I'd argue that this is a problem Rider can have in general, but it really seemed to be at some of its worst in Ghost. It's difficult to remember any moments the ancillary Riders had towards the end of Gaim until the actual end, and I've always been a bit disappointed with how much Genm falls in line in Ex-Aid despite how much I enjoy him and how much crazier he gets. But at least in those cases you could argue there's either too many characters to focus on and they at least have a lot of personality to them, whereas Makoto and Alain are veeery much just "Ghost's Backup" towards the end. This is another part of why Alain's original character arc still sticks out as one of the best part of Ghost to me, and why Jiro in particular frustrates me a lot.

I'm also gonna buck a trend here slightly and say that I actually do not mind the Ganmaizer that much. Their robotic dispositions and complete lack of personality make for the perfect enemy to Takeru: faceless simple machines that are impossible to reach out to, yet are overwhelmingly powerful in the face of his spiritualism.
It's just that the way they were handled and focused on so much means you very very quickly get tired of them and wish things would move on a little. A good example is how the fact there's so many of them and that they keep reviving even after utter defeat is a GREAT setup for an idea of hopelessness and despair, but it just leaves you really tired and makes the focus "No progress is being made. Yawn." rather than the ideal "Oh dear god, nothing he's doing is making any progress!! How is he possibly going to win this hopeless situation?!"

That's a good point, how the absence of empathy from the Ganmeisers could be seen as an opposite to Takeru. I don't think that's a bad read.

It's just, first, I think Adel embodies those qualities better, and he gets more a resonant conclusion to that thematic struggle. Takeru's answer to "lacks empathy" for Adel was "more, deeper empathy". His solution to "lacks empathy" for the Ganmeisers was "Omega Drive to face". It, y'know, it lacks depth.

Second, you're absolutely right that the unstoppable, implacable, eternal Ganmeisers just came off as "Jesus, this AGAIN?!" That does not seem the optimal attitude an audience should take to an endstage adversary!

Finally, they just had the most weird, muddled story. Like, they're part of the Great Eye? But then they're robots? That Eadith built for some reason? But now they have emotions? Or maybe not? I never felt like I got a clear view of what they were, how they worked, and what they eventually wanted. With Adel, it felt more realized.

If only we'd got that second Ghost V-Cinema to explain the wondrous origins of the Ganmeizers and the Dark Necroms, instead of the Episode of Stinger. What a time it would have been to be alive.

Sure, a second Ghost V-Cinema could have been focused on Alain. Or maybe we avoided "RE:SEND: Kamen Rider Mailman", an hour-long exploration of the life of Yasushi Onodera. It's hard to say which outcome is the best.

Late to the party, but let's do it!

So, it's actually right that Kamen Rider cannot be all about Riders and monsters (as I think)! Despite obviously the "abnormal" things like Riders, monsters, or bizzare world being the interesting part of KRs. To me Tokusatsu isn’t about the suits or fighting, it’s about the people, the characters, the stories, instead of people fighting in silly colorful costumes, Which is the actual reason I follow KR, because for a toku mostly it has a proper plot.

Powers that barely get utilized isn't Ghost's exclusive problem. Actually, most of the KR series to me tbh (esp. Neo-Heisei with many powers and abilities). Mostly those powers would never be used fully (only like 20% perhaps). Like Fourze Cosmic States or Drive Type Tridoron for example.

Can you elaborate on those 2? Even if Ghost is my least favorite season, I'd think Akari is one of the better part of the show. I'd admit she's annoying af in the first part of the series tho, with how insane her denial to the surrounding is. It's like a denial atheist but with blatant evidence around you. Onari is still better than most of the other side characters IMO even if he doesn't contribute really much (one notable contribution of him is redeeming Javel).

I can certainly try! My brain is not going to be super-great at thinking Ghost thoughts, but, much like Takeru, I'm going to attempt to make this connection even if it kills me!

