I think they like a funny character?

I dunno, that feels like saying Loki is just like Gambit. Doesn't seem right. *scratches head*

So Otoya is definitely one of the most memorable and entertaining characters from the show for a lot of people, myself included, but I would also like to talk about my favorite 86 character, Yuri! Possibly my favorite heroine in KR. I was in a rush with the last post, talking about different perceptions of art and the connection between Wataru and Otoya, so I forgot to mention her.

I like that Yuri is consistently the most competent and least weird character and how she's good in combat even without a Rider System. As a waitress, she acts similar to Hiyori, with how she speaks rudely to Otoya, but she has no problem being polite and formal around most other customers. Even though it's good etiquette to show respect to all customers equally, I can't really blame her for making an exception with Otoya who totally deserves most of the bad stuff that happens to him. It's not like Master cares either, since his tolerance for Otoya is also limited. Yuri's respect is hard to earn, especially by people whose flaws are always in the foreground of their behavior.

Sure! We can debate whether or not the show is ignoring/forgiving/minimizing Otoya's flaws, but it is undebatable that everyone in this thread has pointed out that Otoya is awful. If there's one point of consensus so far, it's that Otoya is The Worst. We're all on the same page there!

I mean, if you ever bring up a "contradiction" like this, where I praise one show for doing a plot I disliked on another show, my answer is always going to be the same: Execution Matters.

That plot on Blade was... I mean, I'm pretty sure I liked the beginning of it? (I honestly barely remember that show, my thoughts on it, what I wrote, etc. My memory for these things is terrible.) There was some stuff in there that I liked about what Shiori was going through, how she needed to internalize her shame and move on. That was thematically relevant to Blade, the need to recover from failure. The longer the show wanted to spend on some shitty thing her dad did (U.N.D.A.D.? Was that where the story went?), as though she had any control over it, the less I was into that plot. It felt tangential to what was going on there.

With Kiva, the whole story is about Wataru trying to connect with his father. This type of plot is way more meaningful to the series, and way more looped into the themes. Wataru as a character, specifically, is wrapped up in trying to live up to his father's memory. Having that memory become a negative force is... I mean, it is exactly the sort of story this show was built to tell.

Long story short, Wataru feeling immense guilt over things his father did is more important story than Shiori feeling immense guilt over something her did. They have different weights to them.

Some of this hasn't quite happened yet (I think Otoya's only been to Mal d'Amour in the credits?), but, yeah, Yuri having to be the Adult in her relationship with Otoya is pretty great.

Sorry for the late post, I’ve been up to some other stuff (if my new temporary signature wasn’t enough of a giveaway).

So, we’re at the point I knew I was hooked on this show (having been directed to it by Kiva’s appearances in the bumpers for the Sentai that aired alongside it). The idea that (one of) our hero’s actions have consequences and rub off on (a different one) our hero kind of let me know exactly what we were in for with the two times gimmick. And I was all for it.

And we meet Keisuke Nago, the “Kusaka” of this series. During my second watch, I was taking screenshots to share with a Facebook group that specialises in out of context screenshots from Tokusatsu related media and he popped up more than once (at one point leading the group’s admin to make a Mandalorian joke).

First off, congrats on finishing Hurricaneger! I hope you had a good time with watching it and posting about it.

Secondly, yeah, the way the 1986 stuff feeds into the 2008 stuff is one of the strengths of the series. It leads to a very Kamen Rider way of looking at things, where Decreasing Sadness becomes a more massive undertaking, something that it takes multiple generations to try and accomplish. Like, there's a constant struggle to Kiva that I find very smart. The way that struggle lives inside Wataru is what gets me so invested in this show, I think. It's a real Inoue thing, from Agito and Faiz, where making some weird peace with your needs becomes the key to helping others, and how that struggle reflects a society that is trying to balance selfishness with selflessness.

Kiva's a fun show to think about!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...mothersday.gif

Ishida!!!

KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 04 - "REVERIE: WILD BLUE”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva04a.png

Uh... sloppy. Sloppy episode!

It's all the hell over the place. There's a whole bunch of tiny things that get covered/addressed/introduced, but it leaves the main Wataru Reckons With His Father's Legacy story feeling slightly undercooked (the Moth Fangire's motivation feels like it's at cross-purposes from Wataru's story?) with an ending that... uh.

So, that ending. I do mostly appreciate what it's trying to say. Wataru has learned that his father was an unrepentant scumbag (not a fan of Otoya getting punched for being a creep and him going Cost Of Doing Business!), but he's also learned that his father believed in the beauty of the world. Otoya is The Worst, but he's also capable of gentleness. Wataru's learned that his father was complicated, and that's different from being a bad parent. It's a sweet little grace note. It doesn't undo or forgive the earlier revelations about Otoya, but it creates room to be impressed by his sweetness, or respect his artistry. It's a story where Wataru stops deifying the idea of Otoya and starts connecting with the reality of Otoya.

