I think you might like Dragon Knight better than Ryuki. Since imo it has some more traditional Heisei Rider tropes baked into it. Plus the creators are huge tokusatsu fans. So if nothing else you can at least feel the respect the people behind the show have for the franchise. Since with Masked Rider it feels kind of haphazardly put together in regard with the usage of stock footage and the the very little money put into the actual shoe. Dragon Knight has tons of original footage and effects to tell the story it wants. So they get pick choose what they want from Ryuki and what they want to shoot instead.

Ah, gotcha, I see what you meant now. Thanks for clearing that up. And thank you!

I just finished rewatching Ryuki last week for the first time since I saw it around 2012. I defintely enjoyed it a lot more this time. Not sure why, but I could more clearly see what this show was trying to do. Maybe because I'm older, I could enjoy the characters of this show since they do skew older for Kamen Rider standards, or it could be the themes of justice which I can draw parallels to the current world. I still have issues with the show not explaining its setting very well and everything around Shiro, but I can look past that and enjoy the characters.

Regardless of how well the show was made or how it concluded though, it was a totally different league of its own at the time and I remember loving it solely for that. 13 kamen riders in one show was shocking enough(though excluding the TV special and movie we actually got 10, 12 if you include the two psuedo riders Alternative and Alternative Zero), they are gonna fight each other? At the time when the movie Battle Royale still had some residual hype going for it? It was sensory overload. :lolol

That definitely counts for something—I mean, that's why I read so much fanfic, after all. :p I'll certainly add this to my list for after I finish catching up with some of the Heisei shows I initially skipped over.

As an aside: I love your sig, btw.

Well, very late reply due to all the busy time I got... It just got over though, so let's do this if you don't mind. Still you're not wrong to have this reaction but want to convey my thoughts. I'm feeling bad over this, but I want to promote an extremely deep analysis of Ryuki, deeper than anything else I've read on Internet, the link's on my signature. I think they can catch anything people missed about Ryuki. They also had OOO as another complete deep analysis.

I don't think that it's dark for the sake of being dark. Ryuki had tons of morally ambiguous and outright morally black characters for sure, I think the setting guarantees that kind of cast due to the nature of battle royale. Kanzaki created the battle royale, and ironically that you think you sympathise with him, he's also the reason why the cast is mostly filled with terrible people. Kanzaki of course will choose deranged, rotten people to fight in his game so that they have little to no restraint to kill others. And of course deranged people won't listen to the likes of Shinji's pleas which is about keeping the bodycounts thin and the world around safe, either Riders or civilians, as they are selfish and sees caring for others as weakness, doing what they want to others won't benefit them, but of course none of them realized that they will never get their wish anyway, Kanzaki creates the game where the winner can be granted 1 wish, just so that he can win it himself with Odin as his representative, he needs other 12 Riders to grant the wish.

And actually he may fail at the first glance, but Shinji does eventually succeed in ending the war, y'know. His contribution hasn't been given enough credit. He may not affect every Rider, but the Riders do get slowly softened by Shinji's innocence and determination, the exact opposite of what Shiro wanted (this is brought up in example, Ren and Kitaoka's interaction), like what Switchblade pointed out. By that he manages to get the Riders to delay or even stop their fighting, preventing Shiro from completing the war before the war's deadline, the birthday (Shiro tried to support Ouja as the way to kill off Riders quickly though), as he needs every other Riders to die as the wish fodder, and him talking some sense to Kanzaki that his sister wants the war to end too, broke Shiro's obsession, that the war well, just caused all the suffering and despair, the "dark and edgy" & "dangerous" thing you hate here, which is probably the real point of the show that "war is hell", and thus the way to make up for it series-wise is to move on and make the war don't exist at all, which is resetting it, which is already established to be able to be done in ep. 28 or the other iterations where Kanzaki resets the war if it's not going his way.

It has a fate going on it, where by destiny Shinji will always become Ryuki, which is probably the point of the other iterations, for the answer who asks why Shiro didn't keep Shinji out of the war or kill him (13 Riders is that), but probably otherwise are just bonuses (13 Riders is really an abridged version of Ryuki, and many movies in Phase 1 also have it set in alternate timeline). He even remembers when Shiro rewinded the time at ep. 28. The analysis I gave do question it itself the reason why ORE Journal exists, where they're investigating things that the characters already knew, but to answer the question the analysis asked in their character analysis.

