Since Die couldn't answer this, maybe I can think of something instead.

I don't think Shounen was even aware he had complex feelings for Mochida until he thought she and Kiriya were dating. However, what you said about the possibility of him acting like Kaido definitely would have been a bad idea, since those are two very different characters. Something similar happened in Kyoryuger and it was painful. Regarding Mari's age though, it isn't really a significant problem in that culture since Japan's 13 is USA's 18.

I think it's important for characters to be written consistently, which is something that's a problem for writers like Yonemura Shoji, Sanjo Riku and Haganeya Jin, who don't really understand the concept that a character needs a catalyst for them to change. At least if Inoue writes a terrible character, he writes a consistently terrible character, who will only change for the better under the right circumstances, and vice versa for nice characters.

Something I noticed that I thought was strange though was how Shounen's relationship with Akira seemed to change offscreen. Like in the first half, it was "Akira-san" but in the second half, it's "Amami-san". It's the opposite of what happened in Faiz Paradise Lost with Mari calling Kusaka coldly as Masato without honorific except that change happened in Lost World as we know and her contempt was justified.

BTW, you can refer to me with male pronouns.

I think it's more like the introductory arc was about Todoroki trying to find his way as a new Oni after being forced to take over from Zanki unexpectedly and the concluding arc was about Todoroki solidifying himself in the role he gradually grew in to as an accumulation of his experience throughout the show and receiving Zanki's final blessing with his participation in the symbolic purifying of the battlefield to cleanse himself as well. I believe these two characters, despite the similarity of the aforementioned arcs, are ultimately in different places between the start and end of their development.

I think this plot would have been much earlier and better executed had the Orochi incident not derailed it. The brand new Douji and Hime showing up at the end is a typical Inoue-style cliffhanger, except this is a show where the villains are so vague that it's hard to care where that goes. We already knew their hierarchy was confusing so it doesn't mean anything other than showing just another link in the chain.

Why do you think Kiriya's henshin is stupid though? After training for a year, I think he earned that big moment and he even shows growth by acknowledging Shounen's merit. Don't ask me how his clothes survive the henshin though, I can't answer that.

Not sure if this was deliberate or just meta commentary on how you disliked this episode but kudos for using Hime in your finale screencaps. It's a fitting tribute to Ashina Sei, her recently deceased actress.

I like how triumphant Shounen sounds when he says "I'm not going to become an Oni." which is preceded immediately by his leitmotif. Out of context, that sentence sounds like surrender, but instead it's him firmly telling Hibiki that he's not going to become an Oni, cause he's not an Oni.

When Akira declared her resignation, it's cause she stopped wanting to be an Oni, but she still didn't know then what she really wanted to do. But Shounen's declaration is about how he found something he wants to do more, something that makes him feel validated!

Pacing-wise, it's frustrating to have the emotional climax of the series need to stop for a brand-new battle against the Makamou... when the show cuts away in the beginning from a battle against the Makamou. Worse, the only narrative reason to cut away from the opening battle is if there's some mystery to its conclusion, but here we're told immediately that it all worked out and everyone's fine. I don't love that opening!

The stuff with the Fanciest-Dress Douji and Hime isn't a dealbreaker, but it's a concept that adds nothing to what we've seen other than a twist for twist's sake. At best it's forgettable, and boy is that not what you should be aiming for in a finale.

I guess I just saw Todoroki being in a good place as an Oni, and with his relationship with Zanki... and then suddenly he's begging Zanki to fight with him and punch him and it all feels forced to me. The characters were doing well, until Todoroki started freaking out and feeling jealous. There's some specifics to what Zanki is doing (his sacrifice, his commitment to Todoroki) that were different enough to have some moving scenes, but the Todoroki part of the story just felt repetitious to me.

It's more that the episode treats it like A NEW SUIT and I'm like It's Kiriya Though, and the episode says A NEW ONI FOR A NEW GENERATION and I'm like It's Kiriya Though. Kiriya always works well for me as a supporting cast character, someone like Hinaka or Hitomi. When I'm supposed to celebrate his accomplishments as worth something in their own right, I just don't feel like it's worth the show's time? It felt very much like, since Asumu is definitely not going to Henshin in the finale, one of the kids needed to, so here's Kiriya as an Oni. It's not a terrible concept, but I don't think it needed so much time or emphasis in the finale.

Screencaps are 99% deliberate. I usually pull a bunch during an episode, think about what feelings the episode generated, and then pick a couple that can suit that mood.

I'd love to say it was a tribute to the actor, that last one, but it was coincidence. I really enjoyed her performance, though. Of the plots that could've meant more to the final couple episodes, I wish we'd gotten a better conclusion to the evolving Hime.