I don't know if the show really earned that ending, though? It's the same problem I have with all of these I Forgive My Terrible Parent stories across the Kamen Rider franchise: the sense of scale. Wataru falls victim to it, here, where he seems to ignore his previous quest to redeem the Kurenai legacy simply because his dad wasn't a complete prick every minute of every day. It's the same with the people whose lives Otoya destroyed. When they see that Wataru is a sweet kid who wants to atone for his dad, both of the victims cheerfully abandon decades of seething rage with a Pobody's Nerfect shrug at Otoya's sliminess and their own (legitimate!) complicity. It's ridiculous, and it honestly made me start rooting for the Moth Fangire for a few minutes.

The episode can't seem to decide if Otoya running around Japan and bankrupting people due to avarice, gluttony, and sloth is a big deal or not, and that keeps this episode from really delivering on Wataru's dilemma. He's shook to his foundations, and then when a Fangire confesses to orchestrating this existential threat because she was in love with Otoya, the stakes, just, like, vanish. Wataru doesn't need to make up for anything, because... something something spurned lover something something unrequited love something something daddy was an artist? There were binders of people who had been wronged by Otoya, and the show doesn't do nearly enough to put the scope of those crimes into any sort of context for Wataru. Why is the fact that his father was an artist some sort of balance against binders of malfeasance?! It'd be a compelling idea if Otoya, like, worked too hard or something. But he's The Worst, and the show seems to forget that right at the conclusion of this story.

(Also... what the hell was the Moth Fangire trying to do? Was her whole revenge against Otoya just making Wataru feel bad? Why? Did she know he was Kiva ahead of time? What if Wataru didn't give a shit about his dad? Would the Moth Fangire have spent years tracking down everyone Otoya wronged for no reason? Why introduce a path towards redemption and then be so shocked that two random victims out of thousands were okay with it? I don't understand anything she was trying to do!)

Putting aside the main story, which has a genuinely sweet message that it absolutely did not deliver on (some beautiful images notwithstanding), the other interesting thing in this episode was the integration of Nago into the core dynamic, and I loved that. Nago's the empathetic dad to Megumi's helicopter mom, and that team is electric to me. Seeing the two of them bicker over who is more helpful to Wataru, and Wataru naturally being 1000% on Team Dad, brilliant stuff. They've got outstanding chemistry (Megumi has chemistry with everyone, best actor on this show by a mile), and Nago fills in the parenting equation this show's going to need going forward.

Like, Wataru is going to keep looking for a dad in the men he respects. There's a part of his development that isn't there, and it's going to lead him to put paternal figures on pedestals. He did it with Otoya last episode, and he does it with Nago in this one. He's innately looking for the guidance and approval he never really got from his real dad, so he'll keep looking for it in other relationships. Wataru's going to let Nago in, and put stock in his opinion, when he probably should be a little more guarded. Conversely, Wataru's keeping Megumi at a distance, when she's someone who's actually capable of giving him unbiased advice. Very curious what the deal is with Wataru's mom; feels like there's a key to his treatment of Megumi in there.

Speaking of father figures! Zanki is a werewolf sword that lives inside the belly of a Dragon Cathedral! I have no comment other than Of Course He Is!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva04b.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva04c.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva04d.png

On the subject of werewolf swords, here's Garulu Form's BGM, which is appropriately feral and hectic sounding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2I8C09wLAo

Kiva's various forms are super cool, by the way. Unabashedly taking a lot of what made Kuuga work so well, but doing their own thing at the same time with Kiva's unique – and extremely busy – design sense. Tying a monster character into them will also seem extremely familiar, but Kiva was pretty careful about making sure the things it copied from Den-O weren't entirely the same. Notably, Wataru isn't getting possessed by anyone, although apparently they do affect his personality, which is why Kiva gets so growly and aggressive here. The idea that Kiva is barely controlling the monster's power with his own was a conscious part of the design, even, which I presume is where the super stylish asymmetry comes from? It's basically like his left arm has a bad case of lycanthropy? The end result is quite up my alley, at any rate.

On the subject of sloppy Kiva writing, though... yeah, something I kind of assumed it'd take a bit longer to get a chance to mention, going back to the discussion about how the show portrays Otoya, is that I recall it feeling quite muddled at points exactly what the show is going for with him? It'll be interesting to see if this kind of thing becomes a recurring issue for you or not.

For the record, I also recall rather liking Megumi, on a more positive note. It's been so long since I've seen the show I couldn't give you a particularly specific answer as to why, but "outstanding chemistry with everyone" certainly matches up with what vague memories I have left. She was a character I remember just being fun to have around, basically? (Also, her little pistol with the wings or whatever? That thing is neat and I like it!)

