninninger sucking so much made people give it a fair shot) and Gaim is kinda like another show I watched called Steven Universe where the first quarter of the show is much more lighthearted than the rest of the show and MUCH HARDER to get through if your going in blind/don't know what's coming though you do appreciate them more because of the foreshadowing

I relate so deeply! I remember during the OOO arc of Zi-o, and already I was on thin ice, having not watched anything but a handful of crossover movies featuring OOO, and then this guy turned up with his fan and his comic relief, and everyone kept telling me how clever it all was, and I was just like, whois this clown?! :p

It's like the most Kobayashi thing and the most un-Kobayashi thing ever, sometimes at the same time. I guess she has two settings, lol.

He did say no spoilers. Though it doesn’t help that the man comes from a different show altogether

As someone who started with Ex-Aid and fell hard for this franchise, I can definitely vouch for it as a good starter series. Empathetic Hero Has To Team With A Variety Of Charismatic Jerks To Prevent The Apocalypse is more-or-less the logline for every Phase 2 show, and that is Ex-Aid to death.

Other good starter series would be (to my mind) Double or Fourze, but it really depends on who I'd be recommending it to, you know?

So, yes, no spoilers... but the spoiler was thwarted by the fact that I literally have no idea which OOO character that could be. My inability to retain Kamen Rider information on a long-term basis saves the day!

Does my confusion at a successive show unrelated to Den-o count as a spoiler? I apologise all around if it does!

I'm mostly looking to stay clear of info from shows I haven't watched yet, which includes Kiva, Decade, and Zi-O up. But I brought up that Agito thing, so I can see why it would feel okay to elaborate on. I definitely opened the door! But, again, my own brain failed to connect the comment to a character, so we're all good. No harm, no foul.

my only issues with Ex-Aid were that it borrows a LOT From Gaim(though Build is worse about this to the point where the entirety of the Hazzard arc might as well be Kachidoki's debut dragged for 5 episodes) that being said due to it being an anniversary show I'm more forgiving to it than Build. How many dramatic scenes that got ruined because of them shoehorning a joke that was more or less them cramming random shit down your throats screaming "HAHAHAHAHHAHAH LE RANDOM FUNNY XDDDDDDDD" and the third one (which is kinda ironic because of the second complaint) the episodes from Kuroto's death-his ressurection kinda dragged(I said this is ironic because he's the biggest offender of the "HAHAHAHAHH LE RANDOM Funny XDDDDDDDD" down our throats and he is funny sometimes)
on the le ranodm funny complain on Ex-Aid a lot of fans especially old school HATE Den-O and accuse it of doing this which as you'll see it knows when to take itself seriously

No, no, it's my fault. I'm glad I wasn't specific though. Sorry for treading so close to the line, especially as someone who prefers to avoid spoilers also.

She either writes wonderful treatises of the value of humanity and kindness in worlds that reject it through the lens of a chaotic relationship between a kind man and wild violent maniacs. Or she writes Amazons. I don't think she knows what "in between" means!

If I may add, this is a real hard expression to translate from Japanese to English and the term nosy girl kinda loses its original meaning/intent during translation. Hanakuso is the Japanese word for booger while hanatare being the Japanses word for snot(keep this in mind after episode 11-ish when we get into[SPOILER]). The more literal translation of the insult is "booger lady"(which I agree doesn't roll off the tongue easily) implying that Momotaros is irritated of Hana scolding him like an annoying little booger. And as DreadBringer pointed out Momotaros is trying to be clever and uses Hana's name for a dose of the usual Japanese wordplay.

ahah, I fear you might be right!

*goes back to trying to pretend Amazons never happened*

We can spoil the hell out of the Showa era, though, because Die couldn't care less that both Ryoko and Kiriko die in episode 8 of X or that General Shadow is secretly part of the Delza Army.

Die doesn't even care that this entire show is a golgom plot.

It's all the Great Leader of Shocker really. Even the plans that contradict the other plans.

King Orphenoch? Great Leader of Shocker.
The Sealing Slab? Actually the 17th form of the Great Leader of Shocker's immortal soul.
[REDACTED]? Oh you'd better believe it was the Great Leader.

the only shocker thing i care about is that trooper from the ooo thousandth episode story

please don't tell me if he's in zi-o

KAMEN RIDER DEN-O EPISODE 4 - "GET OUT, DEMON! I'M SERIOUS.”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den4a.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den4b.png

It's cute! It's a very cute story.

I mean, there's still a bummer of a final note about the indifference of the universe and the idea of failure and success being largely meaningless terms, alongside an episode-length look at the ways we conflate material wealth with happiness at the risk of our ability to deal with setbacks, but, y'know... a cute story about partnerships!