KAMEN RIDER HIBIKI 30-48 WRAP-UP

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...ikiphase2a.png

"If the right side eludes you this time
There's another one standing in line
And the languages change in the dark
But on paper it makes perfect sense"

-Superchunk, "The Only Piece That You Get"

The best way I can think to compare the two phases of Hibiki is by comparing two sets of episodes: 17/18 and 34/35.

The first two are the Ibuki/Kasumi date episodes. It's all about how Kasumi views Ibuki as a boy, and can't quite see him as the man he's become. Once she gets to see him in his element, as an Oni, she respects him as a man. It's a stirring episode of discovery, a story of mutual respect and how we sometimes aren't able to see our friends' development. It's tender, and unexpected.

The second two are a story where Todoroki gives Hinaka a fish for her birthday, and she thinks she should break up with him. His lack of confidence in his lovelife causes him to be terrible in his professional life, leading to him making such good ramen that Hinaka sees him as a man worth loving. It's ridiculous, and untethered from reality.

The thing is, I think they both have their strengths. I don't think one is wrong. The first phase story is sweet, but lacks dynamism. It's deliberate, but can sometimes feel dull in stretches. The second phase story is a blast, but with a comedic edge that smothers its poignancy. It reduces characters to caricature, even as it makes those caricatures lovable and worth rooting for.

Tonally, these two things don't belong together. Separately... they have their merits?

I already wrote a bunch about the first phase, so let me get a few words in about the second phase, as a whole. (Normally, this'd be a post taking apart the entire series, but I just don't see the value in doing that this time. Doesn't seem like a fair way to approach things.)

The Asumu stuff works. It really does. The main thing the new team needed to do was keep the Asumu story heading in the right direction, and I really think they did. There're a couple weird turns, and some episodes where he felt abandoned, but it ain't like the first phase didn't have a couple bum episodes for that kid. The steady growth of Asumu, from apprentice to artist to doctor to man, I think they did a great job making that path feel as uncertain as Asumu always was, while resolving itself in a satisfying way. The series was originally about how to grow up well, and that part of the show was still a major emphasis for the second phase.

Kiriya is... I mean, not a great character. He's funny, and aggressively awful, but his character is like a play on that South Park joke: Step 1: Terrible > Step 2: ??? > Step 3: Oni. I liked some of how the show maneuvered him into that role, but it's still pretty rushed. He's a natural foil to Asumu's character, someone who's trained and confident and driven, all things that Asumu lacks, while being so catastrophically flawed on an emotional level that he's got the biggest hill to climb as an Oni apprentice. He mostly didn't feel believable as a human being (the stuff with his dad resonated with me, but that's it), despite being a pretty fun addition to the cast, which is probably why he's what I'll always think of when I think of the second phase of Hibiki.

Well, him or Todoroki, who seems like The New Pet for the writing team on the second phase. Todoroki gets WAY more of the spotlight in the second phase, for better or worse. I genuinely disliked the Zanki Dies story, specifically for how superfluous it felt for Todoroki's personal growth, but there's no denying that it was a big story for the show. Todoroki gets both the funniest episodes of the second phase (YMMV), as well as the most heart-rending. He's a lot wackier in this part of the show, which is a very Inoue thing, and it's not always to the show's benefit. I think the actor elevated everything he was given (I get why they wanted to write more comedic material for him), but not everything he was given was worth elevating.

Alongside Todoroki, Hinaka sure became the Main Sister, didn't she? Definitely graduated to the main cast. Kasumi barely gets a look in during the second phase, with Hinaka's relationship stories supplanting Kasumi's, and no more camping to get Kasumi out into the monster plots. Like Hitomi, Kasumi's a character that got dropped pretty hard in the second phase.

Ibuki's another one who, boy, not a lot going on. Ostensibly he's got something to do in the Akira Quits story, but the whole point of that one ends up being that he doesn't get a vote in what she decides, so, nope! (Also, oh my god, my least favorite part of that story is when Ibuki made it all about him.) He's a very pleasant, handsome boy in the second phase, and that ends up being the entirety of his arc.

Hibiki... I don't think he came off worse in the second phase, but... I think Hibiki is a problem that the show never really solved in either phase. There's a way to do a monster show that runs alongside a coming-of-age drama, but I don't think anyone on this show really figured out how to make it work in a longform way. Which is not to say that they didn't figure it out episode-by-episode! Because they did! It's just, Hibiki not really being able to substantially grow over this thing, to only be able to incrementally open himself up to being a friend to Asumu, it's a tough arc for a character. It mostly feels like he stays static, which is some faint praise. He doesn't worsen in the second phase, but he still feels as occasionally irrelevant as he could in the first phase. His basic character in the finale is the same as his character in the premiere, except now he has Asumu in his life. That's a big thing! But, it's one thing. I don't know. It's really hard to have a non-Rider be the main character of a Rider show, and I don't know if this series ever figured out the best way to deal with the Primary Rider.

