Let's not go down that rabbit hole. There's more than enough religious and fundamental overtones to this series to make a full theological study from it.

Just keep dancing, dancing, dancing, just keep dancing, dancing....... - Dory/Mai

Oh hey, and speaking of Mai, what do you suppose Blonde Mai has been up to?

Chillin' in a coffin.

Blonde Mai is Roshuo's wife?

What? This is news to me!?!

It's all speculation at this point :lol

Yeah, but we actually saw them die. All we saw with Takatora was him sinking in the water, which honestly looks even less fatal than his plunge off the cliff a couple months ago. There was no explosion and no obvious squishing into paste. No way he's not showing up again.

And it not like sid death

Wait, what's this bullshit of Takatora being a main rider? Transformed, he shows up less often than White Wizard.

Well, he was seriously injured and unconcious while sinking down, which are normally criteria that make you drown. Takatora is not a mermaid. Just saying.

Toei says he is a main rider. Blame them.

I don't wanna go down the "it doesn't have too many Riders!" argument again. I have my opinions, they have theirs. But I think Takatora is a good example of the Rider overload, as we're coming towards the final leg now and Takatora is still more important to the characters in his world than he is to the audience. And for me, that is a major problem.

I'll say this again. This is KAMEN RIDER. It doesn't matter if it's Gaim or not. Unless the character explodes, is squished, dies in someones arms, or evaporates into pixie dust; they're not dead.
Not only are the two who've died already not been part of the main four, but you can't deny that their deaths have been very blatant. That's how death has always been in Kamen Rider, we SEE the character die. This one was a little more vague and unsure. We only ever saw Takatora unconscious, not dead.

Yeah but there's like a million different ways where he could be saved or even resurface somewhere safe. Wasn't there a rumor that Oren would save him? And if not, Kouta's on his way there right now. Hell, he could just wake up and narrowly escape.

#1 rule of fiction: Unless you see a body OR you see the person die on-screen, it's likely that they're not actually dead.



I do have to agree with this. Of all of the confirmed deaths in the show, three of them EXPLODED, and one was crushed in between rocks.

With just how blatant the deaths are, it is a bit odd that Takatora would be the one to die off-screen, don't you think?

But being shown sinking to the bottom of the river isn't exactly off-screen, though.

I get that this is Kamen Rider, where characters don't die unless it's hardcore and blatant, but remember that this is being written by someone who knows how to kill off characters in ways that aren't always traditional in their genre. Even something as subtle as being mortally wounded and knocked sinking into the water isn't off the table as a possible death scenario.

Again: There aren't any photos of Takatora getting farewell flowers. That's usually the indicator that the character won't be returning.

Him not getting flowers just means that Kubota Yuki isnt done filming all his scenes. We know that Micchy will start having visions of his brother in front of him. We have yet to see what exactly that means but I´m pretty sure it will be Takatora being in the room with Micchy and both taliking to each other. This way Yuki would still be part of the show even when his character already died.

After Koyomi died in Wizard we didnt get pictures of the actress receiving flowers. She got them after she shot her last appearance in episode 52.

Most certainly is. If the death isn't on-screen, then it's an off-screen death. And it's improbable that Takatora was dead in that short amount of time that we saw him submerged.

Yeah, but even throughout Gaim alone, death has never been left ambiguous. All of the characters who were dead were so obviously dead. Of course, this could just be a subtle death, but when you send off Sid by crushing him in between a rock structure, or straight up making Hase explode, one can't help but feel suspicious when a guy gets submerged underwater and we don't see a body. On top of that, Takatora's actor hasn't received any flowers like the others did, and he was shown during the big battle at the beginning of the series. This guy is already known to have a knack for escaping death, so I don't believe he's dead until we get confirmation, through the series or otherwise.

Well we didn't have someone confirm wether he's dead or just unconcious, we only know that he was at least in the latter condition. That aside, as said before, Urobuchi doesn't have to go with the trope. He could, but he could also say: I'll do this differently.

So sinking into the water is not on-screen? Then was I just hallucinating about that scene? Yes, that scene could be interpreted in both ways (as you said there was a rumor about someone rescueing him, but then again... rumors don't necessarily come true), but I don't see how this is less on-screen than Hase or Sid. We've never seen a dead body of Hase and Sid- we even had the camera turn away when Sid was squished, so you could also go and say: Well, but he might have escaped...!
It might be not as possible as Takatora being resuced from the water, but it's an option you could think of. If we talk about off-screen death in water I'd totally agree about that in Blade, where we neither witnessed what exactly happened to Garren, not even how he actually fell into the water, so it was no problem that he came back, but imho, Takatora's scene looked bad enough to be interpreted as an on-screen death.

All of this, pretty much.

And this.

