Was Emperor's debut really on this episode? Well... jeez, that's unfortunate, because it's the one that made me hate Jiro and the series as a whole. I guess that's why I've never loved the form until recently.

On a lighter note, a later movie did actually come up with an alternate solution to Emperor Form in order to have base Kiva be present in a bike scene without, y'know, killing the actor! ... it's just it looks really, really funny

https://i.imgur.com/xMpK6Mk.png

It's nice to have this directly confirmed by you, because this was the episode (even though I forgot it was also Emperor's debut as well) I immediately starting thinking of when I started to understand what your problems with the show were, and I was worried I might just be projecting my own issues with Kiva onto you or something. :lol

Again, to say the least, I wasn't a big fan of Jirou after this one either.

I think maybe you're being a little unfair on Tatsulot? It seems like the only reason you're complaining about him is due to the circumstances surrounding his debut. Personally, I think he's an adorable little addition to Kiva's team and he's one of Wataru's biggest fans. He's so excited for him to become Kiva Emperor for the first time and with such an awesome suit and insert theme, I can't blame him! Maybe he'll grow on you so that you will like him almost as much as you like Kivat (actually, you haven't talked much about Kivat, so I presume you like him?).

I also think this is the perfect timing for Emperor's debut. It's unconventionally early for a final form debut, but there's a minimalism to this particular one that makes it seem like it's holding back. This is cause it's one of the few final forms that become stronger throughout the show. I don't want to spoil anything for you, but if this wasn't enough to excite you, then don't worry, there are way more awesome opportunities to appreciate this bad*ss form! Even at its most basic, I like how the original Wake Up leg design moves to the chest and then his Riderkick takes the shape of fangs!

There are two scenes from other Inoue shows that this climactic scene reminds me of. The first is Jetman Episode 32, where the cool antihero tries to save his distressed love interest, who finally reciprocates. The second is Faiz Episode 22 where Kusaka confesses his love for Mari but Takumi tells him they'll never be together. I love both of those scenes, so naturally, I really love this one!

I'm not going to defend Jirou's yandere behavior and his abduction of Yuri. However, I will praise him for doing what Kusaka was too pathetic to do. When Yuri confessed her love for Otoya, Jirou conceded. The sad part is that while Jirou claimed he only wanted Yuri to make more Clawolves, I think his love for her was actually sincere, or else he wouldn't have bothered with sparing their lives.

Honestly, I'm surprised how little you've talked about this and the Wataru and Mio developments, since I think I disagree with most of what you said about this episode. It's one of my favorites and I recall it very fondly! You remember who the actual main characters are, right? :p

I was hoping you would give excellent praise to Supernova and you sure delivered, Fish!

I mentioned in the Den-O thread that it's in my top 5 KR insert themes, but thinking about that further, it's also my favorite final form theme and second only to Cyclone Effect. Seto is one of the best things to ever happen to a KR show.

I like how Supernova is used as metaphor for change. When a dying star is at its smallest and weakest, its most helpless, suddenly it becomes a powerful force stronger than anything it was before and that change has the power to affect everything around it and shape the events that revolve around it. That's why it's such a genius progression from Destiny's Play, which is all about the old Wataru's desire and courage to change. Supernova is the new Wataru, without his inhibitions, realizing all that potential he never knew he had. It may still be related to his moon motif as well, with the last lyrics:

"In the midst of this invisible darkness
As though creating a faint light"

Yeah, I think it's really cool how meta that is. It's Wataru and also Takaiwa breaking their chains, so they can both give everything they got to protect Mio!

You bet!

One of my favorite things about the Shinji/Ryoko story is that only Shinji thinks it's a tragedy. He's beating himself up about all the things he wasn't able to give Ryoko, and he's feeling like their time was squandered, but she doesn't feel that way at all. She spent her life with someone she loved, who loved her in return. It's only at the end of the story that Shinji realizes how good he had it.

God, I wish I had anything close to this reaction to the suit. Maybe it's just a problem with everything going on around it, how it feels like a fashion show put on in an ICU, but I don't think I like the look of Emperor Form too much?

I mean, thematically, sure. Wataru is significantly more confident and assertive in this episode (I love Megumi getting up and walking away from her mentor-y pep-talk with Mio because Wataru's already got it covered), and having him burst out of his Daddy Issues cocoon into something glorious and liberated? Yes, okay, got it, agreed.

Just aesthetically, though? Not a fan! (I haven't really seen it in much action, so maybe that'll change.) The gold isn't my favorite color-scheme, I don't really dig capes on my Riders, and it feels more like a secondary Rider to me than an upgrade for Kiva. I don't hate it or anything; like I said, it's just a slight downgrade for me from the base Kiva suit. But, yeah, did not feel too thrilled to see it in 24.