Smart choices in this Momotaros/Ryotaro story, right up and down the episode. After finding out that Momotaros has been using Ryotaro's body to get into scrapes with Yamagoshi and rip off the mob, Ryotaro is putting his foot down. We've seen the scared Ryotaro, and the unlucky Ryotaro, and occasionally the courageous Ryotaro, but this is our first look at the principled Ryotaro.

Ryotaro can't hurt people. That's, like, the core of his being. Everything about Ryotaro spokes out from that concept. Helping Hana as Den-O, getting pummeled by street youths, risking the timeline when someone has fallen emotionally... it's all in service of not letting someone be hurt, through the action of not hurting someone. He's all about saving people, never about causing them pain. It doesn't matter if the money comes from bad men, or if it's going to be used to help Yamagoshi feel better. Taking things is wrong, because someone is hurt by it. It doesn't matter who. That's not the point to Ryotaro. It's an action that introduces more sadness to the world, so he's against it. Period.

But Momotaros, his partner in this adventure against the Imagins, isn't burdened by these morals and ethics. Momotaros isn't a thief, but he doesn't mind protecting some thief if there's money he can gain to pay back Ryotaro. The ends justify the means, so what's the harm?

That attitude is why Ryotaro cuts off Momotaros, and it leads to a pretty stellar Rider Gets Beat Up To Prove A Point fight scene at the end of this one. Ryotaro fights the Chameleon Imagin in Plat Form, because he won't let Momotaros out into the world. He can't beat the Imagin, but he won't indulge someone who can't see how his actions were wrong. He'd rather lose with his principles than win with Momotaros' relativism.

So we get the brave, principled stand of Ryotaro, that ends with a request for both more and less than Momotaros' vow to only do good, to stop using Ryotaro's body for nefarious purposes. That full-throated refutation of his roguish ways is nice and all, but Ryotaro doesn't need that. He needs contrition. He needs Momotaros to admit he was wrong, and apologize.

That's so cute to me. That you've got this huge, heroic scene of Ryotaro taking a stand, and Momotaros impotently watching from DenLiner while begging to be tagged into the fight so Ryotaro doesn't get monster-murdered, and then it's just Ryotaro wanting his partner to say I'm Sorry. Like, the specificity of that is so great. He doesn't need an explanation or a justification or a roadmap for an ethical life. He needs Momotaros to realize he screwed up. That's it.

Having that understanding between the two of them, where Momotaros has learned some respect for how hard Ryotaro believes in certain things, and Ryotaro sees there's more to Momotaros than his worst impulses, it's a sweet story to tell.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/deno/den4c.png

THE BAGGAGE CAR

-And then there's the resolution to the whole story, where... it's bleak? It's a little bleak, and I liked it. Yamagoshi's past has been altered, so he makes it to his big audition, but it doesn't matter. His band fails the audition, they break up, and Yamagoshi is still hawking his CDs for 500 yen. He doesn't have the regret of If I Only Had The Money, so he's a little more content, but he's not much better off than he was before he ran into Team Den-O. It's a humbling moment for Ryotaro and Hana, that they couldn't really save Yamagoshi, but it's viewed as an encouraging outcome by Owner. See, if time can't be altered, that means Den-O will always win. The Imagins' mission to destroy the past will always fail. It's not great for Yamagoshi, but it's okay for the universe, and maybe that's enough?

-Another weird tangent of a trip to Milk Dipper, which covers for its vaguely inessential feeling by giving Airi a non-Airimirer to play off of for a change. (Zero Airimirers this episode! WE DID IT!) Her scene with Hana was pleasant enough, even if the best part was the cutaway to Naomi's mad scientist barista skills. It's just, everything about these little Airinterludes feels so inconsequential, and they're the first thing I'd cut if it meant more time with our core trio. Not a single one of these scenes has felt additive to what's going on, even ones like this that are actually nicely poetic! Just, man, they feel like diversions.

-Everything the Momotaros suit actor is doing to fill out that character's identity is brilliant. The physicality tells you everything about his boredom, his wounded pride, his need to feel included, his guilt, his growing admiration for Ryotaro... like, the VA is great, but I could tell you everything about Momotaros without a single line of dialogue, and that is all down to the guy in the suit.

I guess you could say regarding the Main trio that the show has managed to string you along.

...That guy is also Takaiwa by the way! Been meaning to mention that at some point! I don't think I'd get a lot of pushback for suggesting Den-O is some of his most impressive work, and Momo is but one of many reasons why.

I really love this two-parter, by the way. I recall rewatching it on a whim maybe like a year or so after finishing the series the first time, and ever since then, I've considered it something of a definitive Den-O arc. It's so straightforward in what it's doing, but so perfect in its execution. It's a huge reason I love Plat Form as much as I do, which is to say, it's a huge reason I love Ryoutarou as much as I do.

I feel like this is a reference I'm not getting, but: yes! You could say that!

