That also reminds me of the debate of what is anime, and what is not anime despite being made in Japan. Anybody watch Kenny Lauderdale's YT channel, he did something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sboxyNkQZJg

And let's not forget Mike Toole's 2011 article on Anime... Or Not?!

If we go by the literal definition of tokusatsu, "live-action filming with heavy use of special effects," that would also include a huge amount of western fantasy, scifi and superhero movies and shows.

I think my unpopular opinion about what is and isn't toku is that there's no clear dividing line. There's some things that clearly are and some things that clearly aren't, but there's a whole bunch of stuff that's in a gray area. I expect most of us have a clear idea of what shows we're thinking of when we say "toku," but any set of rigid rules to define what is or isn't toku will end up either including things that we wouldn't consider toku, or excluding things that we would.
Maybe instead of asking "is this toku or not?" the real question is "how much is this toku?"

Also, I just think this is funny, I did the reverse of you two and branched out from toku into wuxia. Kamen Rider fed my interest in practical effects, and that led me to Thunderbolt Fantasy!

When people refer to Toku or Anime it's generally in a colloquial sense without a lot of hard rules -- it usually comes down to stylistic trappings, or to specific genres, or hell in the case of Toku usually just a few franchises and some other series which share things in common with it. Toku essentially means whatever the majority thinks it means

I mean... That's generally how language works if it's not a hard scientific term, given its everchanging.

So would you consider this as toku:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNsIGlXACew

What about this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw-WcEkOCUM

Or what about Zu Warriors from the Magic Mountain, does this count as toku:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ku3kF6xZdeQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XB4zH3C5-I

I mean the special effect from a 1983 film looks just like something I see in Kamen Rider, and Super Sentai. Or what about this sci-fi K-drama:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_YpLyPKaGs

And here's another K-drama, Sweet Home, which used a lot of special effect and CG where it borderline to tokusatsu territory:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rI56NmD33Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkS6i7oUpD8

Here's the behind the scene video that explained how Sweet Home's special effect was done:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jr8b1JTRKM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNpqOHpZD9I

Wow South Korea is totally outdoing special effect compared to what I've seen in Japanese tokusatsu shows. So yes, that's what I mean by several K-dramas are borderlining to tokusatsu. It makes me baffle why these sci-fi/fantasy K-dramas and wuxia C-dramas are never brought up in discussion in tokusatsu fandom community circle when it comes to what define tokusatsu.

Congrats on watching Thunderbolt Fantasy, are you planning to watch Pili Fantasy: War of Dragons on Netflix anytime soon Fairyking? The Taiwanese company that did Thunderbolt Fantasy also did Pili Fantasy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8fhuB0WCB4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq4gkf5fKHA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q8ZXo-rzhQ

Interestingly, on Netflix under Pili Fantasy, here are the list of recommended C-dramas (wuxia mostly) if a person was watching Pili Fantasy:

https://i.ibb.co/rwmqMz6/Pili-drama-Netflix-2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/3mFSzL7/Pili-drama-Netflix-3.jpg

Would be interesting to see how many toku fans that watched Thunderbolt Fantasy, and Pili Fantasy end up watching something like Ice Fantasy, The Devil Punisher, Word of Honor, and Once upon a time in Lingjian Mountain.

So would be very interesting if my unpopular opinion about wuxia C-drama and sci-fi/fantasy K-drama should be given tokusatsu classification would turned up in the near future.

Anyway, back on topic.

I find Shinkenger to be very overrated and not that great of a series.

What are you talking about? My observation and my unpopular opinion about fantasy/sci-fi K-drama and wuxia C-dramas not being talked about in tokusatsu circle is a unpopular opinion because I've never seen K-drama and wuxia fan made any attempt to reach out to tokusatsu fans. And I've never seen any toku fans reaching out to K-drama and C-drama (including wuxia) fandom.

Hence why I brought that up, it wasn't off topic it was a legitimate unpopular opinion and a observation in the tokusatsu community that I took notice of.

You know, as much as I appreciate the whole legacy aspect of Tsuburaya shows.