I love that when you look at Garulu Form you go Kuuga, when the first thing I thought of for it was Agito Storm Form. The blue over the chest, and the one weird shoulder pad? My brain was like Oh Agito almost immediately.

I think the main problem in this story, for Otoya, is that the show wants to have its comedy cake (he's triumphantly awful!) while eating its drama cake (with a sensitive soul!), too. If they'd aimed a little lower with Otoya's Reign Of Terror, they'd have an easier time landing a story about his complicated connection to beauty and art. It's a balance, and this story massively missed it.

She's got this great opposing energy to everyone she meets? Whatever they're doing, she plays the opposite note, and it makes every scene pop.

It wasn't only Garulu Form I was thinking of when I wrote that, but yes, it's pretty great that I'm still eagerly finding any excuse I can to praise Kuuga's foundational nature, and you're also over here going That's Cool But It Reminds Me More Of Something From An Inoue Show. Like, man, what a completely unpredictable surprise that these are the connections we would each choose to make. :lol

My biggest and most positive takeaway of these early episodes, is that I love the way Kiva fights. Just short of being a wild monster, he goes in on the Fangire like a super-aggresive wrestler. It's kind of like that trope of a hero in a kung-fu movie or something going all-out against the villain when they have been pushed past some breaking point, except Kiva is like that at all times.

Al that extends to the form changes courtesy of the Arms Monsters. Garulu Form's sword is wicked cool with that curved blade, and how he sticks low to the ground like a wolf. And then finisher where he puts the saber in his 'teeth'? It's so anime but also so awesome in... you know, I'm not even gonna say in a 'cheesy' way, I just genuinely think it is amazing.

I'd never get tired of the usual kind of martial arts you get out of these toei toku shows, but these episodes of Kiva stand out so much in terms of cheography and aesthetic, that I can't help but wish the franchise would spice it up more often!

It's always best if you and I knock these things out early, so anyone new to the thread knows what to expect. We're not predictable, we're considerate.

There's definitely a feeling like Wataru loses himself in the Kiva identity... maybe on purpose? I can see Kiva being an outlet for someone who's as closed off as he is. It wouldn't surprise me if the aggression of Kiva (vs the timidity of Wataru) was a decision from the production team/Takaiwa.

I laughed incredibly hard (in excitement!) at Garulu Form's debut. The whole sequence is lunacy, which is aesthetically appropriate. Kiva shoves a plastic ampule into Kivat's mouth, and the next thing you know Zanki is racing across a dining hall to scratch at the floor, transforming into a werewolf sword. After that it's a feral Kiva that eventually locks his werewolf sword (that has a debilitating howl attack!) into his non-mouth, careening through the moonlight to detonate a Fangire. It's bonkers. Delicious, delicious bonkers. A series high-point for action sequences. (Best of four! Only the highest of praise!)

You may have noticed that Garulu is Zanki, but did you notice the kid he’s with (who won’t be named for a few episodes) is Daichi from Urataros’ debut in Den-O (I said he’d be back).

Anyway, I’ve not got a lot to say on the episode itself (I have no idea who we were supposed to route for), so I’ll just do the fact file, now that the spoiler taboo is off.

Moth Fangire

True name: The Well Named Corruption (背徳という名の井戸 Haitoku Toiu Na no Ido)

Human identity: Aya Natsukawa

Class: Insect

Rank: Pawn

Actors: Misato Tachibana, Erina Yamazaki (voice in Fangire form)

I think I should clarify that Garulu is NOT a Fangire. He’s a Wolfen, a totally different Demon Race (there are thirteen in total, including Fangires, Kivats and Wolfens. Some will appear in the show, some won’t).

I mean hey, it was you that said something along the lines of "Agito doesn't get talked about much? That's a crime, everyone should be talking about Agito in every situation!!" so you're getting that very justified wish, right?

really looking forward to when die gets told the lore behind kivas bike

Comes from the same magical source as Captain Ghost, the mythical "Sell our toys" land.

I'm pretty sure I had some things I wanted to say after this episode, but none of it really stuck with me. One of my biggest takeaways is that you can definitely see that Kiva wasn't fully operating out of the Den-O playbook. There's probably a lot to argue about how much Den-O immediately influenced Kiva vs. how much Kiva still operated by pre-Den-O standards. Den-O and the Phase 2 shows never would have killed the crossing guard and ramen cart guy. Honestly, that part just seemed really needlessly cruel, no matter how much I like the empty glass body effect.

Also failing to see some of the logic in Wataru and the Moth Fangire's views on Otoya. He's not a jerk because he played violin for some flowers? Not quite sure how that tracks since the measure of his douchiness is how he treats other people, not how he acts when he's alone (which, as his bath scene shows is, is still kinda creepy). Either way, the Fangire's plaid 80s outfit was fantastic (a disproportionate percentage of my posts in this thread are probably going to be me praising 80s fashion and hair).

