I definitely feel like we talked about it before, but I also can't remember for sure, so I'm happy to talk about it again!

Ryuki's setup really does excel at bringing the concepts of its world, the heroism and the danger, into the home. Kuuga and Agito have monsters that are out there in the world, and later series would have allegorical monsters that take advantage of needs and desires, but Ryuki made sure that their monsters are coming from inside the house.

Kids who like to be scared (which is to say most kids in Kamen Rider's target demographic) could pretend that there was a monster hiding in a hallway mirror, or a turned-off TV, and do a quick Henshin to pretend they were in there with them, battling to protect their family.

It's a smart construction, to make the danger more universal.

This episode in particular has always stuck out to me, I think. Even if you don't entirely agree with Shinji on going out of his way to save Asakura's life (which I'm pretty sure is everybody), you understand why it's important for him to do this. If he hadn't saved Asakura, regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong, it just wouldn't be Shinji.

That said, and this is not really relevant, I really wish dragon man could give snake man a beat-down. It's an action show after all, and I think at this point of the show when I was first watching, I was thinking to myself 'gosh, our main character has not really had a good showing against anyone who is not a mirror monster'.

Remember how way back in this thread’s wild years, I said that Shinji was too generic and promoted some… passionate response? Well I’ve gone further in the show and changed my mind. He’s annoying as all hell. And you’ve summed up part of my problem with him.

I have to explain it again after the show does. Mirror Monsters, when they failed to eat specific person, they will not and never change targets until they get that person. That's what happened for Mika. Asakura used her as a bait for the Buzzstingers, Asakura saved her (in unknown ways, he was seen just standing beside her) from Buzzstingers, which made them failed to eat her, and therefore as how Mirror Monster works, will continue to target her, which would make the monsters easy to track on where and when he'll appear (the area Mika's in) with Asakura staying besides her, using her as their bait. Look how he didn't care, didn't even flinch when Venosnaker attacked her (and somehow Mika wasn't killed?!) to get Asakura. Besides of that, so Asakura's "monster battle" are shown in this episode by dodging his pets' attacks I suppose.

Yeah, the harsh truth is that there's someone misguided that will see him as a savior, which would make Asakura someone worth living, for Shinji, if only to take care of Mika's well being (though he also said he may not want to see someone die). I know and understand Shinji's character and mindset to save Asakura if only for the sake of the other, but I don't advocate Shinji actually indirectly endangering more innocents by this act of saving Asakura, especially that there are no way stopping Asakura now except by killing him as one of the Riders; prisons are nothing to Asakura now, his Contract Monster can help him escape.

But other than that, remember when you were freaking out about how OP Asakura is
(but Ren also has Survive!)? This episode now explains the drawback of pulling the stunt Asakura did, he has 3 monsters not only to battle, but also to feed. He has to work 3 times the other Rider does to feed them, or he'll be eaten by one of them, especially Evildiver and Metalgelas still seeking vengeance for their masters. And like you being ok with Kitaoka torture, I like watching Asakura suffer, like when Knight Survive curbstomps him before, and when Kitaoka gloats to him here about his impending doom where he'll be killed by his own monsters. If Asakura truly dies by that it'll be an interesting means to end him IMO; gaining more power, only to be killed by that act.

So this is actually the clear reason of why you aren't into that kind of plot (The only thing I can say is that for ORE, they're also mainly investigating the disappearences throughout the series). But I think for this one, the real point is that Shiro shows more of his villainy that he'll dirty his hands to keep himself on the upper hand by personally sending monsters to people who may disrupt. Though for some reason, Shiro killed the professor instead of Reiko, one of the only person who asked about stuffs he knows related to Mirror World (and that the murder was completely silent the moment Reiko looked away even when he sits besides her). So either people are secretive about Shiro, or Shiro personally kills them. I wonder what'll happen if one of the people Yui interviewed back then actually wanted to co-operate like the professor here and not be secretive, that would Shiro send his monsters to kill in front of her sister, would Yui still repel the monsters (personally sent by Shiro to do his job) after them, etc.

No offense but why I'm feeling like some of the audience can have callous and sadistic tendencies (I know it's about fictional universe, but I feel that this can be an overall mindset, as numerous people can be sad for example, their favorite fictional character's death), that the only (or mostly) entertainment they enjoy are the pain of others and killing. Which will make them detest those that would take them away from that like... morals, like Shinji here who is a pacifist that doesn't want to harm others. Because he's that type of character he's bashed in almost every category, only bringing up his negative parts (like you saying here he has not really good showing against non-mirror monster). To Riders he had some upper hand to Ouja in both ep. 19 and 20 (in ep. 21 Asakura cheated, and admittedly he lost in ep. 23, but just saying that their battle can go either way), and saved Knight (this is for monsters, but Knight is a known badass Rider) from Volcancer and Gai (twice here). And as human he can do what Ren does too here. I consider those that can fend off Mirror Monsters as good showing for the overall character.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...y_to_Topic.png
https://challengerscomics.com/images...i/ryuki27d.png

Like I said, that’s not PART of my problem with Shinji. I don’t like the violence in this show (namely because I thinks it’s gratuitous, poorly handled and goes against everything Kamen Rider as a franchise stands for. My hatred for Shinji is because his constant preaching of his morals has become more infuriating after 35 episodes with no changes to his worldview. And the fact the show is constantly shitting on those morals makes me hate him more, since it makes him look like an idiot. Especially when you’ve got guys like Ghost, who’s morals are founded and rewarded, or Zi-O, who realises his morals aren’t working and drops them, in other series, which just makes me look down on Shinji more.