I am kind of getting a bit tired of seeing the same rotating cycle of monster suits again and again in the Ultra Series with fewer original and new Kaiju's showing up. Like I think Ultraman Z had... three super, brand new suits that weren't retools of existing monsters?

I'll piggyback off that Ultraman opinion for a moment.

I think Ultraman designs are way too samey and the toys also feel that way.

I'm gonna agree that ultraman definitely needs some new monster designs. On the other hand I actually quite like the dx toy design for the shows.

I don't know, they feel too sterile for me. A few of that kind can be neat, but if all of them are, they just get boring. They honestly feel like afterthoughts which just feels off compared to Rider and Sentai toys.

I guess I can kind of see it for some of them, but Ultra henshin devices in the last 5 or so years have been very different from each other with their own distinct aesthetic, style and gimmick. The Orb Ring, the Geed Riser, the R/B Gyro, the Taiga Spark, the Z-Riser, the Trigger Spark... I really couldn't call any of these similar to each other beyond being handheld devices!

The only real repetition here is the use of Legacy Ultras for the item themes, which... yeah, kinda sucks; but not exactly an unpopular opinion and doesn't really apply to then henshin devices themselves. In Showa and early Heisei the devices stuck pretty strictly to Sparks and Eyes, but not so much recently; and really at that point you could criticise most pre-W belts for being samey or most Sentai devices being bracelets.


(I also think there's, like, infinitely more value you can get out of them as toys compared to what Rider has been doing recently but that's neither here or there)

It's not, but man, I'm gonna kick in a mention that Ultraman toys are basically objectively better than Rider tends to get anyway? Even if those designs themselves ARE stale (which I don't feel either), there are a lot of really nice considerations Bandai and/or Tsuburaya seem to give them that Rider and Sentai don't get. I'm pretty sure they're always nearly 1:1 with the props you see the actors holding (Orb wasn't afraid to show Gai holding a tiny knife the way Saber is!); the music cues for the different forms are from the shows' own composers; the upside of using those legacy Ultras and monsters as the basis for the collectibles being that most of those transformation devices double as like, Ultra soundboards...

If the designs are afterthoughts, they're maybe the only thing about them that's an afterthought?

The thing that really gets me is how much you can do with what you get? Like... alright, let's compare a purchase from each franchise.

If you get the Flaming Tiger Progrise Key for 1650 Yen, then... you get the Flaming Tiger henshin and finisher in the 01 Driver, and lesser versions of that in other Drivers and weapons.

Now, if you get the Geed Access Card & Medals set for 1045 Yen? Oh boy! So, first of all you get the Galaxy Rising henshin and finisher in the Z-Riser; but you also get individual henshins and finishers for all three medals you got in this set (Ginga, X and Orb Origin), and Geed's individual henshin and finisher by using the card alone, and then both the Orb medal and the Geed card opens you up to the comprehensive library of their fusions as well; of which you can already do Orb's Zero Knuckle form and Geed's Solid Burning form with just the medals already included with the Z-Riser -- and probably a couple others I'm forgetting! And this list of combinations you can do only increases exponentially with each set you get -- the Legend Set 2 will now give you Geed Magnificent; the Gamma Future set will now give you Orb's Spacium Zeperion and Zeperion Solgent; etc! The Galaxy Rising medals were also pretty special in that they gave Z a new attack when used with the Haruki card, so that's yet another thing!

Granted of course I did choose the set that opens up more things in the Z-Riser than any other due to the Orb medal and Geed card; but even then they later released Orb again through the New Gen set and a Geed medal three times through New Gen, EX01 and Delta Rise Claw -- if you're collecting Z Medals in any capacity you will almost certainly have gotten at least Geed at some point, and even without him the fact that each medal has individual henshins and finishers on their own is a lot more bang for your buck than simply giving you the new form alone. Heck, there's other combos beyond that that don't even require Geed or Orb like Ginga Strium or Ultraman Legend! Each purchase gives you a lot to do on their own, and adds to what you already have. And the same was true for the Orb Ring and the Geed Riser; there's just so much more content packed into these things vs basically anything Rider has done.

