Yikes! There are complicated, adult topics I like seeing Kamen Rider explore, but that is not one of them. That's fraught material for even the most delicate touch, which... I can imagine a whole bunch of ways for Inoue to be indelicate.

Thanks for the info!

Yeah, you totally understand the composition of the love triangle. And now you know Kusaka's primary goal, his twisted love for Mari, surpassing even his desire to destroy the Orphenochs. "When I henshined, it was for you." All his manipulation is for this. He can't let guys like Kaido and Kiba steal her from him! That's how he thinks. It must have been pretty tough for him as an orphan kid with a mysterious past he doesn't want to talk about. He had no parents to love him or teach him to be a good person. Kusaka's a broken man whose idea of love is built on this foundation from his childhood. He doesn't even realize when he's doing something immoral in pursuit of his goals.

Well the other show in 2003 is Abaranger so I presume you're referring to Yatsudenwani's crush on Ranru? That was mostly played for comedy though. At least the Faiz novel is non-canon and Kaixa has his own manga now where he's just the usual amount of a**hole.

Unfortunately, there are people who hate Kusaka, obviously because how he's a shit-stirrer.

Pretty much yes, Kusaka likes conflicts. He's an ultimate bully. He's a villain protagonist. Think of him the way people would see a villain (well, you're new one to the franchise, obviously others fully know about this). And this would be, conflicting here (but more conflicts yay!), but this is what I meant for the comment I said here about don't promote people being scummy and cruel to others and give them free pass in the name of building chemistry (more excuses for people being terrible then). Kusaka and Takumi having a total animosity towards each others, and you.... ship them here (nice ship name though, with the "k" on Takumi and the 2's names having initial K connecting well). :eek:

From the shipping, I feel that it can convince people that being cruel to others is just them building a tension relationship with you, giving them more free pass to commit vile acts ("he's only teasing you because he likes you" defense to bullies that happened in irl is a softer indication, of that)... bad message! By that, I would never ship arch enemies, like for Ex-Aid, as much as I like Kuroto and that I would like for him to never change his ways (he has no redeeming qualities or any plans to give himself one, but there's a way to lessen his threat in story like mutual goals so he wouldn't antagonize heroes), but god, I would like for the story not to build good relationship between Kuroto and others, I want everyone to keep genuinely hating/disliking him for what he's done, with exactly zero frenemy traits ("only behaving like worst enemy outside but deep down friends" type, like all the insults, threats, and potshots are all of genuine hatred. I also want for people to not have frenemy thoughts, like those who thinks Kuroto turned into new leaf). As much as I like the characters, I'm viscerally opposed against Kiriya/Kuroto pairing, I don't want them to warm up to each other and become bros, ever! And Ex-Aid actually did that so I appreciate (though there are people who thinks about frenemy vibes), like Emu never forgave him even with Kiriya being back.

It being centered on Mari, I've talked about it back in the very first episode, with the pushy dudes around her. This now just elevates more, if only because this revolves around the main cast instead of the unnamed like them. And this relationship drama is Inoue's sthick, a choice that diverges from the plot, and can be polarizing too, as with what Kurona said in Fish's Kuuga thread, some reason for people to hate romance is that it's forced in anything, in a story that doesn't demand it. So Takumi only fully respects Yuji, for now? To support Mari with him. And Kusaka's main character has just shown here, but what will he do to the cast wouldn't change, but that's his motivation, actually previously he also carried Mari's picture in his wallet, and sucking himself up to her, and threatening Kaido away from Mari (agreeing with Mari calling him her boyfriend too). He's a full on Yandere with him threatening Yuji at the end.

There's also Yuka and Yuji trying to hook up Mari with Kaido. Those 2 calling Mari up to discuss things like this... I guess they can be.. tactless sometimes :p Though it's nice to see both 2 sticking up for their friend Kaido, that he's more than just what's seen outside. I guess Mari should've expected this with her finding Kaido in the place where Yuji live. At least they're also balanced to consider that Mari isn't ready to fall in love yet (on the outside, but this being centered on Mari like the pushy dudes before, she's not genuinely neutral to boys like that).

So Lucky Clovers are taking turn type of villains? So yeah it depends on which Lucky Clover character making the move then for the fun part. Who they'd pick? Is that because Lucky Clover is restricted to certain number of members that they can only pick one? If not both can be picked no problem. Kaixa teaming up with Yuji to take out the nuisances... that's pretty much the only reason why Kusaka's on the protagonist's side, he hates humans, but he hates Orphnochs more. There's a part where Takumi and Yuji are considering themselves to tell the other about the identity though...