*gasp* CLAWOLVES! It's all happening!

I really, really don't want the Kivehicle to be Wataru's mom. Just gonna say that now.

This show already has the dodgy-looking CGI monstrosity in Zanki's Dragon Cathedral (not my favorite Ghibli film), it doesn't need a second one.

Oh, no, don't worry; it's something that

A) Is just said in guidebooks and such
B) Is along the lines of What? rather than creepy or weird

I also enjoy the visual of the exsanguinated transparencies. It's definitely a little weird how randomly high the bodycount is in this relatively subdued (no pun intended) Kiva adventure. It's this story about Wataru needing to understand that his father wasn't perfect, but there's still those two guys Otoya wronged who get monster murdered, plus that one dude who was just camping? It's a little unnecessary, and it smacks of some production fears that the Otoya/Wataru story wasn't action-y enough for kids.

Agreed! Weird how half of the outfits in the 1986 scenes have come back around, fashion-wise. That plaid outfit could probably work at some high class event, honestly. Otoya really screwed up when he let her get away!

Sure I know, the execution matters. I'm in general curious about the "contradiction" like this that frequently happens for various people, and I want to get to know, the elaborations of different takes of similar things at least at the surface. Particularly when I see, for a case example, people bashing a series or its aspect (especially when unfairly) but giving another one free pass (this one's usually bandwagon-based, and they'll stay irrational), like for example, criticizing a "mary sue" (read: overpowered) protagonist in one series but tolerates someone like that in other series. I'd say you recall the Blade part pretty well there, though there aren't actually much of Yoshito Hirose part.

What I wonder now is actually how's Wataru's childhood and his raise and growth to an adult, if he doesn't seem to know or meet his dad. I was thinking of Otoya being redeemed and in contrast to his playboy persona, stay faithful to 1 woman to marry and give birth to Wataru. And well, this is probably the opposite part of the talk before where the show downplays the horrible deeds of someone, especially after portraying it as big deal before. Though I don't know if the victims stop their rage because as they see Wataru trying to atone his dad's sins, they, likely overestimating it too much, see it as a hope for a turnover in Wataru restoring the situation (the problem is if he's able to do that or not).

Probably the show isn't going for this and this is a mistake based on the previous one, but yeah this is a case of protagonist-centered morality I talked before where where character or events being good or evil is based solely on their actions toward the main character or if they are the main characters; siding with your beloved ones being portrayed as good in story, in this case, Otoya is good solely because he (apparently) raises Wataru and is a good parent to him. This part of forgiving horrible deeds (or even not giving "appropriate" or excessive punishment) while treating it as a small matter also unfortunately has caused some hate towards any kind of sweet hero archetype, but I think this is a writing blunder not being morally white is bad.

Well, for Wataru at first mistaking Nago for his dad, and him taking up the "empathetic dad" role for this part, there's something about him and Otoya that would be similar. And especially, for both of them have been labeled as the Kusaka of this show, there's something likely not-so-coincidentally similar regarding that. I guess you still see Nago as paragon figure that is meant to be looked up to here... Nago has similar good image Kusaka and Yaguruma before did at first, reminder that he's hellbent on killing Kiva. Though at least for Nago being facade, I do agree that Nago's approach is of course more helpful to Wataru, and Wataru is, if Nago didn't actually have sinister side, right on Nago's side, as Nago's guidance would actually help Wataru develop, and I approve of Nago's idea of Wataru trying to atone for his dad's sins, while Megumi's behavior to Wataru like putting him down won't actually help, and people shouldn't blame all cases of the one getting this treatment as being "snowflakes" for being put on worse situations for scathing, insensitive comments, even if it's "for tough love".

Actually, I don't get where do you think that Hiyori is polite and formal to most other customers... the way she speaks rudely and grumpily is actually, afaik, is applied to most of the customers (and she had other issues like her clumsy traits, but she has excellent cooking skills to compensate). Though I would also say that, "speaking rudely" also depends on what reasons you have. If she speaks rudely to Otoya to legitimately call him out for what he did, then that's actually what should be done because not tolerating wrongdoings is the real respect and etiquette (for overall humanity to prevent others getting bad time). But if they're rude (Yuri isn't likely this as you said she's polite and formal to other customers) for the sake of being rude, then they're the wrong ones too, just that on occassions the victim is someone deserving. Also, though you said that she's good in combat, one of the complains about Kiva (I'm just saying complaint, because it's up to air if the complaint is legitimate or not) is her getting hit by the Distress Ball to become someone to be saved often, not living up to her reputations.

