Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43356)

I used to look at the happy montage as the way their lives could've played out had the Rider Battle not happened. Now I really do see it as the reset. Once Kanzaki realized that Yui was happier having died in the fire I think this was his gift to the riders. Bringing them all back and giving them a second chance. I don't think Ren's victory or wish had anything to do with it. This was all on Kanzaki.

Originally Posted by Shin Densetsu (Post 43417)

I think Ren only won because Odin got confused and went haywire once Yui begged Shiro to stop. Up until that point, Odin had the upper hand and was winning against Ren, wearing him out.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43472)

So if someone were to establish a loose "timeline" of Ryuki, would it be:

13 Riders → Episode Final → TV Series

Yeah, Odin had that fight won but whatever Kanzaki was feeling affected the flow of the fight.

Regarding Shinji's character. Despite being for all intents and purposes a wuss for a vast majority of the series, Shinji never once lost track of what his mission was: To stop the Rider War and avert civilian deaths from the Mirror Monsters. Painfully naive, I think Shinji's story was in fact the most tragic of the Riders. His background is never fleshed out aside from his occupation of being an amateur journalist but I don't think they needed to because he was meant to be the everyman trying to do the right thing...only to have the right thing blow up in his face over and over again. From being used by the Room 401 crew to being mocked constantly by Ren and even forced to dress up as a French maid by Kitaoka...he had it pretty rough. But he never lost sight of his goal without going into a ridiculous monologue or explanation of why he is right. Shinji often gets dismissed as being the least interesting of the Ryuki characters despite being the title Rider but I think he complimented the others. He was the conscience of the show in the face of desperation and ambition.

Originally Posted by Dr Kain (Post 43501)

I don't count Episode Final or 13 Riders as canon. First off, 13 Riders did not have an ending, with either ending. You either get an ending with Shinji just standing there ready to battle or an ending with Shinji being taunted. Plus, the personalities of the characters were way too off. As for Episode Final, it does not fit no matter how you slice it. You either have to look at it as before Tiger, but that isn't possible, because Impaler would also not have been there. Or you have to look at it after Tiger, but again, impossible since Shinji knew the truth about Yui before Tiger died.

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43431)

Oh no I totally agree. But I don't think Ren got the better of Odin while he was off his game. Kanzaki decided that the battle was over so he 'turned off' Odin and let Ren win. But the happy ending montage is not a result of Ren's wish or his victory, it's just the result of Kanzaki never starting the Rider Battle.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43472)

So if someone were to establish a loose "timeline" of Ryuki, would it be:

13 Riders → Episode Final → TV Series

Yeah, Odin had that fight won but whatever Kanzaki was feeling affected the flow of the fight.

Regarding Shinji's character. Despite being for all intents and purposes a wuss for a vast majority of the series, Shinji never once lost track of what his mission was: To stop the Rider War and avert civilian deaths from the Mirror Monsters. Painfully naive, I think Shinji's story was in fact the most tragic of the Riders. His background is never fleshed out aside from his occupation of being an amateur journalist but I don't think they needed to because he was meant to be the everyman trying to do the right thing...only to have the right thing blow up in his face over and over again. From being used by the Room 401 crew to being mocked constantly by Ren and even forced to dress up as a French maid by Kitaoka...he had it pretty rough. But he never lost sight of his goal without going into a ridiculous monologue or explanation of why he is right. Shinji often gets dismissed as being the least interesting of the Ryuki characters despite being the title Rider but I think he complimented the others. He was the conscience of the show in the face of desperation and ambition.

Originally Posted by Dr Kain (Post 43501)

I don't count Episode Final or 13 Riders as canon. First off, 13 Riders did not have an ending, with either ending. You either get an ending with Shinji just standing there ready to battle or an ending with Shinji being taunted. Plus, the personalities of the characters were way too off. As for Episode Final, it does not fit no matter how you slice it. You either have to look at it as before Tiger, but that isn't possible, because Impaler would also not have been there. Or you have to look at it after Tiger, but again, impossible since Shinji knew the truth about Yui before Tiger died.

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43525)

Well yeah that's the point dude. They aren't cannon with the TV series in the sense that they fit with it. They are the previous realities attempted by Kanzaki. They're just failed attempts by him before the TV series plot. The characters aren't supposed to be the same because the reality isn't the same.

Originally Posted by Shin Densetsu (Post 43887)

Oh the result of Ren winning was Ogawa Eri recovering from coma, however it's implied that in doing so, it cost Ren his own life. The happy ending montage I figured was Kanzaki letting up and righting "time" so that Yui stayed dead as she wished, and the Rider War never started.

Dude we're pretty much saying the same things with different words/phrases lol.



Dude, well said about Shinji. His growth through the course of the show only reinforced my opinion that his experience in that series was supposed to parallel with the viewers'; while the rest of the cast knew the ways of the Mirror World, Shinji didn't, and we got to experience it just as he did. Shinji's innocence and idealism made his death even more tragic. As Akiyama even admitted, Shinji was the one that needed to survive, and because he didn't, it may have left Ren feeling that even if he was going to lose, he still had to fight the last fight with Odin, and never give up.



13 Riders had an ending that was voted for by viewers, the ending that won out was Shinji taking on the surviving riders as Kamen Rider Knight Survive, outcome unknown.

I think Episode Final was an ending aimed at fans who didn't want a "reset" ending like the TV series.



I see 13 Riders and Episode Final the same way some OVA's are compared to anime series; alternate retellings of the story with differences. For example the Escaflowne movie was very different from the TV series.

I got a question for you guys, with regards to winning and losing, Akiyama realized that it was hard for him to strike the last blow, whereas for Shinji, the same thing happened when he fought Akiyama to a stand still and had the upper hand. Do you think Shinji evolved into the better fighter?

Also I get confused, Shinji realized his wish towards the end after talking to Okubo, who reinforces his belief to do the right thing. At some point Shinji wants to seal the Mirror World, the same goal Kagawa was after(although Kagawa wanted to take out Yui in doing so). So...

What was Shinji's wish at the end of the series?

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43891)

Actually I think this quote may say it best:



Shinji lost protecting Yui, his only outlet for the battle. Without her he had nothing lef to protect or fight for. A betrayal of the only reason he exists as a rider. He couldn't see himself that way though. Even with no true reason to fight he knew he had to continue. He ratained a strong will until his death. He had nothing to give, no one to give anything too, but his will to fight was stronger than any reason the other riders may have had for battle. Maybe it was Shinjis' wish for the reset. Maybe he thought the others deserved that, maybe that's why he was willing to sacrifice his life. He did say once when he fought Odin that if Kamen Riders protect people that it was also possible for him as a Rider to protect other Riders.

1 billion forum points to anyone who knows who I quoted.