Though yeah, the weirder/funnier ones are those suitable for fillers like episode 20 back then. And it can be a break of the story, but unfortunately probably cannot be used all the time. And though you prefer it, weirder/funnier ways isn't the one objectively good for everyone (if Inoue hate is any indication), nothing is.

Yeah, it's almost like being adopted by an eccentric plutocrat and forced to go to a mysterious underground school with other orphans maybe wasn't the most useful upbringing for creating emotionally healthy adults? Just throwing it out there! Also, Mari referred to young Kusaka as a bullied coward, so... yeah, probably got a real weird idea about friendship and competition.

I mean, no? He's a terrible human being, but I don't want to think of him as a villain yet. I like to think of him as a complicated individual who views all interactions as a zero sum contest, where he can't win unless they lose.

Yeah, when I'm shipping characters, it's always about the specific chemistry of the actors. I don't feel like Kuroto and Kiriya have a chemistry I find exciting? Like for rivals, Kusaka and Takumi have a combustible energy in their scenes, and that sort of pairing has a ton of story potential. Honestly, though, it's Takkiba that has my heart. Those two are adorable together.

Oh, definitely. I'd never pretend that my very specific preferences were in any way universal. My brain thinks weird things about Kamen Rider!

KAMEN RIDER 555 EPISODE 23

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--1--

I feel like the show is still figuring out what it can do with Kusaka. There’s a… not a tentativeness, but a feeling out, maybe, of how far they can push him. This episode’s a Kusaka spotlight, and they pretty much give us a look at every aspect of his character.

It’s nice to see how much they can dig into him. We’ve seen him as a dick to Takumi, a creep to Mari, a rival to Yuuji, a menace to Orphnochs, and a powderkeg for everyone. What this episode has to do is take all of that, reiterate it, and try to make it all seem like facets of one (supremely unhinged) person. I think it was successful?

--2--

One of the big elements of Kusaka is his scheming nature. When I called Yuuji his rival, I just meant within the context of this episode. In reality, everything is Kusaka’s rival. Every interaction is a way to win, and a way to parlay that victory into more victories. Kusaka’s worldview is like a more murderous version of One Red Paperclip. He’s always leveraging whatever situation he finds himself in.

There’s a lot in this episode of Kusaka taking in information and immediately formulating a way to take advantage of it. Discovering Yuuji’s identity as Horsepower means a wedge to keep him away from Mari. Finding out about Lucky Clover means amoral teammates who’ll help him achieve his goals. He’s like a shark, but he can’t stop scheming.

It’s fun to watch him win constantly in this, because it makes it so much sweeter when he loses in the end. Kusaka’s basically playing on easy mode when he manipulates Team Faiz, and Lucky Clover uses that overconfidence against him. Him getting his ass beat is immensely cathartic, even if the scope of the story being told in this episode renders his corporal punishment a little regrettable.

--3--

And that’s not easy to say, because not only is Kusaka plotting Yuuji’s death in this one, he hits rock bottom with Mari and Takumi. Whatever amount of sympathy Mari had for him evaporates as he gets full-on Creepshow and demands she let him possess her. If last episode was cringe comedy, Kusaka embarrassing himself, this one’s horror movie terror. Whatever is churning around inside Kusaka bubbles up and explodes, with him screaming to a just-in-time Takumi that he needs to be saved from himself, and only Mari can do that. That losing his mother at an early age broke something inside of him, a wound he can sense but can’t heal. It’s a shocking display of vulnerability, explaining actions and motivations that are deplorable, grotesque.

That whole scene, it’s interesting to me in the way it’s defining Kusaka’s psychology without excusing it. He’s awful, and he’s hurting so many people. The things he’s doing are objectively wrong. But, like everyone in Faiz, it comes from a trauma he hasn’t processed. He’s earned our animosity, but he might also deserve some of our pity.

--4--

The rest of the cast is finding their way through their own poor decisions, at least the few of them who have meaningful screentime in this episode. (Seriously, it’s almost all Kusaka, Yuuji, and Lucky Clover this episode. Takumi doesn’t show up until halfway through, Keitaro and Yuka are each in only one scene, Mari gets one or two more.) The Love Polygon of the last few episodes gets some emotional maturity applied to it, to differing degrees of success.

Mari tells Kusaka she won’t date him, and I love that the show framed her decision not so much in choosing Yuuji, but in just not choosing Kusaka. She’s focused on her dream of being a stylist, and she doesn’t like Kusaka romantically. Like, that’s it. That’s excellent. Even when Kusaka presses her on her feelings for Yuuji, she shuts him down, keeping the topic on her lack of feelings for Kusaka. It’s a mature way of closing that door on someone, and I love the agency it gives Mari.