Mine: Even for a early 70s toku, Kikaider kinda sucks.

North Korea's Pulgasari is one of the best kaiju films of all time, with definitely the best monster costume. And also a deep plot and beautiful, memorable music.
https://cs8.pikabu.ru/post_img/2016/...7245382739.jpg

Definitely a spicy take. :lol

not necessarily a hot or spicy take but i would like to see different main producers tackling the ultra series. I don't think that the current chief producer (tsugumi kitaura) is doing a bad job, i mean he did carry the franchise since ginga. I think the man deserved a big fat break, or he'll turn into takeyuki suzuki 2

Power rangers should have never existed, the show is nothing but american garbage and the fact hasbro is finally putting it in the ground is a good thing. If they want to import sentai, it should done through subs only without any alterations.

*Points at Funimation Ultraman Tiga* As long as it's not that, I guess. Not too keen on the whole burn Power Rangers to the ground idea, but as long as it ain't Funimation'd.

I'm not going to get too into the first part of the statement because man, people really can't help but be mean-spirited towards this franchise, huh? That said...

On the subject of subs only though, I do think if you want Sentai to reach more people and gain a wider footing in a global audience... it needs to be dubbed too. I mean specifically in the style of the recent Ultraman Series dubs (Shin, Z, Blazar, Arc). Sometimes people just can't jive with subtitles and need something in their actual language. Or they have medical reasons.

http://pbs.twimg.com/media/GR0upUzXQ....jpg?name=orig

While I absolutely understand that live action dubbing is a bit odd for some people, I think it should be considered an option when importing these shows over. Plus, they've done some good work with the dubs we have had.

When it comes to subtitles or dubbing, it all comes down to quality. Not only is the art of dubbing itself not very developed in the English-language segment, but the difference in acting approaches also comes into conflict. In Japanese and in Asian art in general, they prefer overacting and grotesque emotionality. Even if the character is unemotional, he does it pointedly, playing a robot who won’t be surprised even if he meets a dinosaur. At the same time, a much more relaxed approach prevails in the English-speaking environment. Just remember how many recognized and successful Hollywood actors spend 90% of their screen time muttering something under their breath, occasionally smiling. Because of this difference, when dubbing, a problem without a solution will inevitably arise: if you voice expressively, as in the original, it will be unnatural for an English-speaking viewer; and if you do it according to your standards, then dissonance between sound and picture will arise.

And to think that if Power Rangers had never existed then this discussion likely would've never happened.

I almost always watch things subbed, but I actually sympathize with people who struggle with subtitles a lot. While I do prefer using original audio tracks, I also have trouble understanding speech when there is lots of background noise, to the point I always use subtitles even for stuff in English, and it sucks when there isn't a subtitle track available! So I feel bad for people who struggle with reading subs for one reason or another but don't have other options. Ideally any show or movie would have both options, but sometimes one or the other gets skipped over. Creating a sub track for a show might be considered pointless for something getting aired only for children, while at other times dubbing might be considered cost prohibitive for a show with a relatively small audience.

I think Tsuburaya is being smart by creating quality, faithful dubs while also offering the original subbed show. Gives them the widest reach and fans of either version are generally getting the same experience. Power Rangers... I think it is something of a relic I suppose. The rewritten and recast format of the show was the only way Sentai would be marketable in the States in any form during the 90s and 2000s, but culturally I think there has been a shift away from these sorts of heavily altered "regional" releases here. I just have a hard time seeing what niche it is even supposed to be filling at this point. No offense to any fans of course.

Pretty much. Power Rangers did what it thought would be more befitting at the time and it worked back when Saturday morning cartoons were still a thing, but times have changed. As for Toei, they really need to check Tsuburaya's playbook when it comes to international distribution and marketing. It's great that they're starting with physical media releases of Rider and Sentai (and Metal Heroes as of late), but it's sad that Toei still doesn't seem to feel the need to just release their shows after they air in Japan. Tsuburaya has been doing it for years now, and I'm sure the reception has been good so far. Until then, I can only assume some higher-up in charge doesn't feel the need to.