It's a bummer. Most of the second half of this episode doesn't land the emotional beats it thinks it does (Mio gets knocked out in the most basic A Bystander Is Thrown Aside way, something we've seen a dozen cast members shrug off, and the show treats it like she just got impaled), and the result is a bunch of heroic moments that all feel tainted and regrettable. I don't think the episode where Wataru's self-confidence grants him a bold new suit should feel tainted and/or regrettable!

One of my big concerns for 25 is How Do You Walk Jiro Back From This. Like, of the two conclusions to 24, Jiro is the monster who deserved to die, but they killed Shinji. Can't imagine the hoops the show is going to have to jump through to rehabilitate a Clawolve who attempted to murder Otoya and was 100% planning on forcing Yuri to bear his children.

Maybe! But I also sort of viscerally disliked Tatsulot's entrance? It's a little forced, where Tatsulot is here to put on a show and brighten the mood and be awesome, and it's all just trying way too hard. It's pushy, and I just didn't connect with that.

Still, maybe I just haven't given a chance to this unique character who gets biz-zay, consistently and thoroughly. Maybe I just haven't gotten used to its totally outrageous paradigm. Maybe if I could find a little room in my heart, we can laugh and cry until we grow old together. Maybe!

(And I like Kivat! He doesn't really ever get a story, so it's tough to feel like bringing him up. But I do like his weird energy and his stewardship of Wataru!)

Sorry to disappoint! Rest assured, if I'd spent more time on Wataru/Mio (it's cute, but there's not much to address beyond She Is A Fangire Probably And Wataru Doesn't Know It) or Otoya/Yuri/Jiro (Jiro is at his most supervillain-y here, in this story about the weight of relationships and how they don't need outside forces to make them complicated), you'd only find more reasons to disagree with me. I didn't think they were particularly insightful or dramatically interesting.

And, man, I would love for any of the main characters in this story to be treated with the care and intelligence Shinji and Ryoko were. That is my dream. But as long as they're subject to weird heel turns (Jiro) and ill-timed power upgrades (Wataru; fine for it showing up at this point in the series, not fine with it being in this episode), I'm probably going to connect more to the well-written, powerfully-acted, beautifully-shot love story.

Like everyone else, I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and feeling generally uncomfortable about it, but also... I think I realised that what I wanted and what the show tried to do with the character from here on in were maybe at odds from day one, and this was simply the apotheosis of that. In many ways, The Matter of Jiro has always felt like a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it; he's a cool, bad boy alpha male who doesn't play by the rules, what an engaging hero / he's a monstrous, predatory force of nature with little concern for the mores of human concepts of morality and/or social interaction, get out of his way. I would never wish to advocate for the latter in real life, but I absolutely do feel that it makes for a better story.

It interests me that there is apparently this beef between Kobayashi and Inoue, as, to me, Takayama from Amazons—who I am clearly an advocate of—feels to me to be another kind of Jiro in that they both seem representative of a certain masculine aggression that their shows struggle to frame within the context of "exciting superhero adventure show" whilst still maintaining the animalistic violence at the heart of their characters. In both cases, I think it is sad that the shows back down on the latter in order to accommodate the former, not because I want to watch dreary misogynistic misery for 42 episodes or whatever, but because I think there is a story that you can tell there about such people that does not make the concessions that both Amazons and Kiva do and yet still deals with these themes without delving into grotesquery.

I think this is what I like about the portrayal of Kusaka, you know? I don't like Kusaka at all, I think he's awful—and I think his presence absolutely raises the quality of what 555 is as a work. I also feel that the horror of Jiro's actions, the inhumanity of Jiro's actions, could have done the same for Kiva... but didn't, because Kiva always seemed to strive to find some middle ground between two depictions of a character that could not be reconciled, whereas 555 was more comfortable with presenting the ambiguity of a character of this caliber.

I don't quite know if I am making myself clear; how do I explain that I yearned for Jiro to be more monstrous, more inhuman, without sounding like I glory in nihilistic brutality? I'm not sure I have the right words. Perhaps it is the characters that I dislike, the characters who represent the opposite of my beliefs and feelings in real life that I am most interested in seeing depicted? Perhaps this is just a dreamcastegirl thing.

Gosh, whenever I speak up in this thread, I sound really broken. I promise I am normal in real life!

I think the current problems with Jiro (obviously can't speak to a Redemption Arc or whatever the hell the next 24 episodes look like for that character) are:

1) A CHARISMATIC MONSTER IS A GODDAMN TIGHTROPE

The idea of the seductiveness of evil is hugely compelling, and it always has been. A villain with a point of view is great; a villain with a point of view who can win you over is even better. Of course a show is going to want to toy with that approach, and of course a show is going to want to write towards a performer that is as good as Jiro's actor.

The problem is that you're left with an impossible set of potential resolutions to that story. You can either show the tragic consequences of the character's worldview/goals (The Takayama Approach), and give a brutal end to a popular character; or you can try and salvage the viewers' affection by reforming the villain, asking the audience to consider the villain's misguided feelings while they were doing reprehensible things (The Alain Approach).