Maybe? It's, again, an approach that's very similar to Ghost, where Wataru is able to unlock the empathy of others by demonstrating his need to atone for his father. It just comes off really weird, where these two guys who've been furious at Otoya for 22 years are now, after one day, laughing off their need for vengeance like it's the most preposterous notion. That is... it's a choice the story makes that props up Wataru's kindness at the expense of story logic, and it's a tough thing to overlook. I really want to! But it's hard.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. What I meant to say is that the way Yuri speaks rudely to Otoya is similar to how Hiyori speaks rudely to most customers, but by contrast, Yuri can also be polite and formal. In Hiyori's case, she's inadvertently rude, while Yuri is selective and deliberate about her rudeness to Otoya.

In most situations, calling out Otoya for his behavior is the right thing to do, but a waitress is expected to treat customers with equal respect, even if they don't deserve it. However, it's okay to scold a customer if they're diminishing the experience for other customers, or staff, which Yuri is, so that's another reason why Master allows her to speak to Otoya that way, nobody's worried about him getting offended and they mostly just tolerate his presence.

Regarding the Distress Ball you mentioned, yeah, I'm going to be complaining about that very soon. Good thing this doesn't happen often. She's still a better fighter than even some female Riders like Rina as Delta and perhaps most infamously, Dark Necrom P.

I don't even have the words to describe how much I love Kiva's style. It's like, between the gothic aesthetic and what have you, there's this real emphasis on the beauty of everything above all else that results in a Rider show with an insanely strong and cohesive visual identity. Like, the Darkness Moon Break, right? Easily one of the best Rider Kicks ever, because they went out of their way to make every single motion and frame of it memorable. The extremely dynamic pose where Kiva raises his leg (which was apparently director Ryuuta Tasaki's idea, inspired by a popular baseball manga, by the way); the unnaturally large but striking moon; having Kiva fly into the air upside-down; I mean it – every part of it is a masterpiece.

And that's only like one aspect of the show! I'd be here all day if I actually tried to talk about Kiva's body language and everything else right now! So yeah, long story short, Kiva's romanticized fight scenes are amazing. (As much I love Kiva's bestial posture though, I've always been convinced it's half the reason the role was so hard on Takaiwa.)

There's also something I forgot I wanted to bring up which thankfully ties into all this, – the rather notable use of stock footage sequences. The lack of them for transformations and finishers was something Kuuga set a precedent for as part of Heisei Rider's unique identity, probably because it felt more "realistic" that way, which is why it makes sense then for Kiva to be the series that only partially stuck to that concept. I remember the form changes in particularly bothering me a bit at first, being so used to the other shows, but nowadays, I can completely understand and even agree with why the decision was made. Those sequences were what allowed for so much of the show's most extreme visual flair, and looking back, they still hold up great. It's the kind of stock footage where you're glad to see it a bunch, you know?

He shoves a whistle into his mouth. A Fuestle, to be more specific. (fue is Japanese for whistle, naturally.) I really like your idea too though!

I mean, I never said I was complaining.

(Also wow I totally forgot I said that, and have absolutely not been taking my own advice in all this time. Turns out I was the criminal all along!) :p

I just found that out the other day doing my obligatory Wikipedia reading! There I was, perfectly ready to lazily skim past the section about Kiva's bike, when the words 馬のモンスターの脳 happened to catch my eye, prompting a huge "WAIT WHAT" from me. :lol

I believe the bodycount is part of a conscious decision to make the monsters as threatening as possible again so that there's an inherent catharsis to them getting blown up that arguably wasn't there in Den-O, where the focus was on having fun chatty bad guys for Momo and the rest to bounce off of. Like Switchblade said, Kiva was still playing by some older rules.

Don’t feel like quoting and editing everything fish said just to reply to one line, but I’m weirdly disappointed that fue means whistle so a fuestle is just whistle whistle.

I can sort of see that (the stakes drastically increase when the two amiable vengeance-seekers get offed), but, like:

https://challengerscomics.com/images...mothersday.gif

The Moth Fangire, like, leaves town to murder one dude? Just some random dude, all alone in the forest? It's so massively disconnected from the Moth Fangire's entire story that it's both hilarious (I laughed at that quick-cut for maybe five minutes) and also completely superfluous. It's one thing to tell a story with darker possibilities and mortal consequences; it's another to just toss in a random murder.

Technically, I guess it's a Whistlestle, which is maybe my favorite toku word ever. From the series that brought you Fangires and Clawolves, it's the Whistlestle.

INOUE FOREVER!

I feel so sorry for the poor bastards who live and/or work in the top floors of that building. You know that "several lower stories may repeatedly turn into a dragon and fly away, dropping your office full-force into the newly vacated space" was never mentioned in the renter's agreement and there's no way that insurance covers that.

TENANT: Hi, sorry to bother you, but I was having a little problem.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: What can I do for you?

TENANT: Well, I was recently trying to take the elevator up to my office on the 14th floor, but for some reason the elevator kept dropping me off on the 22nd floor.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: When was this?

TENANT: Oh, it was during that eclipse last week.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: Tuesday's eclipse or Friday's eclipse?