Yeah, the more Kamen Rider I watch, the more I feel drawn to the characters over the spectacle. (Which is not to say I dislike the spectacle. I love it when monsters explode! It's my favorite thing about most monsters.) At a point, the suits and monsters and explosions... it's not repetitive, exactly, but it's, like, the language of Kamen Rider, of tokusatsu. How you use that language to say something, to tell a story about people, that's what makes it unique and worth exploring.

To me, the flaw of the beginning of Ghost (and basically all of Wizard) is that the emphasis was so heavy on the Rider elements that it was tough see what they were trying to say about their hero. Without a day job or a hobby or some non-monster-exploding aspect to his character, Takeru didn't feel as fleshed out as, say, Shinnosuke or Emu. The best shows, or at least the ones that've worked best for me, explore more facets of their hero than just When Does He Henshin So Something Can Happen.

Plus, and Ghost was super guilty of this in the beginning, you need those other facets of a character to generate stories. If the only way a story starts is to have a monster attack, that's going to get old in a hurry. You need stories to generate internally as well as externally. Fourze was great at that, where you could have weird Zodiart stuff, but also just have one or two KRC members have a personal problem they need to solve. If a hero is solely reactive, never proactive, it's tough to keep coming up with fun stories to tell.

It's legit a flaw in Kamen Rider, sure. I think ever show I've watched has a form or two where it's like, the hero worked so hard to get that form and they haven't used it in a dozen episodes. (Agito, like, I don't know if that dude used his Sword Form for anything in the second half of the show. Did he get some new Henshin-Only Retrograde Amnesia?)

Specifically, with the beginning of Ghost, there was such a rush to get new EyeCons that, while a given power was crucial to defeating an episode's monster, it was just One More Collectible after that. It... it didn't feel additive to the story, if that makes sense. I didn't feel like it was an achievement that empowered the hero, so much as it felt like ticking something off a checklist. That's not how I want the character's power levels to work!

Weirdly, I think Ghost eventually did the best job of reincorporating the early EyeCons into something relevant to its protagonist. (The show did a lot of work in its later episodes to redeem some of the terrible, terrible choices of the first dozen episodes.) There's, if memory serves, a whole story devoted to Takeru telling the original EyeCons that they have value. That's a sweet idea, and it's a nice acknowledgement from the show that the incessant power creep of Kamen Rider can minimize accomplishments if left unchecked.


Me not liking them, it's all about how the first third-or-so of the show used them, which is to say to drive me insane with rage. Onari was only a fumbling, mugging idiot. Akari was only a stubborn skeptic. The show started to move them out of those roles as the series progressed, evolving them with new shading and some great character pairings. (The Javert stuff is, like, the thesis statement for Why Onari Doesn't Suck.) I feel like any defense of them as characters, any warm feelings folks have about them, that's all from the back-half of the show. At the start, though, Akari and Onari really don't work.

Thanks for letting me think and talk about this show! I hope I made any sense! My memories on this show are not, uh, crystal clear. Still, I do remember enjoying this show eventually, and I hope my criticisms of Ghost and its cast (Takeru, Onari, Akari, Ankh, Miu, and Accel) don't feel unwarranted. Thanks again!

I remember that someone gets mad over someone/something not related to Riders/monsters being one of the focus on the story in a KR series and had a passionate hatred for it, so I think normally people like it when a toku is even formulaic as long as it's all about Riders/monsters. But nah I can never be like that, instead formulaic toku doesn't interest me. I think it's unfair to hate the non-toku stuff/characters just because they are more mundane.


This is also part of the reason why I check the story/character in KR primarily, because many of the fights or form performance (fighting style, finisher, etc.) disappoints me. The many devices collected are actually to sell more things to kids tbh. But I also want for those powers to be used beautifully and maximized.


Probably the lesson here is that first part doesn't sum up anything. Especially that many journeys are about developments of people.