It doesn't help that the monster stuff went from being dull to actively frustrating, though. If there's one thing I could've predicted in advance of watching these last 19 episodes, it's that Inoue would suck at doing an overarching monster plot. It's not like the season-long monster plots on Agito or Faiz were any great shakes. Agito's was relentlessly vague, while Faiz's had a real tough time switching into its endgame. (We may never know for sure why the previous team was let go, or why Inoue was put in charge of the writing, but it will never not be funny for me to think that the execs wanted a more action-focused show and they picked the guy who was the worst at crafting monster plots.) And here, he had a basically blank slate (there was precious little established by the previous creative team) and he still couldn't figure out a way to make it worth watching. The Oni storyline is a gigantic shrug, with a final battle that the show couldn't care enough about to actually show the victory. The most I could be on the side of the people who write-off the second phase is on the topic of the monster plots. They're at best nonsensical, when they're not infuriating. The worst writing on this show is as a result of the monster plots.

And yet, I wouldn't call the second phase bad. (Well, maybe 38 and 39...) I think it's sloppy, sure. It is trying to work at a higher temperature than the other phase, absolutely. But I think there are elements that continue to work (Asumu, mostly) that make it worth watching. I think there's care taken to try and honor what came before, while still working to different guidelines. There are some gems in here, buried. It's arguable if it's worth the time to sift for them, and I don't blame anyone who opts not to, but right now I'm leaning towards feeling like it was worth it for me.

https://kamenriderdie.com/images/kr/...ikiphase2b.png

One think I didn't see anyone mentioning is that the last episode was constantly be redone and re-written, my understanding is that they were still changing their minds on it while they were writing it. They even had an Oni suit for Asumu made, which they then ripped apart and stuck bits of it to Kiriya's suit instead.

So, yeah the production of the episode was even messier than the episode itself.

I'm fairly confident that they got Inoue to do this second phase because Faiz was (I think) the most critically successful season of Rider by a large margin and they probably just said to him "Please just do what you did there".

All of that was mentioned actually, two pages ago, courtesy of Switchblade.

Funny (also sad) to think what kind of ideas were floating around yet they settled for 'extended epilogue where the bad guys try to perform an evil experiment on hitomi'.

I’m in much the same boat as you. The second half does have its ups and its downs, but I wouldn’t call it objectively terrible. That tweet I quoted a while back? He later said that Hibiki had become his favourite Heisei Rider series (displacing Kuuga) partially because of it.

By contrast, the next series, which is handled by the same writers and producer team as this second half, I’d put it in my top 5. I’ll go into why as you go through that watch along, but most of the time on that thread, I’ll be pointing out what past Rider every Rider in the show is a homage to and any (possible) similarities.

I just want to say this before the thread ends, but 38 and 39 were written by someone named Shōji Yonemura not Inoue. I'm not sure what circumstances lead to the episodes being so bad though. I don't have experience with his other writings. (He wrote Smile Precure though, so that's a thing)

There's a joking defense I like to make about the later part of Hibiki, which is that it's a lot better if you just pretend it's Inoue's Todoroki fan-fiction. I've been meaning to find some excuse to bring that up in here, and I guess you confirming for me I'm not just misremembering the (excessive?) amount of focus he gets is just that. It's not some particularly clever thing, but I love describing it that way because it straddles a fine line between sounding like genuine apologist talk ("you just need to adjust your expectations") and an outright condemnation ("it's about the quality you'd expect from your average fan-fic").

That ambiguity expresses my conflicted feelings on what happened to this show pretty much perfectly; I don't actually hate it anywhere near as much as I think a lot of people do, but even then, I wouldn't exactly say I'm fond of it on any significant level either. Except maybe those first two Inoue episodes, which, again, I legitimately mistook for part of the old era somehow.

Y'know, the funny thing is that I remember being very disappointed by Hibiki's second half. After rewatching the show, I've re-evaluated my opinion to mildly disappointed. I've seen Inoue do better, he wrote my favorite show, but I've also seen him do worse. I can tell he was at least trying to do something here. Maybe it didn't totally work but the stuff that worked was worth watching for.

But Kabuto? Used to be in my top 5 as well. It was the second Rider show I watched after Decade. Something changed though, when I rewatched it in 2016. I was aware of the stuff I disliked from the first time and maybe that diminished my enjoyment. I couldn't enjoy certain things cause I knew they would be ruined later. I won't be as active in the Kabuto thread since I'm not watching along this time (instead, I'm going to rewatch my 4th favorite Rider show, Kamen Rider Ghost!), but I do have a few things to say and fortunately, not all of them are complaints.

The main reason Inoue and Shirakura were brought into the 2nd half was because Agito,Ryuki and Faiz were all critical and commercial success. The higher up probably were thinking along the lines of these guys made us alot a cash a couple of years ago let them have Hibiki in order to get our ratings and sponsers back. Without thinking about how there style of writing and producing clashed with Taketera style.