Also, killing the monsters would be a cool feat… if the show gave them anything more than wild beasts with poorly defined origins and no motivation. Especially coming between two well-handled groups with very clear motives. The fact that the show still insists on using them long past their ability to generate drama just diminishes their significance.

It's a tricky line, for sure.

On the one hand, that's just not the story they're trying to tell. They're trying to tell a story about a warrior who doesn't want to fight other warriors. Having Shinji get into a brawl with Asakura, especially in this episode... it'd break the show. It would make the show about nothing.

On the other hand, though, I think it's fair to ask Is That A Story Worth Telling. For some people, that's going to be a Yes, for some people, a No. I'm not sure there's anything wrong with saying you don't have an interest in the story that's being told, or that you wish they'd have told a different story. It's not weird to look at a superhero action show and want to see the superheroes fight.

It's just, this one's about why they shouldn't fight, or why fighting isn't the best solution. Doing something that subverts the audience's expectations, it's going to make people love it or hate it.

I mean, that's a great explanation, but I'm not sure how much of that is in this story. (The "bait for Buzzstingers", I'm not sure anyone confirms that.) I like that explanation, but I'm still comfortable saying that Asakura's motivations and actions are mysterious in this one. No one out loud explains exactly what he's doing, and we never see what happened with him on the first boat trip.

I think it's a hallmark of what this show does right, to have Shinji maybe make bad decisions in impossible scenarios. He won't allow Asakura to die, but they can't capture Asakura, and Asakura won't change. That's an awful choice for Shinji to have to make, which is why I'm glad the show posed it that way. Easy choices are boring!

I guess I'd disagree on the violence part (there's still so much less action than I remember from Phase 2 Heisei), but that feels subjective to me. If you think it's too gratuitous, I can't really dispute that opinion.

The Shinji stuff... not sure I'm seeing that at all.

I think a lot of what like about Shinji's character in this show, and the dynamic as a whole, is how much he's challenged, morally and ethically, by the other Riders. On other shows, Ghost in particular, it was a little frustrating for me how quickly some adversarial relationships would, after one story, realign as Ghost Knows Best. It seemed like a waste, to take that friction and replace it with falling in line, easy acceptance. With this show, I like how Shinji doesn't get a pass just because he's the main character, how the other Riders get to keep their own viewpoints, how the world of the show is designed to make Shinji's choices more difficult.

And, man, I feel like Shinji's worldview has evolved a lot? If anything, there've been times where I feel like it's switched around too much. He's always going to be a guy who thinks he knows best and jumps in without considering the consequences. But all that "shitting on" Shinji the show does, I like it because it forces him to refine his arguments, consider other perspectives, look beyond his own experiences. It's never going to flip him 180 into a ruthless fighter, but we've seen how Shinji's morals meet the reality of Rider Battles, and I've liked the story that's come out of that.

And the monster thing... I don't love it. It's not my favorite type of monster, where they're just beasts. But, with 13 Riders to tell stories with, it's maybe better that show doesn't also try to tell stories with the monsters? That might make for an overstuffed series.

I don't like stepping in like this, but please don't be so quick to judge someone because they hold a different opinion on a character from you and assume so much about them. I'm sure you didn't mean it, but this was a little bit too harsh just because the person doesn't like Shinji and thought he should have done things differently, and was a little difficult to read.

Probably some differences in subs, but TV-Nihon does that.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...63028/bait.png

And isn't Asakura's motivation pretty clear? He simply wants to feed all Venosnaker, Evildiver, and Metalgelas at once to survive, and Buzzstingers, which is a pack of 3 monsters is the way to feed all of them simultaneously, as feeding only one of them will have him get eaten by the other 2.

Well yeah I guess I got carried away there, but I'm probably just a bit exasperated of some people, ironically like what he said there about Ryuki, constantly shitting on those morals, and using various excuses to the point of nitpicking to constantly shit on characters like Shinji based on how they're morally good, while constantly worshipping morally grey and black traits.

Yeah, those are the subs I'm watching. It's just... I don't know if I believe Asakura? He says she was bait, and it seems reasonable (Ren's probably screaming I KNEW IT in his brain), but it's just his word that that's what happened. It certainly wouldn't be out of character for him to lie, and if did help a little girl he probably wouldn't want to cop to it. Doesn't do a lot for his brand, you know?

To me, it feels like some gray area. Not saying you're wrong, but I don't think there's a definitive answer to be had on this one.

Hey, speaking of gray areas, let's talk about keeping discourse civil.

(Thanks to Kurona for bringing this up. If anyone feels like things are getting too heated and/or unconstructive, please don't be shy about citing it!)

One of my feelings about discussing art is that you can't really change anyone's mind. If someone doesn't enjoy a piece of art, all of the explanations and clarifications in the world aren't going to make them like it. Similarly, if someone loves a piece of art, telling them all of the reasons why it's bad is at best unhelpful, and at worse, kind-of a jerky thing to do. The best we can all do in discussing art is explaining our perspective, and respecting other people's perspectives.

It's fun to talk about these shows. It's fun to say what you liked, what you didn't like, and get into debates about why something did or didn't work. But when you start getting upset at the way someone else views art, just keep in mind that they feel as strongly about this franchise as you do, even when you see things differently. It's okay to disagree, and it's fun to debate, but let's please all stay friendly about it. We're all Kamen Rider fans, and we're allowed to get different things out of Kamen Rider shows.