But it would be exaggerated because he's talking TO Takeru in the scene in question. It'd make sense he'd word it in the worst way possible to really get across how pissed he is at him. It's not like he went around saying that to everyone. And it's not even that inconsistent because...

...It wasn't nice! His sister lost her body and barely anyone even acknowledged their existence for the longest time. Just because he wasn't in constant suffering doesn't mean it didn't suck. The sky is blood red over there, for god's sake.

It pays for it because Takeru did exactly the thing Makoto wanted when he could've just as easily saved himself. This wasn't some minor thing either. He basically gave up his own life so Kanon could have hers back. I don't see how it only being "once" is relevant. Kanon being stuck as an Eyecon was the crux of his anger in the first place too so it makes sense he'd chill out after that stops being an issue.

I'm not complaining because he's acting like a person. I'm complaining because the show had him do something completely selfish for forced comedy during the tail end of the show, and this is almost directly following a speech where everyone talks about how hard they're working to bring Takeru back to life, including Onari. Then he goes and does something that directly hinders that goal where even the most useless character on the cast (Kanon) at least stays out of the way so as to not impede their progress.

And then when all is said and done, Akari throws out some half-assed line about how Takeru "needs him" even though he continues to do nothing of importance throughout the rest of the show. It's fine for a character to feel useless, but unlike Akari, who gets visibly frustrated and desperately seeks out solutions to problems when she feels useless, Onari just continues to chew up the scenery and generally annoy everybody.

The problem is Makoto does not stand out as a character in the slightest. He's basically just another person there to fawn over Takeru. It would have been interesting if they maybe kept the self-guilt part of his character as a recurring thing throughout the show, but it's only ever mentioned like twice. I would have liked to see Makoto maybe keep a reluctant ally thing going on with Takeru, where he's still pissed about nobody bothering to look for him in the Ganma World, and then Takeru sacrifices himself for Makoto somewhere down the road, showing to him the legitimacy of their friendship. It'd give a little bit more depth to Makoto.

But this is still inconsistent with Makoto's character. Sure, he had his rage moments, but he isn't a drama queen. What he felt was legitimate since it sparked his anger and to him, it probably DID feel like Hell.


I'm not buying this whole "He only phrased it that way to emphasize how pissed he is at Takeru" thing because surely some part of it MUST have been how he described it, otherwise it makes him look borderline emotionally manipulative, exaggerating his feelings to make someone else feel like shit. And somehow, I don't think that's what the writers intended.

Complaining about him being selfish is exactly what I meant by complaining about him acting like a person, and I just explained there's more to it that just (I can only be so delusional, that IS clearly a big part of it) "oh look, Onari's doing something wacky again."

Her followup to that being because "we're a team". She's not telling him he's super useful (because he isn't), she's saying they care about him regardless.


They don't need to mention it because it drives most of his actions anyway. That guilt is exactly why he's such a generic sidekick character in the first place. Makoto has played far too big a role in the plot to be considered just another person fawning over Takeru. He's THE person fawning over Takeru. And Alain, for that matter.

I didn't say "only", that's just part of it. A small part, even.

Trust me, he was kind of a drama queen in those episodes. Takeru and Kanon even mention how it feels like he's "forcing himself" to act how he does. He's really not himself when we first meet him.

Right, and I'm sorry if I didn't word that clearly enough. He's exaggerating, but only so much. This is why I mentioned how much being in the Ganma world DID suck for him. It's absolutely not "completely inconsistent" that he would describe it as hell.

Except Onari's never shown himself to be selfish before. Utterly and irredeemably annoying? Sure. But in the earlier episodes he at least tried to be semi-useful. Then all of a sudden he does something that's crazy selfish that the other characters just totally brush off.

And there's other ways to get across Onari's feelings of inadequacy without having him act like a prick. Akari went through pretty much the same sort of feelings without being a detriment to the group. So did Mach in Drive, and even Alain for a brief period of time.

She still told him that Takeru "needs him" even though it's clear as day to the audience that no, he really doesn't. He's "moral support", which is basically the same as saying "You serve no practical function on this team but at least you can be a victory cigar or something".