Well to each of your own, but I hope that you won't downplay or cut out his evilness, with you talking about the complexity. Of all the characters you talk about being rotten, Asakura is the worst of them, who is overall just a sadist psychopath who exists to harm and maim others. Also, probably the one that you refer as complex part, where it's the fire in his house and sympathy to his brother and about his interactions with a girl? It's all only done to make Asakura even more evil than he already is, giving the hook to the audience about his redeeming quality, only to fake it. The former being that Asakura is the one who started the fire that killed his parents and the latter is that he only used her as a bait for 3 pack monster to feed all his Contract Beasts at once, he didn't even flinch when Venosnaker (Ouja's snake) attacked her to get him. Probably to me he would be more complex, but not about morality, but about that he's someone who isn't completely insane because he's able to not fight to accomplish certain goals, and he has cunning mind to trick others or to free himself from captive. Kanzaki is already detailed above, he's the reason behind not only the war but also Ryuki getting that kind of cast, and he himself is a darker, evil counterpart of Ren.

Well this is double standard. You talk about Shinji struggling to convince other Riders to not fight, and they ignore him. Tezuka is also like that. While he may've gotten through Ren, he also got the same reaction from others like Shibaura, of him convinving other Riders not to fight. But Tezuka got praised for doing this while Shinji got mocked? (Tezuka may present calmer demeanor, but the result is just the same) And Zi-O part had them turning Tezuka into a psychopath who will kill others in his way by feeding them into Contract Monsters, something only Riders like Scissors and Ouja did in the original series and I hate that, with the excuse of him forgetting his memories? That takes away the said "true" Rider of the series? And I hate that, don't get me wrong.

Well, I had bigger and more open disdain to throw to adaptations. RT Ryuki veers close to the unrestrained Inoue usually more seen in the side media, with him doing things like turning Tezuka into murderous psychopath with the excuse of him forgetting his memories (and it's undone by him remembering that he's Shinji's friend, and I don't think that it solves the thing, why he was Shinji's friend again? Because both are the Riders that want to stop the war? He didn't express regret over those that he had killed here or what he had done? Only to Shinji as he's his friend. If that's to show that he's good all along, that can veer into protagonist centered morality to me, that it portrayed him as good merely because he helped Shinji), and some stuff that is seen on his side medias.

Also the ending, it's about the war finally being stopped. So Shinji accomplished his goals (yeah you said that he prevents it from being too dark and edgy, and I also want to give credit for what he does too, which is the ending). The ending shows about how terrible everything was as a result of the Rider War (every single Rider died, not to mention all those countless civilians). Yeah, every single character's story was wrapped up (all with their ironic deaths); Kitaoka got his date and succumbed to his illness, Goro served him one last time, Asakura was finally taken down by the cops, Kido died saving people like he'd always wanted to, and Ren achieved his goal albeit succumbs to his death. But...that also means everyone's dead and nobody gained anything. Probably the real point about Ryuki, and all of its darkness, was that there was no point, to war or any of the conflict. The point that war is bad, war only creates cycle of suffering and despair. But for this series, it has been established that, the war can be reset, in ep. 28 (and overall, Ryuki is a loop where Kanzaki resets the war if it's not going his way, and it always does because by destiny Shinji always becomes Rider and screws up his plan, by well, the reason you say about something being dragged on, Shinji drags out the war so Shiro fails to make it in time). So the tragedies in war can be fixed by doing the reset one last time, but instead to restart, it's to make everything that causes the war nonexistent instead (branched Mirror World, Rider Decks, Mirror Monsters, the bodycounts). This also does something like indirectly grants Ren's wish, which is Eri being safe.

Shinji's biggest dilemma is choosing between saving the civilians and Riders, and also denying the Rider's wishes if it's done which is stopping the war, so by that he actually knows about being wrong? Also, what benefits will be gain from the other's beliefs? They're all only self-serving, where Ren boasts about his cynicism to get only what he wants (killing to win the war, and he only prioritizing his loved one's wellbeing, which also gets him in a dilemma), Kitaoka is about hedonism; to only do anything that satisfies yourself, Shibaura is about treating life as a game, Tezuka is similar to Shinji's, about doing the right thing even if it won't benefit you otherwise (coming from Yuichi who wouldn't fight even if he can restore his fingers) and also run by fate, and that's the one which inspired Shinji's (and Tezuka's run of it has similar outcome to Shinji's) to try changing the Rider by person, Sano is the happiness is money belief and that people can be bought, etc. All of them except Tezuka's are moral flaws that can be slapped some lessons to it, like Kitaoka realizing that he doesn't need to live immortal as he already had enjoyable one (Shinji of course is still shaken too after finally learning his wish). His belief is reforged when challenged where at the end he finally chooses to end the war over the Rider's wishes.

