Fish Sandwich also watched Kamen Rider Saber Episode 16

https://i.imgur.com/WB0qufP.jpg

I only sort of realized it at the time, but if there was exactly one moment where I can say I truly fell in love with Kamen Rider Saber, when I knew it was going to be a show I'd pretty much never stop thinking about, that would stick with me forever, it was probably watching all the other Riders gang up on Saber this way. There's that part in there, where everything slows down and the sad music kicks in, as we see Touma's face and hear his thoughts, and he's just scared and confused and hurt by what's happening, as much emotionally as physically, and I found that kind of profound in a way I'm still not sure I can properly articulate.

But you know, I even tried again in the episode thread a few hours after already saying basically the same thing in my original post, so looking back, it's clear this really did leave an immediate lasting impact on me:

(Oh yeah, and I guess this episode also aired while we doing the Kabuto thread! Still a little spooky to me that Die has caught up to himself like this!)

But yeah, the gist of it is like I said at the time: I was shocked to be watching a Kamen Rider show where I felt this level of emotional significance to the heroes beating each other up, and putting how wrong Saber managed to make that feel in context of the show up until that point, it kind of locked in that I was never going to complain too hard about anything the first quarter had done to get here. For whatever flaws the storytelling in Saber had up to this point, they did an amazing job building to this twist in the narrative, and the moment itself was delivered in a way that exceeded any expectations I had about how well the show could pull it off. And I was on-board with this show from day one!

...All of that means I'm also extremely relieved to see it worked well enough for Die, too, naturally, because this episode means so much to me it'd just feel vulgar trying to argue about it? It's sad enough watching Touma fight his friends! I don't want to be adding onto that in real life! :p

(I still wish somebody would've translated Yuri's use of saikou as "brilliant", by the way, but this is actually about as good?)

IIRC people already do but still I hope here Reika's stunt here would get her actually viewed as villainous at worst by people, instead of being viewed as something empowering or competent like Yua at the start (before the reveal of her being at cohorts with ZAIA). And actually, Kamijo's words quickly had already displayed some truth here in at least Reika herself here.

For Rintaro, I mentioned his behavior to Kento in ep. 11, other than at the end, as his negative trait, and you didn't believe it for obvious reasons, but it was a buildup for his behavior here, of him having a blind loyalty towards Sword of Logos and his duty-bound approach would also mean he'd jump into blaming Touma over Sword of Logos mainstays. And for Ren (the one who is anti-heroic among the current Rider group), obviously he's a shit-stirrer and would have no qualms starting a fight with Touma especially over something Kento-related. I'd think Ogami and Daishinji's turn against Touma was something that happened too quick though, or at least, again for me, suffers in lack of what's shown during Hayato or Kamijo's time with them (if they'd emphasize the past betrayal moments as the reason), like what was them as a person like when they're together with those 2 and was them strikingly similar to Touma, or that they're just starting conflict for the sake of it. But this seems overlooked here as characters starting shit seems to be your type but I hope it's still acknowledged as just one's preference instead of the only way for writing good stories.

Mei here seems to have a different approach against Touma other than trying to shield him at the end, of which instead of just being pushy to get him to work, which is likely to be expected after what Yuki said about the manuscript's deadline, but now she asks about his concerns, and Sword of Logos-related. Like questioning if Kamijo is someone that can be trusted in his words, which, yeah, sometimes villains just can have a point, doesn't mean it liberates them from the wrongdoings in their actions, if there's someone that can come up with a less ruthless plan like Touma. Also similar to how in W Akiko later is more open to Shotaro's input instead of asserting her chief position (+slipper whack). This'd also actually shows how Mei got more integrated into Sword of Logos circle. Though Mei's still shallow in how she deems a guy as weird.

Yeah, here's the character who is seemingly the most loved by fanbase for Saber, Yuri. Other than his debut showing off his power to fend off all the 4 Riders at once, it also has funny factor in how he literally henshins into a sword and had it just flying to decimate all 4. His behavior is also no less of that to be ecstatic in meeting Touma instead and missing his stare.

You're mistaken here regarding anti-villain label. Extreme anti-villains are those who have very little or limited amount of bad traits/moments, edging them closer to outright hero antagonist (if they're antagonistic ofc). Reminder that the 'anti-' part of anti-villain refers to the redeeming qualities which makes them less bad and the more extreme they're the less bad they're.

I think that there are so many utterly depraved villains in fiction who are described/depicted as being outright insane (also creates the stereotype in how insane equals violent), like Banno in Drive, that insanity feels like one of the main roots behind their villainy, instead of a justification (also no for 'mental illness as excuse for poor behavior'). And it's true that Ohma Zi-O is deluded in thinking he became greatest kindest demon king, but that only serves to drive his villainy even worse by committing and escalating worse and worse actions without signs of stopping, opposite of acting as a redeeming trait.