Both of those choices sort of suck? Rider shows usually go with the second one, and it means making your peace with, like, assault and kidnapping and gaslighting and a non-zero amount of attempted genocide. It's a lot of mental gymnastics, and it's sort of inherent to the medium.

2) MAYBE HE SHOULD BE LESS OF A FULL-TIME KILLER

The trouble with Jiro is that he's been very upfront about his evil behaviors (he definitely murdered and ate innocent people!), but the show continues to treat him like a misbehaving puppy. It's one thing for Otoya to write off frequent ambushes as, like, Boys Being Boys, but it's another for the show to try and forget that Jiro has eaten innocent people and hid the evidence.

3) HIS EVILNESS HAS A MUNDANE QUALITY, AND THAT'S WAY WORSE

It's pretty much the thing that made Kusaka incredibly difficult to stomach in Faiz: it's all about emotionally isolating and physically controlling a woman. It's a kind of real-world evil that lacks the heightened details to make it forgivable. (Arguably, Faiz wasn't really interested in forgiving Kusaka, which was key.) It's a question of scale, you know? Jiro blowing up a city block (or whatever) isn't anything I can relate to or connect with emotionally. It's TV violence, and TV stakes. But Jiro threatening Yuri's safety and autonomy is sickening in a realistic way, despite transformations and musical cues. There's not enough dramatic distance to create space for me to feel like I need to give this guy the benefit of the doubt.

4) EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE YURI/OTOYA/JIRO PLOT

I think this thing just mostly doesn't work, narratively. Even when Yuri declares her love for Otoya, a character I've largely come around on, I was like... Why? Why would she love a womanizing buffoon? Why would a controlling pile of machismo in a silk shirt ever feel like a compelling alternative? Nothing in this three-way dance ever felt like it was coming from an understandable place, so there's even less incentive to explain away Jiro's sizable flaws.

Absolutely agree, although I do feel that Yuri's... reaction to the oncoming train-wreck of the concrete evidence of the status quo in the 2008 setting vs what the 1986 setting has been flirting with is actually really compelling as a narrative—an unpleasant one for sure, but also something that I found really moving. This story about attempts at forgiveness where forgiveness is impossible is where I found Kiva to be at its best, and maybe a lot of that is me sitting on my own personal baggage as I watched the show unfold, whilst the original creators were all perhaps like, "Don't think about it Character A loves Character B now. What? A mass murderer, you say? Don't worry about that."

I don't want to touch on this subject, to be honest. I think I can, however, empathise to a degree with loving someone who is cruel. Not grand guignol cruel, but nonetheless cruel.

But yes, the show does a poor job of reconciling Jiro's nature with the role it wants him to play later on and it suffers for it. You said all this far better than I did so I won't try and rephrase all your points.

Gosh. I am inarticulate today.

I don't blame you for feeling like you're not expressing your thoughts on intensely emotional content well. I remember having a tough time in Faiz, where it was difficult to explain why Kusaka slapping Mari was way more unforgivable than his frequent schemes to murder Takumi. It's hard to talk about things like vulnerability, and trust, and informed consent instead of, like, collectibles and finishing moves. It's one of the reasons why I'm a little less Let's See Where This Goes when Inoue starts dealing with those themes, because it requires a level of delicateness that I just basically don't think a show designed to sell toys to Japanese children is equipped to handle.

Like... you can hit those themes in a metaphorical way, absolutely. The best shows have! But approaching them literally is... I would maybe not crawl out on that limb if I was writing a tokusatsu show.

For me, and I don't wanna get into it too much (because it's an uncomfortable subject that concerns a show I'm really not crazy about otherwise), it's

A) "Forcing a woman to have your kids", is... it's not a subject I really want to see? I'm happy to see a show go dark places, and I'm very much for artistic freedom in being able to portray a lot of those dark places rather than hiding from them; but there's also the onus of responsibility on the artist to actually treat those important subjects with the maturity and respect and weight they're due? And... this is barely treated as anything more heinous than Jiro's other acts and doesn't portray him any worse. It's not something I personally want to see anyway, but I would at least want it done well.

B) Perhaps more pertinently, even if you had portrayed it extremely well; is this seriously something that needs to be in your children's show about selling toys? Remembering this was the Emperor debut really puts this into perspective to me when it's contrasted with the introduction of Tatsulot and everything he is. Something I like about Kamen Rider is that it isn't afraid to challenge interesting subjects, and oftentimes doesn't patronise its audience of children and respects their intelligence to the point where they feel they can think about some of this stuff; but there's certain things where I think there's a limit, and this is a big one.

Agreed! It's a weird irony to this story, where the relatable intimacy of the Shinji/Ryoko plot is what gives it so much beauty and power, while the Jiro plot needed to go way way way bigger and more unrealistic (like sticking Yuri in a machine to resurrect the Clawolves or whatever) in order to dodge its many, many pitfalls. There's a time for realism, and a time for metaphor, and this story just couldn't figure out which was which.