His idiocy and naivete did cause a harm at first (Scissors part), but he does mature later, contrast when he finds it suspicious when Tiger works at . If you bring up the Imperer arc to argue for this, then, it's Inoue screwing up his writing at that part by ignoring his development there.

Not understanding what people see in Zolda? I mean many scumbags are fan favorites right? Also like you too in Yaguruma and Tsurugi on Kabuto. To people toxic characters are more entertaining characters because they're usually stylish, ballsy and confident. They do outlandish things normal people wouldn't think or dare. And/or that characters with negative qualities like that are personal and relates to those audiences. And/or that people tend to think that development is about reducing your negative traits to be a better person, which Zolda do have. And/or probably the variation of the things that can be done in morally grey characters, like caring and nurturing (to Goro), or banters (to Shinji/Ren), or apathy (to Sano), or dislike (to Megumi), or hatred (to Asakura). And/or the new type of comedy these people can provide, like making crude jokes without the fear of avoiding anything morally dubious. Overall those are viewed as multi-faceted and complex.

And then Ryuki has Takuya.

oh, this is marvellous! I think more than anything I am excited to see another Kamen Rider fan on Dreamwidth, so I instantly asked the author if I could add them, thank you so much for pointing me in the direction of this!

And thank you also for your lengthy reply!!

The difference here is I could feel Kanzaki's motive, and I felt sufficient time was spent exploring him. In fact, all of the characters who were villainous or morally ambiguous, save mayhaps for Crab-Man-Scissor-Hands, have a lot of focus in the story in regards to their motives. Yet for Shinji, from start to finish, I did not know what his deal was, he felt like a cardboard cut-out, a facsimile of anime ideals.

Hmm, I see what you are saying, but I feel as if Ren ended the war, and even then, not without the loss of many lives. If Shinji changed anything, he changed Ren's focus, made him believe that the world was bigger than just him, and that asking for a complete do-over would save both Eri and those who had also been drawn into the conflict.

Absolutely, absolutely. I agree totally, and yet "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven," right? I feel the story explores how far past the point of redemption Asakura is, and what makes him compelling is that even without all that, amidst all the misanthropy, he still saves a child's life. That's fascinating to me, that's good storytelling, because at the end of that episode, we're left wondering exactly what his deal is, and it's not that he has changed as a character, but we, the audience, have taken a step closer to understanding how someone can end up as Asakura is.

You make it sound so serious, DreadBringer, as I'm trying to smear the good name of Shinji in national media! :p All I'm trying to say is that I understood where Tezuka was coming from, the story explained his motive, and communicated his desires, whereas I did not have the same impression of Shinji. Not, of course, that the failing is entirely the piece of media, both I and the context I watched it in are also to blame, but also... my feelings haven't changed. Having had a while to ruminate on the series, I still can't say that I enjoyed it. I liked aspects of it, but still, it felt to me a significant reminder of much that I dislike of the Heisei era shows.

Likewise for the response in a good number of the parts here. Like to talk long about something to try getting it full.

I mean, the reason for the part of Shinji and Tezuka is because the first post talks about how Shinji convinces anyone and gets ignored as complaint, so I want to point out that Tezuka also received the same treatment. But if this is about Tezuka being given motive explanation then ok (I mean, "true" Kamen Rider depends on morality not how much story etc. though). Well yeah Shinji doesn't have backstory or something, but that's made as him being the Everyman character type (the more normal guy compared to fantasized ones, these types are often working or middle class and deal with everyday problems, may also be placed in extraordinary circumstances): Riders before and after Shinji had something to do with the forces that moved the story onward or had some tragic past that defined them, but Shinji was just a normal guy who accidentally stumbled into the Rider War. Because and despite the fact that he had nothing to lose or gain by entering, he gave his all to stop the fighting. This is also partially justified for Shinji's entire place in the war: A completely normal guy with no wish and no desire to fight somehow managed to find an Advent Deck and become a Kamen Rider. All the other Riders were picked specifically because they would have a reason to fight (and it has benefit on Shinji where he resisted Time Vent). This also extends to his powers where he's a jack in all stats; with balanced deck having two shields, a sword, and a projectile, and also reflected in Ryuki Survive: Drag-Visor Zwei is a gunblade that can be used as a sword or a marker for Meteor Bullet, and Strange Vent can copy cards.