TENANT: Friday's eclipse.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: Oh, sure, that's easy. The Dragon Cathedral left to devour the soul of a decorative vampire monster, and it took about eight floors with it, so the 22nd floor actually was the 14th floor.

TENANT: The -- I'm sorry?

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: The Dragon Cathedral. And, I mean, I know what you're thinking.

TENANT: You absolutely do not.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: It is a load-bearing Dragon Cathedral, which would normally jeopardize the structure of the entire building when it leaves to help Kamen Rider Kiva vanquish the Fangire menace.

TENANT: The Fangire menace.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: Yep, them. Luckily, when the Dragon Cathedral flies away, the top six floors just drop straight down, so there's really nothing to worry about.

TENANT: Six floors of the building just drop onto the rest of the building?! And there's nothing to worry about?! Are you being serious with me right now?

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: We haven't had anyone move out yet, so I'm assuming there haven't been any problems.

TENANT: Well, here's the first, buddy! I refuse to work in this insane building a minute longer.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: Huh. I guess you could always bring it up with the Tenant's Association. They might be able to get you out of your lease.

TENANT: Well, fine, give me their number.

BUILDING SUPERINTENDENT: Oh, they don't have a phone. They actually live in the belly of Dragon Cathedral, playing chess and turning into the occasional werewolf sword. I can tell them to swing by your office, see if they can help you out. That said, the Dragon Cathedral is sort of the final arbiter, and that thing is not happy with folks who want to break a lease. Just FYI.

TENANT: ...I cheerfully withdraw my complaint!

Hey, here's another fun fact I learned about Kiva: that building is actually modeled directly after the publishing company Kondansha's headquarters! (They publish quite a bit of Rider stuff, naturally.) To my knowledge, the real thing doesn't have a dragon castle built in, but you never know!

KAMEN RIDER KIVA EPISODE 05 - "DUET: STALKER PANIC”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva05a.png
https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva05b.png

A story where a group of men are shown to be patronizing and mostly useless, while a variety of women try their level-headed best to do their jobs? Don't mind if I do!

I feel like Malcolm, the owner of Mal d'Amour, is maybe the only respectable man in this episode. Every other guy is either controlling, or confrontational, or gullible, or a Fangire. They're all pretty worthless this episode, which is kind of an unusual choice.

It's a great choice, though? It's the most testosterone-soaked episode I can imagine, where every man in it is locked into bizarre approximations of masculinity, vainly trying to fit into some shape that literally no one is asking them to fit into. Nago is ostensibly keeping an eye on Megumi because he thinks Kiva will rescue her again (he's right, very genre savvy), but it's mostly just so he can crush her spirit and prove his superiority. Wataru is so blinded by the need to channel Nago's Big Dad Energy that he agrees to stalk Megumi. Otoya's limitless pride is wounded by Zanki's leather-clad beatdown, so the two of them engage in an epic street fight that Yuri leaves halfway through. And then there are multiple Fangires abducting our heroines, and they are (hilariously) the least-regrettable elements of this story.

It's funny as hell, don't get me wrong. Nearly every gag in this thing kills, and the soundtrack is so heavy on plussing up the comedy that it's almost impossible not to grin throughout this thing. I genuinely enjoyed this episode for what it was doing.

It's just... I don't know. I laughed a lot at this episode, but it's doing a really weird thing with its male cast. It's pushing all the men super far out into Creep territory, but only so it can (I assume/pray) pull them back into Misguided But Basically Good territory for the conclusion of the story. Like, it's not a story where they're growing from Good to Better; it's a story where they're pushed to Awful so they can grow to Good. If that makes any sense?

I don't know that anyone is specifically out of character, weirdly, which is maybe a damning thing to say about this episode. (An episode I liked! I feel like I'm going to have to keep saying that!) Nago trying to control Megumi is pretty much expected from him at this point, but the whole gaslighting thing about her not really disliking him, she's just jealous of his greatness, that is a new wrinkle. Wataru being easily misled (and way too trusting of confident men) is also well-established. I don't know if I love him never once saying Hey Is Megumi Actually Okay With This while he monitors her in a pool or rifles through her belongings, but again: way too trusting of confident men. (Even ones who look like Ryotaro being possessed by Urataros, the least-trustworthy look imaginable.) Even Otoya's newfound love of fisticuffs feels likely from someone who thinks that highly of himself and works that hard on his presentation. It's all... everyone here is just 10% more themselves than usual, which is both alarming (they are already very themselves!) and also not big of a deal (it's only 10%). This one's calibrated a little heavier towards comedy, and that means a world of lunatics is going to get even crazier.