I sort of figured, but thanks for the confirmation! It's such an integral suit role that I assumed he was performing as both Momotaros and Sword Form (since they can't ever be in the same scenes together), or he was just performing the Momotaros role. Momotaros needs the best actor to make him work, and every smart choice Takaiwa makes elevates the material. Clearly they wanted to start the Imagin suit actors with a climax!

It's a good story. It's just about Momotaros befriending Ryotaro, and Ryotaro showing where he'll draw the line, and it works because (save an Airi scene or two) that's all it's trying to do. Even the Yamagoshi stuff is kept to a couple lines of dialogue, because his arc is not the important one for this story.

And it's... it's kind of putting the lie to Owner's Nothing Changes line, because while Ryotaro's efforts didn't change Yamagoshi, they did change Momotaros. Trying to help people has a larger effect than whether or not that one person improved from the effort. I like that way the Momotaros story undercuts the existential futility of Owner's wrap-up.

One of the things that annoys me with Den-O is when people write Ryotaro off as a wimpy loser. This episode is one example of why I think that argument is bunkum. Ryotaro can't fight, that's true. He's never going to be taking on waves of mooks with his martial arts skills. It's not fair to call him weak, though. Where Ryotaro really shines is in the strength of his resolve.

It takes a lot of guts to go into a fight like this episode's without a real chance of winning. But Ryotaro does it just to prove a point. He does it because he's willing to take a beating in order to convince Momotaros that he was wrong and that this partnership isn't going to be just a case of Momo taking his body for joyrides whenever he wants. It's a good way to earn the respect of someone who values strength.

Yeah, it's a story where the first part is Ugh Just Let The Cool Guy Take Over From This Wimp, and the second part is Actually The Wimp Is The Most Bad-Ass Guy On The Show. The first part is all about explaining how Momotaros sees Ryotaro (a weak bore), and the second part sketches in what really drives Ryotaro, and why he's worth rooting for. It's maybe not my favorite early-series partnership episode (Kabuto, obviously), but it's succinct and sweet.

That person is quoting a character you haven't even meet yet. While I generally frown on such things, it doesn't actually spoil anything. It's just a catchphrase.

That's what I thought. Thanks for the heads-up!

Forgive me if this has already been addressed but the delinquent with the baseball cap in episodes 1 and 2. Yeah, that dude. That is Kirihiko Sudo aka Nasca Dopant from Kamen Rider W and Cain from Gokaiger.

It hasn't! Good catch!

I'm with Fish in considering this just 'the' Den-O arc. I must have seen this, lik, 6 years ago, and it just sums up the show's mission statement in one. Sure, maybe you can't change the big things in time, but you can do small things, and even those small changes can make all the difference. Pre-Sid may not have got that big break, but he no longer has the guilt weighing him down, and that's something. Momotaros is still a hothead, but he's starting to gain the most begrudging respect for this kid he's bonded with. And Ryotaro... yeah, he may not be the most physical, but that doesn't make him not strong. A good, precious boy.

It's that trope where somebody who looks timid and feeble on the surface is actually very strong-willed and independent (and sometimes scary). Ryoutarou is kind of a pushover, letting more athletic people beat him up and tolerating muscle strain from Momotaros possessing his body. But he won't run from a fight and there are limits to what he will allow from Momotaros' delinquent behavior, like he doesn't mind Momotaros having fun with his body as long as he doesn't commit bad deeds. He's definitely not a coward. His strong will is what allows him to resist Momotaros' possession and he even trolls him with the wish, which shows that Ryoutarou has wit as well.

This subtle confident trait that Ryoutarou has is probably what the outwardly confident and confrontational Momotaros relates to and admires and it's Ryoutarou asserting that trait that allows Momotaros to see him as more than just a timid and feeble pushover and closer to an equal, even though Momotaros is still a very selfish and narcissistic person, albeit in a comedic way. It's the opposite for Ryoutarou, who doesn't put much worth in himself but always sees the worth in others. Momotaros' "I'm sorry!" was audibly frustrated and reluctant but he probably wouldn't have said it at all if he didn't respect Ryoutarou's devotion to getting beat up enough to at least concede that he deserved an apology for all the trouble he was caused. Momotaros has an honorable side as well and between that and just how awesome he is, I think there's a lot of reasons why so many people love the character.

Yeah, this is a turning point for Momotaros, where he started improving a bit, to reduce his visceral behavior. Momotaros does try to make it up for Ryotaro in previous episode after spending all his money, but of course, Momotaros only regards Ryotaro that time, which means, him doing something similar to typical Imagin, although not as bad as them like passively agreeing with the crime (instead of actively doing the crime like Yamagoshi's Imagin). Momotaros is the type who, while probably bonded better with Ryotaro now, still Ryotaro centric, supporting him with little regard for others. Which is still not much improvement if you're only focused on 1 person without thinking of the others (and it can be worse at times with actual villains dooming everything else for someone precious to them). Which of course, people like Ryotaro are mindful about the others. He puts others above himself. If the supportive move will doom others, he won't accept. He'd prefer not getting that if it's about making others miserable. Ryotaro also now had Momotaros on his leash, forcing Momotaros to act more moral.