Actually Ren only take his original wish of curing Eri, which is seen when Eri woke up. Seems that the wish is automatically granted when there's only 1 Rider left. Kanzaki is the one that ends the war directly, being the only one who is able to do so (and had done before to restart the war), at the behest of his sister who finally knows the war is meant to save her, by hearing directly from her (as he won't listen to anyone else, albeit Shinji reaffirms this too shortly after) that she doesn't want the new life that comes from countless bodycounts, due to Shinji dragging on the war to the birthday, forcing the secrets and lies (the truth about the war) to uncover, by supernatural means (body fading away). Shinji indirectly makes Kanzaki end the war though he didn't know, but it's still his doing and Ren also got better outcome at the end with the reset which is him and Eri just being safe and can live together.

Villains can do good things just to benefit them, I ought not to commend those acts. That's called pragmatic villainy. Talking about past the point of redemption like him baiting others to kill Akira, this part is a reharsh of that for Asakura, where he seems to save a child, but only to use her as a bait with him not having any real compassion to her (when Venosnaker attacks her), once again showing him as beyond redemption. Other example of pragmatic villainy is Masamune in Ex-Aid who presents himself as an amicable boss to Genm Corp's employers. This will also benefit his employees after they suffer under bosses like Kuroto and Lovelica, getting more comfortable atmosphere, but this is nothing good on Masamune, he just does that to benefit himself. Or in other media, Red Skull who doesn't appreciate anyone on his payroll doing similar sadistic villainy, due to villainy committed on his dime has to have some kind of profit for him, which also had him foiled Madam Hydra's plan.

Same here! It's good to have these lengthy discussions!

But we don't know the morality of the characters unless such is demonstrated through the text of the story. I feel my criteria for exactly who is a Kamen Rider is possibly a bit strict, and as much as I like characters from certain shows, I don't think I'd regard any of the Heisei Riders as Kamen Riders save for in title alone. But that's a digression. I guess the main point here is that I just don't like Shinji for much the same reason as I don't like Shoichi from Agito, I simply don't like this archetype.

I don't know if I'd agree with this. I think Shinji doesn't have a backstory because he's the protagonist of a kid's show, not because he's there for adults to relate to. I think this is actually the root of my problem, I'm asking the story to engage with me, an adult woman, when it's not meant for me. I mean, at the end of the day, all of my opinions are simply opinions, simply a case of me saying "Oh, this worked for me," or "Oh, this didn't work for me," and as such, they're irrelevant because it's 19 years too late for me to buy merchandise for the show, and I'm simply being a dork by subjecting the show to an analysis based on criteria it was never intended to meet.

Oh, I missed this! I'm happy to stand corrected, but I didn't get this impression. I mean, I don't mind if this is the case, but also wouldn't this have been pertinent information to inform participants before Kanzaki handed over the decks? :p

Oh, absolutely, but I think it's a simplification to believe that Asakura was only capable of evil, down that path lays determinism, and if you have a villain who is only capable of evil, then you also rob your story of any tension. What always fascinated me about the Showa villains was that it was clear they had chosen evil—like the fable of the Devil and the peacock—especially by the time we got to Black, that was a whole doctrine, an ideology that Gorgom were working under. I genuinely think that in this two-parter, Asakura chose to do something good, as well as to test his strength, to see how long it would taken for his contract beasts to eat him. Contrast him here with another Kobayashi character, Takayama Jin from Amazons, who is often lauded as a hero, yet fundamentally acts no different from Asakura.

(I can't really comment on your Ex-Aid or Captain America comparisons, I'm afraid, as I've never seen the former nor read an issue of the latter.)

Not to derail anything, but Jin is maybe my favorite series-long villain for a Kamen Rider show? It's this bizarre arc of him telling you, upfront, what his genocidal scheme is, and then literally the rest of the show is used to illuminate how unheroic it is.

Oh, I liked him too, and I didn't like Amazons as a series at all, but I liked Jin, I got where he was coming from. I worry that after confessing this, you're going to go away with like, "Oh, dreamcastegirl is only into sociopaths," but I promise I do like wholesome characters too, lol.

Although, having said that, the only other character I really liked in Amazons was Iyu, so maybe I am actually broken inside.