Except for Megumi and Yuri, who are pretty much the voices of reason for this episode. (Shizuka's only in one scene, because if she continued in the Wataru plot she'd shut it down in about two seconds.) It's up to them to constantly reframe what's happening as horrible decisions men are making, not anything for their benefit. Megumi gets the scene of the episode, when Nago tries to blame Wataru for spying poorly on Megumi when Nago told him to, and Megumi just goes No One Should Have Been Spying On Me You Idiots.

The things these dudes are doing in this episode... they are all terrible. They all have this idea on what a man should do, and how a woman should be grateful for that decisiveness, and it's all pathetic. Wataru is the only one who realizes his mistake, feeling equally bad for disappointing Work Dad and Work Mom. That scene, with Wataru moping in the tub, it actually leads into a scene that felt disconnected to me at first, but now I think it's the key to Wataru's arc in this story.

Out of nowhere, Kivat asks Wataru why he even fights as Kiva. After all, Wataru's spent an episode being utterly complicit in awful behavior, while also loudly declaring his various personality flaws to anyone in his orbit. Why does this pushover fight monsters? It's his father's violin, he says. There's a message it puts out, to Fight, and he feels it in his soul. He feels the music so deeply that he can't second-guess it, can't run away from it. There's a version of him that knows what to do, but it's usually so covered up by What I'm Not that he gets confused, follows the wrong examples. It's what saves him from being as bad as Nago or Otoya in this episode. Wataru is someone who feels incomplete. He looks for other people to give him purpose, or direction. He's enamored of Nago's self-confidence, so he abandons his own decision-making. But if he stopped for a second, listened to what's inside of him, maybe he wouldn't be like every other dude in this story. Maybe he'd be comfortable inside of himself, and stop trying to be something he isn't.

Anyway, I did enjoy this episode. It's not perfect. It's a story about misbehaving men and sensible women, but it gives itself over almost entirely to the misbehaving men. (There's a couple sweet scenes of Megumi and Yuri that helped drive home their invisible bond. The way they both twirled their keychains in the parking garage was touching.) It's funny from front to back, but a lot of that humor is from the show stretching its cast into mostly unheroic shapes. It's critiquing performative masculinity while also painting the walls with testosterone. It's as likely to offend as it is to entertain, which is a very Kiva way of telling a story.

Worked for me, though!

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/kiva/kiva05c.png

There's probably no better track to sum this episode up than the peppy one that plays while Otoya and Jirou are childishly duking it out, which is literally titled The Rock and Roll of Lonely Men, as if hanging a lampshade on the entire plot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNyPbEjGsis

And here we are, with the full debut of Jiro in the 86 scenes (he’s basically going to be an Ankh/Genm character, in terms of morality if nothing else).

And back to the present, here’s this week’s bloodsucker.

Sheep Fangire

True name: The Clown Dances with a Turkey at a Fireplace (道化師は暖炉で七面鳥と踊る Dōkeshi wa Danro de Shichimenchō to Odoru)

Human identity: Noboru Kurumae

Class: Beast

Rank: Pawn

Actors: Mitsuyoshi Shinoda, Katsumi Shiono (voice in Fangire form)

And no, in case you’re confused, you’re not seeing a mistranslation/ hearing things when Nago says “henshin”. TV-N even gives him his own background (a stylised crucifix). Though you’ll have to wait to see Kamen Rider Van Helsing in action.

This fight is very humorous! I especially love the part with Shima politely walking through them as both Otoya and Jirou stare at him dumbfounded before the music resumes and they immediately continue punching each other. It's such a cliche fight over a girl which I think is an intentional part of the 1986 setting, but the nonchalant way other characters react to it is what sells it, almost like they're aware of how superfluous it is and just go "whatever" and move on.

Anyway, Jirou, he's very cool. Characters portrayed by Matsuda Kenji are always cool. However, in contrast to the experienced mentor type Zanki, Jirou/Garulu is a flawed antihero type who acts as a rival towards Otoya, as they are both in opposition to prove themselves to Yuri. If Kiva has a Kusaka like some people are saying, I'd say it's Jirou.

I noticed this as well. He lacks Urataros' charisma though. You could even say he's sheepish! :p

Yuri is totally a reasonable person, but Megumi? Sure, what she says is true, she does have the right to her own privacy and Nago is self-righteous in his crusade against "evil". But the reason why Wataru looks up to Nago is due to how impressionable Wataru is. Nago is a skilled manipulator and knows all the right things to say to get Wataru on his side, while successfully provoking Megumi with his patronizing to convince Wataru of his perception that she's pitiful, misguided and in need of their protection, due to her immaturity. It's also understandable why Wataru may be reluctant to trust her after she tried to shoot him (as Kiva) in the back. Nago's first action is usually to preach to the enemy what sin they allegedly committed, so they know why he's about to become hostile to them. It's still hypocritical, but at least it's courteous. Even though what Megumi is saying is still right, she lacks the credibility to refute Nago's claims about her. She's not like Yuri who is able to attack an argument using logic without letting her emotions get the better of her.