Well, Yamagoshi isn't much better yeah, the outcome is still similar even if Yamagoshi got his chance. But, while the outcome is probably bleak and not much better off, the act redeems Yamagoshi. In this time, he'd focused on developing his skills, instead of gaining money (through any means), so Yamagoshi isn't a criminal anymore. They didn't save Yamagoshi, but they redeemed Yamagoshi from becoming a criminal. That shouldn't be overlooked, Yamagoshi is still underachieving, but he's not a scumbag anymore, and probably, the act can save him from being hunted by police for doing crimes.

I thought this scene should be the wholesome slice-of-life interaction that you'd normally praise for other Rider series, for just someone coming to a place for a coffee, and talk about them being both related to a certain person. But well yeah. Now I wanna ask though, as Ryotaro was injured in previous episode, do you think that doctor or hospital treatment for Ryotaro would be a better replacement than Airi treating him? It'd be the same for me, just Ryotaro getting treatment for his body pains.

Sadly, one of the reasons people come to fiction is for wish-fulfillment. They want an escapism, and by that they want to experience badass by proxy, by seeing characters they identify with do things that are cool and spectacular, which is about badass main protagonists fulfilling that (and the 'badass' term to those audience being limited to Wolverine definition of going nuts in battle and taking out hundreds of people). If they don't get their wish fulfillment, they'd dislike it and displace it to the character. People generally want to avoid perfect characters (though some can get away from this like Tendou), but giving those flaws and they instead bash the flaw for making them a wuss? Although, you did take a piss at Mihara in Faiz though? (which is like people bashing Ryotaro as loser) He's the character that likely resembles the audience the most, that he doesn't want to fight and wants to stay away from the bizzare Rider stuff surrounding him and live normally.

It's a nice little story that's about appreciating what you've got, which is a fun counterpoint to a series about the ability to change the past. Momotaros needs to be okay with Ryotaro having a say over how their partnership works, rather than being greedy and crying about how he's got oversight now. Yamagoshi needs to deal with his circumstances clear-eyed, rather than trying to re-do something he regrets.

And that's above and beyond how this series continues to drill into the Momotaros/Ryotaro partnership as a metaphor for how we can best channel our emotions into helpful and renewable ways... yeah, pretty solid story!

Episode 4 does a great job of balancing Momotaros' wackier elements with a moral code. He's not just some hedonistic vandal, spoiling for a fight against anyone and everyone. He still views himself as someone worthy of respect, which means he feels bad when his actions are shown to be disrespectful. He's not a good person exactly (he is an imagination monster from the end of time), but you can see a little in Episode 4 how he's starting to see the ways his actions have consequences. It's a start!

That's true! I'm not sure it's a huge comfort to Ryotaro and Hana (they seem a little bummed that their actions didn't create a better outcome), but it's at least now a Yamagoshi that isn't burdened (as much?) by regrets. It's almost like The Toxicity Of Regret is a major theme of the show!

I mean, if Airi felt more integral to the plotting, I'd be all over a quiet scene like this. As it is, it feels like I'm checking in with someone who doesn't have a ton to contribute.

And, no, I don't think Ryotaro needed a doctor. Momotaros and Hana were referring to Ryotaro's "injuries" as being more that he's completely out of shape and totally unprepared for strenuous activity. Some rest and probably some pre-fight stretching is all that kid needed.

Due to his years of injuries and bad luck, Ryotaro can bounce back from anything with a few hours nap and cup of Airi's "Ganbatte!" coffee.

Unfortunately, his nap now leads to Momotaros committing some light vigilantism and/or monster detonation, so the benefits are largely negated. Luckily, he's only got the one Imagin hijacking his body, as proven by the opening credits sequence!

I don't rag on Mihara for his "I don't want to be here" thing - that's actually highly relatable, especially in a series like Faiz and especially especially if you're one of the ever dwindling number of Ryusei School (Go Meteors!) kids who hasn't died yet. I rag on Mihara because he is easily the most forgettable Kamen Rider of all time and he's only marginally less useless than Beast in a fight.

Go Meteors!

Well… let’s just say there’s a reason the belt has 4 buttons on it.

Speaking of the opening titles, am I misremembering, or did the subtitling of the theme song change in the early episodes? I can't remember exactly how, or even if it did, and it's bugging me.

The belt may may have four buttons, but those are just for Den-O Owner form, Hana form, and Naomi form, trust me.

Delta's so powerful, he beat up all the other forgettable Riders and stole their prize from them.