I think a lot of it is about balance. I love Kamen Rider for its colorful action AND what it's saying about the people involved in the colorful action. Showing me people living their lives, having non-monster problems, it gives context and scope and scale to the monster problems. When it's All Monster Problems All The Time, it can wear thin, feel boring. You need to spend some time with the people in the suits for the suits to feel special.

The fights and finishers, it's... this goes back to the need for balance, it's like punctuation when it's used correctly. If they've told their story well, with recognizable emotions and coherent themes, if they're saying something worth listening to, when they HENSHIN and brawl and detonate a monster, it feels like the exclamation mark on the sentence. When the villains get the upper hand, when the heroes get the floor wiped with their faces, that beating becomes an ellipsis, the story holding its breath or teasing out a pause.

For the collectibles, I got mad at Ghost for doing them badly, not for doing them at all. Like, I love that shit. I unironically love Gashats and Eyecons and Shift Cars and all of that. It's totally for kids, but, y'know, so is Kamen Rider? What keeps me coming back to Kamen Rider, what keeps me watching series and falling in love all over again, it's how it's a franchise designed to sell toys to children AND a vehicle for exploring the need for empathy, the horrors of war, the value of cooperation, and a limitless number of other themes. I wouldn't want a Kamen Rider show to sacrifice either one of those ingredients to add more of the other.

I mean, yes and no? There's value to sticking things out, to seeing them through. I can't quit even the most aggravating Kamen Rider shows, because I know there'll be something special at some point. (The Phoenix spotlight episodes of Wizard! I'll bring them up forever!) Being too quick to judge can keep you from discovering some really great art. Patience is a virtue, and all that.

But, like, I think it's fair to point out when a show is making it unnecessarily difficult on its viewers. I totally get why folks bailed on Ghost, and I can't say they made the wrong decision for their own happiness. If you're hating watching a show, it's okay to quit! You don't owe that show more than the time you've already given it. If the arc of a character starts Horrible and ends Great, it's hard to say that it's always worth the effort. I don't know. It's easy, I think, if you've seen the arc of a character to feel like it was time well-spent. It's a lot less easy to feel like you're on a good trajectory when you're having a bad time at the start.

Yes, I think it's safe to say that there will be no finale for you... mentioning those episodes! :p

They really are pretty great though.

Just like Ghost's first stretch, in my opinion, and we probably already talked about this a bit before, but, man, those first dozen episodes are real special to me.

It's like, I agree with basically all your points about what makes a Rider show better (the fights as punctuation thing! That's great!), and even that Ghost wasn't doing some of that early on.

But I just find so much to love in there anyway? The way the show drills into Takeru's insecurities, whether it's through the intense fights with Specter, or the scenes with him talking to Akari where the show knows to slow down a bit. The character growth, and the great payoffs like him getting the Beethoven Eyecon. The magic hugs! Those are so great! And with a single, very important exception, you can only get that from the first arc. I also don't know if part if this is the difference between watching the show weekly, and plowing through it in a month or two, but honestly I'd say Ghost did a good job giving the Eyecons significance right away. Multiple forms tended to be used in one fight scene, so none of them fell out of use, and narratively, the show effectively capitalized on their importance to enhance the story on occasion through beats like Specter just straight up jacking one of the hero's forms for several episodes, underlining his early status as the "better" Ghost. Actually, Makoto's development throughout the first arc in general is a huge high point for me. Such a payoff when he finally fights alongside Takeru.

I just don't know, man. I love Ghost, and the initial stretch is no exception. It might actually be my favorite overall chunk of it, even.

I just love so much how the show makes Rinko capable and heroic while also having her make a catastrophic miscalculation. That's such a fine line to walk, to have every choice she makes seem logical and reasonable while the audience knows that she's 100% wrong. And that cliffhanger! I don't think I was ever happier watching Wizard than at the end of Part 1 of that story. Hilarious! Terrifying! I could talk about it until the sun burns out.