Just because the show didn't leave deaths ambiguous so far, it doesn't mean it always has to do so. It's actually a pretty good method to create suspense. Also, we don't even know if the prologue scene is actually the future, or the past, or a parallel universe or who knows what. Remember which groups are fighting which? At this point, why should Micchy join forces with Takatora? Or rather say, why would Takatora fight side by side with a brother that tried to kill him? And why would Kaito and Jonouchi fight Kouta? At the current point, this scene would not make a tiny bit of sense. Besides, Takatoras Sengoku Driver might be broken by now, so how is he supposed to transform into Zangetsu again? I don't think Ryoma will come around and repair it, after trying to kill his former friend a while ago.


Remember guys, we are ALL speculating here and just because there's certain tropes in Rider, it doesn't mean Urobuchi has to stick to those. But then again, he also could do so. We don't know. All we know is what the episode summaries tell us. Rumors don't count because yeah... they're rumors. Neither Oren rescuing Takatora nor Jinber Melon were ever confirmed.

The Oren fishing him out of the water rumor is pretty much disproven at this point. They were supposed to be part of some episode summaries. We got thos summaries a few days ago and there is no mention of such thing happening any time soon.

Not shown the way it was in the episode, it's not. An on-screen death is when someone dies on-screen. That has not happened yet with Takatora. It didn't happen with Sid either because the camera pans up, but unlike Sid's death, there is actually room for Takatora to have escaped it, albeit narrowly.

No, because the circumstances are quite different. Hase EXPLODES on camera, effectively destroying any chance of his survival outside of total asspulling, and Sid was crushed between rocks, with SEVERAL witnesses surrounding and the only reason the audience personally didn't see it is because it would've been too graphic for the kiddies. Not to mention that getting crushed in between rocks results in a more instant death than drowning, which at very least leaves room for survival. I mean, unless you can find non-farfetched scenarios where Sid survives. The only one I can think of is Sid miraculously falling in between the two spots on either side of the rock with a dent big enough to leave space for something human sized, and then Sid somehow finding his way out from there. Or they can pull a Naruto and find its and bits of pieces of him and try to repair him....somehow. I mean, you really have to stretch to make any chance of him surviving work. You don't have to do that for Takatora.



Fair enough. I don't think any of us know what the prologue actually is but it's in the show for a reason, I'd think it hold at least some merit, albeit a very small amount. Could just be symbolic of everything that's happened through the show too, so I'll give you that.

But again, I'm not saying that he definitely survived or that he's truly dead, I'm just saying, factoring everything in, I personally find more reason to think he's still alive than dead.

Since noone can prove if Takatora is alive or not this whole discussion is bound to keep going in circles when we keep at it :lol

Yeah, we should probably wait for next week's episode :lol

Nope- it's a preview for the World Cup Movie!

Nope that is this week. Next week is the continuation of the main story :lol

... I knew that. I think I hear my phone though. Bye.

One thing I didn't realize that I probably should have sooner...

Kaito asks Kouta if he'll kill Micchy if it gets to the point where he becomes such a soulless monster that he is incapable of being redeemed.


It alludes to when Kouta refused to kill Hase in Episode 14. Hase is basically foreshadowing for Micchy's descent, his literal transformation into an Inves symbolic of Micchy's figurative transformation into one. Hase did it all to regain back his power, exactly like Micchy is doing now. On top of that, he betrays a former partner to regain freedom and power, much like Micchy has been doing.

Hase's entire arc was like a plot summary for Micchy.

I wouldn't say it's a summary so much as foreshadowing. But there's one major difference between Mituzane and Hase. Hase was dead the moment he ate that fruit. There's nothing Kouta could have done to save him, at least not without risking other lives. Mituzane doesn't have to die. He can be depowered and locked up, or even talked down into being on the right side again. Heck, talking Micchy into being on humanity's side again would be the first smart and useful thing Mai has done all show.

Hase was inescapably doomed the before Kouta even knew he needed saving. Micchy can still be saved, even if it would be a very hard thing to do.

Well, yeah, not necessarily summary but it's a definite parallel.

I don't know about Micchy, either. He could start seeing reason again, or he could go completely desperate and become an Inves/Overlord himself, at which point somebody would need to put him down. Obviously, Micchy's still human and could theoretically be saved, but I could see him going the same way as Hase too.

I guess of all of the thing's going on in this show, the one thing I'm excited for is to see where they take Micchy.

Finally got around to watching this episode and what the ****?!!!!!!

I have to wait two weeks now for the next part because of another god damned piece of crap alternative crossover not canon story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, I would say this officially makes Takatora Nobunaga, but I doubt he is dead. He probably is just staying under the water to see if it will help Bicchy with his self esteem issues.

You know, this episode shows you really how tough Oren could be if he took his Rider abilities more seriously. Takatora was dominating Mitchy for the most part and he was use Zangetsu against Shin. If Oren didn't just coast on his soldier experience Bravo would be one hell of a fighter.

Small tangent aside, I really liked this episode. Kaito was injured by Redue and that is showing signs it might be a problem in the future. Speaking of problems down the road it looks like Kouta is starting to become an Overlord due to his Kiwami useage. As for the main event...well, I'm a bit disappointed with how it end but over all I liked the fight. I have a feeling Takatora might have survived that, but we'll see.

I really liked the brother duel and was happy to see Melon Arms getting used again. Good episode overall.