To play along with him reforming, there can be a cases too where straight villains got redeemed, their atrocities before shouldn't be downplayed including as anti-villain. And as you said here, Gai is a narcissist, and like above, it's also a mental illness (personality disorder), and say no for 'mental illness as excuse for poor behavior'.

It's a tricky turn in the plot; I can see people having issues with it.

Yeah, I think the second half of this story escalated it nicely from Reika Is Turning These Friends Against into Wait These Guys See Their Roles Very Differently. Touma's a part-timer, and mostly on his own specific quest, while the SoL is an organization that existed before Calibur's turn and will exist after Touma's ouster.

That's tonight! And thanks!

The thing that worked the best for me in that whole battle was the Rintaro of it all. Guys like Ogami are very interested in deescalating the situation, and Ren's just pissed off, but Rintaro is furious at Touma's seeming disregard for everything Rintaro believes in. It's not frustration or sorrow at the tragedy of their friendship disintegrating, it's that Rintaro clearly misjudged Touma this badly, and now everyone has to suffer for it. I love how this show leverages Rintaro's best trait - his steadfast loyalty and sublimation into groups - and turns it into a bridge Touma can't cross. So smart.

I definitely don't think Ogami and Daishinji are stirring shit here. Ogami is the main voice of reason before the fight starts, and he's just trying to disarm Touma so things can get discussed safely. Ogami and Daishinji missed two of their friends going off the deep end and endangering others, and are not keen for a repeat.

Yeah, the start of this arc, it's not that I don't get it - Touma suddenly asking "Hey gang, I know Calibur was trying to cause the apocalypse and all, but maybe he had a point?" is going to get everyone's heckles up, from Ogami and Daishinji's more rational "Touma, put down your sword and lets talk this out", to Rintarou's "You would really accuse the SOL like this? HAVE YOU REALLY BETRAYED US?" to Ren's... I mean, Ren has probably been looking for an excuse to fight this new contender for the former-Kento's affections for 10 episodes now.

It just happens really, really fast? I get the argument all the speeches about everlasting teamwork from the last several episodes make this even more crushing when the fellowship does splinter in twain - if I were more unpleasantly cynical I'd say it's a scathing critique of Kamen Rider protagonist's tendencies to throw these out whenever - but the fact remains, this all goes down in about the same length of time they'd spend on a bike chase in Phase 1 Heisei. Plus, it always felt like a big leap to me Touma would just take Calibur's words at face value, especially when (minus one Ren), everyone he's met from the SOL has been genuinely decent? Maybe it's a worldbuildng thing, because even now, after having watched the entire show, I still have no idea how big or powerful this organisation is supposed to be. Covid restricions, I know. Maybe Touma had a dramatic confrontation with the person who restocks their magical library bookshelves and that's why he thinks the SOL is more shady that its letting on. It's not that I don't like the path the show wants to do - definitely more "traditional" Rider with a lone Touma and a bunch who distrust him - but how it got there is a little ungainly, and I think I let that colour my thoughts on this arc, which is kinda a shame.

But enough about that, cause here's Yuri! He's cool!

I think where this point worked for me is that there's that scene where Mei and Touma talk about Kamijo's warning, and sort of unpack all of the trickier parts of it as potential goal. There's them acknowledging that Calibur was a crazed killer, and he's solely responsible for the death of Kento... but also Kento was a guy that risked himself and others in pursuit of the truth, so maybe Kamijo's a guy that just took his desire for answers to the wrong place? And Kento was looking for the truth about what happened to his father, so investigating the SoL is honoring that deathbed promise.

Like, it's a story not so much about Touma turning against the SoL, as it is Touma not understanding how much of themselves his friends put into the organization. Also, even if Touma was uncertain about the veracity of Someone In The Sword Of Logos Is Up To No Good, four friends rolling up and telling him that Reika said he was a traitor is probably going to connect a couple dots for Touma.

One thing I read that made me laugh slightly is someone pointing out that while we get whole scenes of Ogami, Daishinji and Rintaro being misled by Reika, Ren doesn’t even get such a scene, implying that she didn’t even need to try with him.

Ren was just wandering by; he's not even sure what everyone else is mad about!

TTFC DIRECT THEATER: KAMEN RIDER SABER, ACT 1 - “SABER, LET YOUR HEART SHINE!”

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/saber/ttfc1a.png

I don’t… know what this is?