Like, I think calling out Makoto's development in the first dozen episodes is maybe another way of pointing out what really didn't work for me in those first string of episodes: Makoto isn't the main character, Takeru is. If the secondary Rider has the most complex, exciting storyline at the beginning of your show, something went real wrong. There's totally a place for the non-title Riders to take the spotlight, and that's after the winter movie. I mean, the Alain arc! That's when you want to see more from the other Riders, because you've already shown the audience why they should care about the main Rider. With Ghost, I feel like they didn't really start making Takeru interesting until after they made Makoto interesting and as they were making Alain interesting. Takeru, for me in the beginning, felt like a secondary Rider who was inexplicably given more screen time than the primary Rider.

But, you know, it's art! People draw different things out of art, and it's fascinating to me how folks can enjoy stuff I don't and vice versa. I sincerely appreciate your ability to argue for what's worked for you in these shows. It's always contrary, but it's never just contrary, so it's fun to talk about.

That's why the first thing I mentioned was Takeru's development! He's so strong in that arc! Almost every one of those episodes is some major step forward (and occasionally backwards) for him, and what I loved most about Specter's initial rival phase was specifically how it reflects on Takeru. The character interactions in Ghost early on are tight, and the main cast build on each other excellently. As a mysterious adversary, Specter forces Takeru to get his s*** together when it comes to the hero thing, and as a long lost friend who's been suffering immensely, Makoto gives Takeru a chance to prove his dedication to helping people, even when they're shooting at him and stealing his stuff. Which is probably not very smart, and also so wonderfully, distinctly Takeru.

I'm speaking for myself here, obviously, but I've always felt Takeru had to take a real journey to get the point where he's willing to throw away his chance at getting his life back to save Kanon's. Maybe that comes off weak to some people because "well, obviously the hero is going to do that", but to me, it was always less about his moral capacity for that kind of thing (which he had from the start), and more about having the courage to go through with it (which he definitely did not), and that was constantly being challenged throughout the first dozen episodes in ways I found super interesting.

Makoto, I mean, I love the guy, but he's just another supporting character to help show why the real star is worth caring about. And speaking of Takeru's friends, I'm going to go ahead and mention while I've got the chance that, as for Akari only becoming defensible in the back half? One of her coolest moments came before the series even hit the double digit episodes:

https://i.imgur.com/kud5xv4.png

And that's just one of them!

Thank you so much! Honestly, arguing about Ghost with people on this forum probably taught me everything I know about expressing opinions in a respectful manner. :lol

Forged by the flames of having to explain why Takeru is a viable hero, incinerated by people's loathing of Yurusen, reborn from the ashes like some kind of... uh... I had something for this! Sorry. It'll come to me.

Anyway, I think this is going to be one of those agree-to-disagree situations. To me, the speed at which the show burned through plot points in the early going kept me from being able to get a sense of either Takeru's character or any growth thereof. It was a lot of Things Happening, but not a lot of Things Mattering. I feel like the show just assumed a connection between the audience and Takeru, so they skipped over a lot of helpful character building in favor of rocketing through Eyecons and showcasing his feud with Specter. All of the stuff about Makoto's desperation and dedication reflecting on Takeru, man, I'm just not sure I saw that, at least not in a way that made me connect with Takeru. Mostly in a way where I was like Makoto Is Making A Lot Good Points Re: Assaulting Takeru.

But where I can't disagree was Takeru choosing to sacrifice his resurrection for Kanon. That, yep, got it, understood why he'd make that choice, loved that show did it, loved how zen he was afterwards... but felt like they used up a lot of that good will with his dad just being like What If I Became A New Coat For You To Wear And Also I'm Bringing You Back To Life For A Few More Weeks Go Get Those Eyecons Again. But, like, that moment, when he decides to save Kanon, I can't imagine how someone could dislike that choice, or dislike Takeru for making it. Like, what franchise do they think they're watching?!