Just because it's his reason for being a generic sidekick character doesn't mean that he's not a generic sidekick character anymore, and being generic is generally a bad thing.

Really now, it sounds like you're making excuses for why things are bad in this show. Him being a generic sidekick character because of his guilt doesn't make him any more interesting of a character and that's precisely what the problem is.

But there's still no evidence to support your argument. Nothing in the show suggests that the Ganma World wasn't totally a living Hell from him, other than the fact that we see it later and it's not so bad. Normally, I could accept this as solid evidence, but the show doesn't even acknowledge the huge discrepancy between what Makoto said and what the world is actually like, which leads me to believe that it's a case of writers having the characters say and do things and just totally forgetting about it once the plot goes in a different direction, which seems to be an overall trend for Ghost.

Could you please explain what you want a pair of seven/eight-year-old children to do? They didn't even know what happened, and we don't know how Ryu explained it, either. For all we know, he could have died the next day or something.

Well I'm certainly in over my head with this one. I think I even said last week I wouldn't be that defensive of Onari or Makoto too...

But he's always had a certain level of arrogance, and constantly overestimates his own helpfulness, like picking a fight with the Knife Ganma. I need to stress I'm not trying to say Onari is some great character, just that his crappy characterization is consistent.

Fair enough.

Wait, now I'm confused, what the f*** are we even arguing about here anymore?

Are you saying nothing in episodes 1-11 suggests the Ganma World wasn't actually hell for him? Because the point I was trying to get at (really poorly) is that Makoto's description is just his perspective. He'd describe it as hell because to him, it was. There's no discrepancy. I wasn't trying to say he was manipulating Takeru or anything. The writers didn't just make up what the Ganma world is like later on. Everything you see in that first arc is consistent with what you see later. Makoto's relationship with Alain, all of Javert's dialogue, Makoto even having a Ghost Driver; Yurusen mentions early on the reason Gramps doesn't show up half the time is because he's "busy", wonder what that could mean?

Can I also reiterate this bit? I don't even think Makoto's problem was that they "left him there" but instead that he gets back and nobody seems to remember him and Kanon.

I loved so much about this episode it was great. First of all I have to mention that Onari, Akari, and Kanon all kicking ass against the grunts was great I'm glad they were able to do that. Also that their training paid off finally. The Dual Spectre's I loved because that the Makoto Replica also connected with Takeru and realized he was basically everything Makoto was and helped Makoto come back. Makoto's sacrifice was great because that just shows how much he has grown and how much he cares about his friends. Takeru is just freaking brilliant from beating the crap out of Adel because he hurt Alain to being able to calm down and save Adel. He finally connected Adel to his family's feelings and was able to save him. Takeru was able to get past his own feelings for his father's killer and save him because he's one of his friend's brother; I think that is just a testament to how strong Takeru has grown. Alain also going from trying to stop Adel no matter the cost to realizing he wanted to save his brother was great too. I even loved Igor's moment of saving Akari that was great as well showing that even he had his own feelings and not wanting to be a slave. I honestly felt really sad with what happened to Adel being taken over by the Ganmaizers and it ended up with him being destroyed because he could have finally had a chance of redemption. The Ganmaizers taking control was intriguing and actually makes it more interesting that they have had there own plans in the works here without Adel. Also, all the Luminaries coming out and beating the Ganmaizers and allowing Takeru to reach Adel was just a badass scene. I can't wait for the next episode that looks like a huge battle.

The problem with Onari is that he only has one consistent motivation in the series: do stuff that the writers think is funny. Why does he randomly start pretending to talk to the Goemon Eyecon? Because the writers think it's funny. Why does he randomly start drawing on Alain's face when he's asleep? Because of a long-standing rivalry or some kind of resentment? No, because the writers think it's funny. Why did he randomly endanger everything by stealing Alain's body? It wasn't because he was feeling left out, it's because the writers thought it would be funny to see Alain's actor mugging and gurning like Onari. There is no deeper motivation behind anything he does other than to be cheap, brainless comic relief.