Kaido, on the other hand, might be a lost cause. After learning about Mari’s lack of feelings for Kaido, Yuuji tells Kaido to leave her alone because she's not interested and Kaido refuses. It’s romantic comedy nonsense viewed with an intensely skeptical eye, reframing it as harassment. It’s an ugly look for Kaido, but there’s a flash on his face that says he might be aware of that now. One can hope!

--5--

I’m curious how this episode played for other people. I liked learning a bit more about Kusaka’s psychology, and I really enjoyed the journey he goes on in this one. There’s a fun swing from Kusaka Is The Greatest Nothing Can Stop Him to I’ve Made A Huge Mistake in about twenty minutes of TV show.

But y’know, it’s also asking you to at least slightly empathize with Kusaka when he is at (to date) Peak Kusaka, and that’s maybe too big an ask for folks predisposed to viewing Kusaka as a two-dimensional bully. I mean, he’s awful to Mari and Yuuji, two of the kindest people on the show. Hard to find something worth saving in a dude who’d be horrible to them! I mean, Takumi’s one thing, but not Yuuji!

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I brought up Kuroto and Kiriya for Doctor Mighty XX part where they're paired together. I mean for myself I've already written the reason I said no for Kuroto with Kiriya, or just with any other heroes he "sided" with. Which also applies to Takusaka here for me (prefering the harmonic one of Takkiba here compared to the conflict-based Takusaka, yay). I wonder if you get what I'm saying though there because probably that was some bad English.

I think about something like, you asking others why they like Kuuga at the end of the thread as if it's baffling. Also, the preference here, you know, led to the birth of overtop characters.... like Shunpei!

I'm sorry if I made the idea of people enjoying Kuuga sound hard to believe. It's more that I wasn't able to get out of it what other people did, and I wanted to hear what they enjoyed about it. It was curiosity, more than shock.

I mean, that's pretty much the whole reason I do threads like this, to find out what people are getting out of these shows. Some of it's me processing my own feelings, but I much prefer hearing what other people think about what's going on in a Kamen Rider series. Like, I'm already in my head all the time, I'm fascinated by what's in other people's heads. I'm glad people are comfortable sharing their opinions!

Actually, I was referring to how Dezumozorlya sired Rije using Asuka’s wife as an unwilling participant.

Underneath the guise of a hero and an efficient killer with the talent for manipulating people behind the scenes, Kusaka reveals to Takumi here that he's actually a very pathetic guy with some serious problems, trying to use Mari as a replacement for his mother. For that reason alone, calling him a villain, even at current peak Kusaka, just isn't apt. He's the worst kind of antihero, for sure. His concept of morality is terribly warped and he's always walking on that borderline between hero and villain, but his patheticness and desire to protect Mari and destroy "humanity's enemy" means he cannot be real villain, no matter how many terrible things he does to meet those ends.

He deserves whatever punishment he receives but I think the reason why he's so popular as a character isn't just about how terrible he is but why he's so terrible, how broken he is. His flaws make him relatable and, as you say, pitiable. Kusaka is the most infamous and hated Secondary Rider but he's not without redeeming qualities. The Secondary Rider of Gaim, a show full of depraved people, tried to commit genocide of the human race, that's way worse than anything Kusaka's done. Kusaka is ultimately a protector of humanity even if it's for all the wrong reasons and that's why, as much as I and many others hate him, there's something respectable about him.

Yuka's character development is great here and proves how much she cares about Kaido. She wants to be his girlfriend, of course, but more importantly, she wants him to be happy. She's still a little jealous of Mari, of course, but not spiteful at all, supporting Kaido/Mari since she believes that's the best way she can make him happy. Unfortunately, yeah, the ship isn't doing so good right now with Mari refusing to reciprocate any of Kaido's attempts.

Asuka sired Lije first so Dezumozorlya possessing her and making her age faster is more like the pseudo-filial relationship between Evolt and Ryuuga if we consider how Dezumozorlya was also trying to merge with his Another Earth half.

Yeah, I think this episode did a solid job of pivoting Kusaka from Total Asshole to Still A Total Asshole But Man This Guy Is In Rough Shape.

One of the things I found exciting about that whole Kusaka Breakdown scene is how quickly Takumi and Mari disengage themselves from Kusaka's toxicity. He's not in a space to really be around people right now, and they recognize that. There are people that you can try and save (Takumi, for example), and there are people you might just need to cut out of your life until they can get their shit together. It's nice to see the show have an awareness of which one Kusaka is right now.

For me, I still read it as Yuka eternally trying to be a peacemaker, to not burden anyone with her problems. The way she's crying at the beginning and, when Yuuji notices, she puts on a smile and tries to seem excited about Mari and Kaido getting together? Man, that is someone who's spent a lifetime valuing her feelings less than the feelings of others.