I'm sure it frustrated no small number of viewers, but I loved the Henshin fakeout. That moment where Nago's all Please Watch My Transformation So I Can Kill You, and then Megumi screams, the fight's over, to be continued... perfect. Just an A+ delayal of the suit action and superheroics that Kamen Rider is known for.

There's a thing the show is doing, where the 86 and 08 stuff is constantly Awful Men, but there's a way that the 08 dudes dress it up in Concern For Women that... it sort of feels like the show is trying to say something about how men didn't get better over the decades, they just got better at obscuring their awfulness. Dunno. Definitely going to need a couple more episodes to say for sure.

Favorite gag of the episode goes to Wataru's extended "wtf man?" stare when his new partner starts getting alarmingly specific on describing Megumi.

Close second place to the Jiro/Otoya fight for reminding me more than anything of Hugh Grant and Collin Firth awkwardly duking it out in Bridget Jones's Diary. Bonus points for Yuri's immediate disinterest.

D&D geek speak incoming:

Nago is a paladin. Specifically he's the kind of paladin that can be good to have in your adventuring party, but sometimes you just get into situations where the stick in his ass starts getting in the way of things. There is a definite arrogance to him that's not as obnoxious as Otoya's... anything, really - but that absolutely makes it harder to like him. He's like that guy that's really cool to hang out with until someone mentions The Last Jedi.

Yeah, Kiva's sexual politics is... well, I'll say that I wouldn't argue with Kurona that the show has serious problems with women. There are a lot of different shades of toxic masculinity on Kiva and I don't remember how many of them get refuted and how many get reinforced. I know that the show definitely doesn't play it all up as the correct way to treat women, but I would never call the show feminist.

It's a problem for the show, absolutely. There's an aggressiveness to Inoue's writing style (heightened characterization, comedic cruelty, melodramatic backstories) that can make him be a bit of a bull in a china shop when it comes to certain topics. I don't want to get too out on a limb here, since I'm only on episode 5, but he's definitely creating a lot of intriguing conflicts that have a real-world vitality to them. It's just, once it's got that real-world vitality, you need to make sure you're not just exploiting that energy. It needs to have a message, and that message better be worth the uneasiness of the story choices.

Like, for me, I kind of love that the show is bringing up this sort of stuff? Having a huge thread on the show be Navigating A Mixed-Gender Workplace... like, that is an interesting thing for a kids show to bring up! That is pretty fresh narrative ground for a Kamen Rider show! But, boy, really need the show to have some more awareness of how it's using some of these tropes to keep it all from feeling regressive and exploitative.

I've tried to wait and see before posting this, and I don't want to pick on one particular member or sound like a broken record by criticising the US, but I feel like I have to say I am not entirely happy with some of the assumptions some people in this thread have appeared to make. It's not like I love 2008 all that much to be fair being as admittedly I've generally always preferred 2004 and previous whereas 05-08 was more just retrospectively not too bad, but I don't think you can assume that 2021 is automatically morally superior on every issue in an absolute landslide, or that if parts of the world that might be sympathetic to the US like for example Europe or East Asia aren't taking perhaps a more ''American'' approach to gender equality then that makes that country wrong to do so. I personally think constantly separating genders is less likely to help either men or women, I found the lumping in of Wataru with more stereotypically macho men on gender alone particularly wrong considering I did relate to him at the time and also technically (although brief, especially where I live) the emo trend of 2008 was also at least challenging male gender roles a bit more than for example whatever bland 2009 onwards year.

Again sorry if I've gone in too hard too soon but I just sometimes feel like people are assuming that everybody has somehow automatically had some sort of cut and dry life almost like in a film, when actually around that sort of time there were some things in my personal life that were not great for either a 15/16-year old boy or also young people with autism, you can debate things like how common my experiences are but you can't debate whether or not they actually happened.

I want to be supportive of you, tomos, but I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. I don't think anyone is being malicious on purpose or making assumptions about individual experiences, and I don't think anyone is claiming that your experience is not valid in any way. Yet despite still being a dumpster-fire, I think we are slowly moving towards a better place that I personally would have thought unimaginable in 2008.

Sorry, I may have just taken some comments the wrong way.

For what it's worth I do at least like now better than 2009-12 because in my personal life that was terrible, but then if I was going on personal life not a lot of years would be that up there I suppose! :lol I suppose 2008 was semi-memorable being my last full year of school and where I live Facebook and Twitter probably did take till 2009 to catch on (they are my main problem with today whereas Bebo at least seemed marginally better!) but I admit I did find this thing yesterday about someone who planned to live in the 2000s for the rest of his life and I've got to admit maybe that is taking nostalgia just a bit too far(!), plus arguably some people on the internet seem to say they miss 90s things that are actually readily accessible to buy like Hey Arnold and Toy Story, but don't actually spend less time on computers!