It's just, for me, all of the arc stuff that defines Takeru's character, that uses a supporting cast member and secondary Rider to codify and personalize his heroism, all of that is in the Alain/GanmaWorld arc. Everything you're saying about how one character's unwavering desire to save someone else reflects on Takeru, or how his heroism comes into a starker relief, like, he does all of that with Alain, and they both come out looking better for it! It's tough for me to fly the flag for the Makoto/Takeru arc as some character defining high-point, when the Alain/Takeru arc is sitting right there.

I will say, though, that Makoto's best stuff is in the first dozen episodes. Once Kanon gets to live outside his pocket (uh), it's like the show never had a great second act for him. He got a little lost in the shuffle, narratively.

It's so weird to be doing so much thinking about Ghost after all of these months. I'm digging it, though! It's nice remembering the good things PHOENIX LIKE A PHOENIX THAT'S WHAT I WAS GOING TO SAY.

Which is fair enough. I mean, just the fact that your example of a way Ghost could've done something better is also from Ghost is good enough for me. As someone who loves Ghost with the same kind of fervor as people who hate it, I'm still insanely appreciative of your ability to be critical of what you felt didn't work in it without denying the parts you felt did.

Nothing wrong to me too for more collectibles like Shift Cars (as a car enthusiast), Gaia Memory, Gashat, etc. What I dislike is doing them badly like underutilizing the diverse powersets provided by the collectibles (well, all the Rider powers are provided by the collectibles, so more collectibles = more power) which means just bring up that collectible to use once, then never use it again, especially for more advanced forms that has cool combinations like Fourze Cosmic States.

More like that for KR formula, the primary Rider should be the goody-two-shoes, the secondary one is more free and commonly filled with darker, grim, more anti-heroic character, even if the secondary is more interesting and fleshed out. Well, there are series that doesn't follow this like Kabuto or Faiz (Tendou and Takumi are jerks), but most do.

Aw, thanks. I'm not sure how anyone can look at a year's worth of content and declare it all bad. I feel like there's always some fun elements, some hidden gems, and it's worth calling those out even when you feel like the rest is making some dumb/bad/Shunpei choices.

Yeah, you're right, it's a problem with those shows that have dozens of collectibles. Like, I don't think Ex-Aid had a problem since (if I remember right) there were a smaller number of Gashats, and they tended to be grouped with specific characters. Ghost, yeah, it didn't feel to me like they brought back enough Eyecons in big, important ways, and Drive definitely had a similar problem with underutilizing Shift Cars. It seems like if a show can keep the number of in-show collectibles to under a dozen, it's a lot easier for them to all feel vital, instead of, like, pieces of gum that immediately lose their flavor.

I don't know, I'm okay with there being differences between the primary and secondary Riders (it's a necessity!), but I think it's cool when the shows play around with it. I think Fourze and W had fun with a serious, intense secondary Rider and a goofier primary Rider, and got some fun stuff out of the dichotomy.

The Makoto thing, it's just that, to me, his goal seemed more immediate and personal, while Takeru's seemed less so. I realize I'm suggesting that Takeru not wanting to disappear seemed impersonal and inconsequential, and a lot of that was down to how the show portrayed Takeru in those early episodes. With Makoto, I got what he was fighting for and I could see the lengths he'd go to. It wasn't that him being darker and tortured was inherently more interesting (not generally my type, when it comes to Riders), it was that there was a clarity to his actions and an energy to the performance that really popped in those early days.

Honestly, I think my favorite secondary Riders are the total weirdos and goofballs. Beast and Birth are two of my favorite Kamen Riders and they are thoroughly weird and incredibly genial. Like, Ex-Aid's awesome for having a group of secondary Riders whose wiki subcategory could just be A Group Of Assholes. They're variously guilt-ridden and vengeful, but it's mostly that they're pricks? I don't know. I find it hard to take Dark, Serious Riders seriously, so any show that wants to play around with that type gets me excited. It's maybe a testament to either how terrific the Makoto story was or how little I enjoyed the start of the Takeru story that Specter was my favorite thing about those episodes.