Why does it need to fill one?

I mean... it's kind of necessary to have one if long-term survival of the series is on the table. Like, I'm a Digimon fan, a series that has some similar issues such as clinging to early entries, chronic struggles to bring in and retain new fans, etc. It will collapse eventually if it can't establish a new niche sooner or later. If it can't survive... well I had fun while it lasted.

I hope none of this comes across as too gloomy. I'm a total outsider to the PR fanbase, but I hope that also means I might be able to offer a slightly different perspective. Gotta change with the times!

No, it doesn't. Plenty of franchises survive without having such a niche to fill. Mazinger Z, for example, is still very much around despite super robot shows now being nothing new.

Franchises live or die based on how much money they make as well as anyone in a company who's willing to keep them going.

No offense, but yeah, you show you very much are an outsider because Power Rangers has infact changed and evolved over time.

If one compares MMPR to Dino Fury, outside of the general theme of dinosaurs, the two are basically night and day. The themes, the tone, the style of action, it's all different and alot of things were done very much due to fan demand. Heck, as much as I personally dislike the guy's' social media presense, Simon Bennett did try to appease the older fanbase when he did work on the show.

One must also take into account that PR isn't just the live-action Toku anymore and hasn't been for basically a decade now. Thanks to Saban we got the comics and the video/tabletop games, both of which have been very successful with who they set out to appeal to. Heck, Battle for the Grid is still a rather popular fighting game with pro players, thanks in part to them getting pro players to help develop the game itself.

And of course, the show has always been and continues to be profitable. Even under Hasbro, the show made money, it's just that the current president doesn't care about the franchise and thus it's getting torched. One of the reasons many people are upset about the situation.

The short of it is that it's not because of stagnation, or lack of innovation or whatever, it's literally the doing of a company that doesn't care for it. Power Rangers continued to exist and be successful because people liked it and cared about it, no different from, say, Ultraman or whatever.

Oh, there's no way that a Sentai dub made in the 90s wouldn't be a gag dub like Tiga.

And now I'm imagining Burai talking like the Tick from the 90s Fox Kids cartoon. :lolol

Gonna have to disagree here, but I really think it comes down to semantics and how you interpret the word "niche."

For me, from a marketing perspective, a niche can be thought of as something's place in the market, which is related to its target demographic. Some are bigger, some are smaller. But if something has no, no niche, no place carved out into the market, no target audience...then how can we expect there to be any demand for it? By saying they don't understand what niche Power Rangers is filling, it's asking "what type of audience is this being made for?" And that's a very very important question to be able to answer.

To define Mazinger Z's niche, you just have to ask who it would appeal to. I would say: people who enjoy classic super robot anime, can appreciate classic super robot anime tropes, people who are interested in anime history, people who like Devilman and want to see other Go Nagai works, etc. Very different niche from something like Jujutsu Kaisen.

edit: Anyways, my unpopular tokusatsu opinion is that Shin Ultraman and Shin Kamen Rider were both pretty bad. The pacing was poor and the use of CGI in the fights made them feel gimmicky. I would have much rather seen more traditional tokusatsu action, not the weird flurry of CGI fists that we got.

Then the term that should be used here is "target audience." And the answer to that is: 5-10 year olds and their parents who enjoy superhero shows first and foremost, with the toku fans and people who grew up with the show being secondary, just as it's always been.

And guess what? The show has always been both appealing and profitable in that area. Even some of the seasons that fans who are terminally online like to complain about, such as Samurai, were successful in their endeavors. Both via ratings as well as merch sales.

To say that Power Rangers has no target audience or appeals solely because Toku has slowly been growing bigger over the last few years is no different than saying other long-runners like Mazinger Z or Sailor Moon have no place because anime of their kind have become alot more common place/popular over time.