It’s some little twelve-minute bluescreen video, with Unreal Engine backdrops and one non-suit actor. (Smile! From Zero-One! Which is nice!) The whole thing’s like a one-act stage play, but filmed? I don’t know why? It’s very, uh, rough. It barely looks professional, even by the comparative standards of TTFC Special and Stage Play and COVID. I don’t understand why it’s like this? Or what it’s for?

As its own little Fight Scene Plus Moral special, it’s fine. A character we’ve never met before has a problem that’s only revealed when it becomes crucial information to conclude the plot, which is a thoroughly Saber way to tell this story. The stunts are stage show-esque, with a lot of tumbling and long takes, rather than the more robust and energetic camerawork we see on TV. It’s all very simple, is I guess what I want to say about it. It’s like the type of Saber story you’d put on the back of the box for the show-adjacent breakfast cereal. (Saber Flakes: “I’ll decide how this complete breakfast ends!”) It’s cute, at best. There’s virtually nothing to unpack or analyze, because it’s not really trying to tell a story with any depth. It’s a 12-minute stage show on the internet.

Nice to see Smile again, I guess!

—

WE’VE GOT YOUR BACK

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/saber/ttfc1b.png

Well, that was that.

Junki called off from work. He told his parents he wouldn’t be coming by for dinner tonight. He texted friends to let them know he might be unavailable for the foreseeable future. He let them all know that he was fine, but that he needed to keep cheering for Kamen Rider Saber.

It was only through the grace of the crimson swordsman that Junki was returned to the real world, instead of eternally imprisoned by an army of black-and-silver mute monsters. Junki knew he was delivered from evil, and he owed his life to Saber. When Saber commanded that Junki keep cheering, that was exactly what Junki intended to do.

Well, Junki wasn’t sure if “commanded” was the right word. While he was hopeful that Saber had saved him due to heroism, there was a fear that Saber would be a wrathful savior. Junki wasn’t certain what might happen if he stopped cheering for Saber: would the monsters return, and Saber might be unable to summon enough power to defeat them; or would Saber return, and angrily smite his subjects for failing him? Junki thought it best not to tempt fate, and decided the most rational course of action was to just keep cheering.

He’d never really cheered anyone on before, though, so he had to do some research. He’d tried yelling WE LOVE YOU SABER and LET’S GO SABER, but that wasn’t a long-term plan. For one, his voice was giving out after only a few hours of shouting, which meant he’d very quickly be physically unable to follow Saber’s instructions. For another, his neighbor’s shouted threat to break down Junki’s door and quiet him for good meant that, again, Saber would lose the required cheers. So that was a wash.

He tried prayer, but… that wasn’t really “cheering”, was it? That was asking Saber for help, and he certainly didn’t want to be a distraction or a nuisance. Saber wanted support, not a burden.

It was a Google search for “cheering on costumed people” that brought him success. It was for an idol group, but Junki figured the same advice would carry over for a superhero. Not only would he be able to cheer on Saber, but he’d be able to get his life back. He could see his parents. He could see his friends. He could sleep and eat and bathe, without worrying that the selfish minutes would bring doom upon him. He could even go back to work.

He’d have to go back to work, actually. The Google search gave him the helpful tip, but only a full-time job was going to keep him in Saber’s good graces. Junki added the items to his Amazon cart – DX swords, Figuarts, plush dolls, art prints, plastic statues, card sleeves, Blu-rays, CDs, rubber coasters – and hoped this was enough to cheer Saber on.

I know it can be rooted from the past betrayals, but O've mentioned my point of where my problem is that there's something lacking of what's shown during Hayato or Kamijo's time with them, when they're together with those 2 like how they were as a person (other than Kamijo in flashback displaying determination) and if they were strikingly similar to Touma or not, or that they're more like just another member of the Sword of Logos, or even worse..... something like Ren.

Ah yes the exitensial crisis of cheering Saber on. Cute little fun story in which I had no idea if you'd even do one because I only just now realized what this was a couple of hours ago.

Funny that I'm starting with the story this time because uh... I'll be entirely honest again, I forgot these things existed?

They're this weird sort of miniature stage show thing that I guess and I mean I'm really guessing with this theory, it was sort of meant to be a replacement for like... the actual stage shows that used to happen back before the pandemic started.

And I do not mean the Final Stages or Special Stages that exist that are performed on a large stage. I'm literally talking about the one's that would happen at theme parks, small outdoor stages and the like. If you look up correctly on Youtube you get a fun variety of stageshows, like Ghost teaming up with Blade and Chalice, Ghost, Wizard and Kiva teaming up, Build fighting the Build Bugster alongside the CR Riders, etc.

At least... I can only assume that's what this is supposed to be given this was made during uncertain Covid times, I think.