So can I just watch the Begins Night portion of the movie and then just jump straight into the show, then? The Wiki says its the true beginning of the series, and takes place between episodes 14 and 15. So should I just jump back in at episode 13 to refresh my memory?

Thanks guys!!! This should keep us busy!! Can't wait!!

Sounds right. I always think it takes place after 16, and I'm always wrong. :lol

You remember how I mentioned W starts right in the action? It starts with them running in the building and Shotaro's boss gets shot, then it fast-forwards to them already active and used to W? Begins Night actually shows his origin and expands the backstory/plants seeds for future arcs.

I'd say jumping in at 13 is a safe bet. Can't remember what arc that is. (so long as it's not "Heaven's Tornado" :lol)

Beware, Gaim is NOT typical Rider. It's much more fast-paced. Where Gaim is now, most shows don't reach until the final leg. So try not to compare it to them too much.

Apparently episode 13 is the beginning of the Question arc. So it seems the perfect place to jump back in, as its the start of a brief arc.

Totally agree. And a lot of criticism of Western super heroes has to do with how reactionary they are. So this point has a little bit of peanut butter in its chocolate and a little bit of chocolate in its peanut butter.


Well, filler is its own problem. Ongoing American stories have lots of filler too. That's an accessibility issue, at least in America. Networks don't like stories that are too complex (which any 24 hour series where every episode is story-centric would be) because it alienates potential new viewers. I feel like that applies doubly to a kids' show.

And if they're not true heroes until the end, they can't really be truly heroic in the middle. Right? ;)

I guess I'm not really understanding this complaint. Unless they're clairvoyant, how is it possible for a hero to know trouble is going to break out before it does?

I think being reactionary is a facet of any hero, and that's why groups like The Authority were created. That series illustrates why heroes can't be too proactive: because that way leads toward fascism. "We're going to stop you before you do anything wrong!" "How do you know I was about to do something wrong?" "You're the type to do wrong!" "I haven't done wrong, you can't punish me just because you think my type is prone to doing wrong things." "No, I can, because my moral authority is unimpeachable!"

Since they're not able to predict the future, is it morally justifiable for a hero to draw first blood or throw the first punch?

That said, it is pretty weird how unfeeling Kiva tends to be in the face of all this outright murder. But I don't judge that show like I judge other shows -- so little of it makes any logical sense.

Ha! Too true.

Wataru is a bit autistic isn't he? :lol

That would have been pretty badass. It would also have given Shizuka a reason for existing!

Basically.

As long as it's not gross stale peanut butter they stuff in a lot of PB/Chocolate candy.

But the filler is not a problem. It's what the filler is.

Like I said, every episode the rider kills a monster. Why can't he just once get there in time? Kiva was able to save his rocker friend, but that actually hurts his case. Only when someone he cared for personally was in danger did he act with enough speed to save him.

This is completely wrong.

There is no set model of "true hero." That's why I love W. "Nobody's perfect" Narumi Sokichi says. There is no use setting a standard you cannot achieve. There is no shame in not being the best at everything. Being a hero is not a checklist.

W was a true hero from the beginning. Being a true hero is not about skill, or knowledge. It's about the will to act. THAT is heroism. Saving people is heroism. Feeling for the people you save or cannot save is heroism. Want, regret, action, for others. That's heroism. That is what too many riders lack.

I was kind of leading into my narrative point of view.

If you're not going to deconstruct heroes being reactionary, stop writing them as ineffectual heroes. Stop making up situations where people die if you're not going to analyze it or have a reason for people dying. If they just die because, that's bad writing.

If these weren't monsters who exist merely to kill and destroy, you might have a point.

But no, there is no moral standing with the majority of Kamen Rider monsters. Especially the Fangire, who've always killed someone in the past before re-emerging in the present.

Drawing first blood on a creature who's entire existence is cruelty and death is not a problem. Letting them kill time and again, is.

Exactly.

It's not that murder and death happen, it's that he never reacts. It's just some ambient, normal thing to him, but as I said, not in a deconstructive way.

Hahaha, people on the spectrum aren't entirely uncaring sociopaths. We're often actually quite compassionate, it's just that we tend to not really understand why we feel compassion for others.

Oddly enough, some of Hajime's dialogue came across as this: he felt compassion for Amane and her mother and a sense of responsibility toward keeping them safe, but he didn't understand why. He knew the reason was that Spirit was influencing him, all while he tried to grasp the human aspect of it all.

Things is, Wataru never even acknowledges it.

You guys treat this like a deconstructive element, but the show never does that. Wataru is not autistic, they just write him the way he is because they think it's funny. No secret or thought behind it, just sloppy writing. You're giving the show far too much credit.

You do bring up something that does come up when heroes are brought up: Whenever they seem to be doing too much.

I used to be part of the MUGEN community and let me tell you right now they hate DC Heroes because they feel they embody the tracts of the Authority. Personally I don't agree with this statement and feel that Marvel heroes spend more time twilling their thumbs and worst beating each other up for stupid reason. Thou DC tends to be like that too, just not as much as Marvel.

I think given how American comics can be is why Riders are that way: to just deal with certain problems and not give a hoot towards anyone that dies.
It's jarring, but it seems shows like W are bucking that tread.

Fair enough.

I think that speaks volumes about Kiva's character, though. And shows that he's not intended to be heroic up front -- he has way too much baggage.

I'd argue that Wataru's main flaw is his passivity, of which reluctance to involve himself in the Fangire conflict is a part.

This timidity is the hurdle he must leap to become the hero he needs to be.

Me? Wrong??? Blasphemy! ;)

I was about to present my definition of heroism, but I'm glad I don't have to! You just summed up everything I would have said.

I think you're right about Shotaro/W. He (and really all of the neo-Heisei primary Riders, come to think of it) is set up as a hero from the get-go. What I disagree with is the notion that all Riders should follow the same heroic-up-front model.

I find it interesting, from a character perspective, that earlier Riders generally had to overcome a hurdle that prevented them from being a hero -- whether that hurdle was a lack of self-confidence, arrogance, selfishness, ignorance, or passivity.

I'm not saying Shotaro/Phillip isn't a flawed guy, but his flaws don't obstruct his innate heroism. Other Riders are not innately heroic, and I find the various journeys from jerk/idiot/coward to hero over the course of a series to be pretty fulfilling.

Though I admit, maybe there aren't enough pure heroes in this hero franchise. And maybe that's the point of this whole discussion.

I agree. Every element of a show should be done with some narrative purpose in mind, especially character deaths, and many Rider series fail to address the intent. Kiva, in particular, exemplifies an odd callousness about death (which makes a bit more sense later on, but not ever enough to justify the volume of nonchalant murder).

True, the issue of morality might not be an issue with Fangires or Mirror Monsters or their ilk. But what about Orphenochs, Zodiarts, Dopants, Inves, Phantoms, and certain varieties of Greed? Those threats' motivations are more complex (even certain Fangires turn out to be more morally ambiguous that you might expect).


At the end of the day, I see what you're saying. Maybe the franchise could stand to have a few more Ws and a few fewer Kivas. But I still think the jerk/idiot/loser-to-hero arc is more compelling (to me) than the hero-reinforces-his-own-heroism arc.