Let it be my unpopular opinion then. Speaking of Tsuburaya, I really don't think their path is all that successful. That is, it is successful in terms of winning the hearts of fans, but just dig a little deeper and information regularly emerges about the company?s financial problems. The main shows, although they sparkle with originality and are pleasing to the eye, are extended by recap episodes. And all Western collaborations/Western-oriented projects outside the fan base receive very average ratings. Okay, what I?m writing now is a lot more IMHO, but still. It seems to me that Tsuburaya does not earn anything or earns very little from his conventionally ?Western? content, because due to the unpopularity of the franchise for the bulk of the English-speaking and world audience, their Western partners in these projects take all the small profits for themselves. And that is why Toei is in no hurry to enter the international market, so as not to feed the vultures. I know it came out a little harsh, but I think someone should have noticed the kaiju in the room.

Okay, wasn't sure if I was going to comment again but we're really going into Tsupro and Toei's standings and I feel like we need to step back and consider a couple of things.

The reason Tsuburaya is reaching out as far as it does and why it makes the partnerships it does is because all they have is Ultraman. They're just a Tokusatsu production company with a couple of recognizable brands. They've had financial trouble sure, but it's clear that they're definitely bouncing back and them spreading out to the worldwide market is one of the reasons for that.

Also when talking about budget I think you also need to address the other party in the room, Bandai. Bandai's the one that gives the budgets and what they'll allow and so forth. It's probably why Ultraman can only go up to 25 episodes, and Tsuburaya when purchasing broadcast rights has to hit just above that so that's why (and also likely to account for any breaks they want to do that would be on days that might bring in less viewers). It does feel like Bandai's been opening up more though, what with the recent slew of a handful of original Kaiju made for both Blazar and Arc.

When it comes to Toei... lol, I think it's funny to think they're afraid of feeding "vultures". No, when it comes to Toei, it is so massive beyond the Tokusatsu it produces, even beyond the anime it produces, that of course they're not in a hurry to go to the west or further worldwide. It would give them more money, but it'd be such a negligible amount to them that they really don't care about making that money.

Tldr: the difference between Tsuburaya and Toei, which I think people constantly forget, is that one is purely a Tokusatsu studio while the other has their hands in a lot of pies so to speak. Which absolutely affects how they respond and handle certain things.

Yeah, you're right about that. Bandai's support aside, it's easy to forget how Tsuburaya is a studio of dedicated tokusatsu artisans while Toei is relatively a much bigger studio that also deals with anime and non-toku live-action shows and movies. Perhaps it's easy for Tsuburaya to do what they do in terms of releasing their shows because of that. However, I still do think Toei's toku department needs to consider it and do the same if they are able to or when the opportunity is there. But thank you for pointing that out.

Ok, I admit that part of my comment about Toei is wrong. But I also still insist that Tsuburaya's Western projects are not very successful. That is, the comments on "New Hero" or "Rising" outside of tokusatsu fans are not very enthusiastic. Therefore, it’s hard for me to imagine that Tsuburaya made much money from them, especially considering that the profits had to be shared with the animators and Netflix. I don't even think it worked much in terms of attracting new viewers, because kids who liked "Rising" will most likely think it's an Illumination cartoon, just like I thought "Anastasia" was a Disney cartoon when I was a kid. Of course, it's easy to check now, but how many of them will be interested enough to do it? So for Tsuburaya it's more about earning points from already existing fans. And, remembering Zi-O: Supplementary Plan, Toei, as it were, pretends to be an asshole company

I mean last I checked, Ultraman's really popular in China.

And what do we have here with our latest Kamen Rider? It seems Gavv was filmed in advanced so that they could go through China compliance laws and air it earlier there.

Feel like there's a connection there, if minor, about Ultraman's popularity and success worldwide.

I readily believe in plans to develop the Chinese market, because there is definitely an audience there, and with very clear tastes. But, given global trends, I think that the Chinese and Western media markets are now little connected, if not separated at all. So for the global community itself, I see the benefit only in the emergence of a greater variety of translations and resources.

I'm not sure what Tsubaraya's overall attitude is towards China these days, but I do know that they've been having a lot of trouble with Ultramega, the company that bought Chaiyo's infamous "rights" to Ultraman. They're still putting out media and merchandise in China and claim to be the real owners of the IP.