Final Form Discussion
 

Board Member Ryan started this conversation, and I just wanted to move it out of the SH Figuart Thread. And into it's own thread.

What counts as a Rider's Final Form?

And I'll start from where we left off: Which was Den-O Liner vs Den-O Climax (Super). And honestly? I'm still falling under Liner being the Final Form. I don't like counting Movie Exclusive Forms as their ultimate form. Like Meteor Fusion, or Super TaToBa. Fourze's Ultimate is Cosmic, and OOO's is PuPoTyra. (And now OOO will yell because I got it wrong, but I doing that abreviation from memory... So bite me, OOO :lol)

I honestly like Den-O Liner Form alot better to because the Imagine become swords, and he can fight without one all together if he wanted. But that's me.

I'm just gonna quote what I said in the Figuarts thread:

meteor fusion is not a final form, super tatoba/super climax is imo.

For me, what makes a good final form is that it has to:

1. Be significantly more powerful than the regular.
2. Base itself off of a powered up version of the regular power source (Blade uses a card, King form uses the deck; OOO uses regular Core medals, PuToTyra uses unique Core medals; etc.) - this is what makes Climax form my choice instead of Liner, by the way - four Imagin instead of one.
3. Have some kind of drawback (Ultimate Kuuga and King Form Blade consume the user's soul, Stronger Charge Up will kill him if he doesn't use up all the energy, etc.)
4. Has to appear more than once (even Ultimate Kuuga managed that - this cuts off things like Super TaToBa or Meteor Fusion).

Number 3 is tragically underused, sadly. PuToTyra's the first final form in awhile that's had any kind of drawback (berserker fury). I like it when a final form has that, though, as it makes it feel more like a weapon of desperation, not something that can be spammed easily (coughEmperorKivacough).

In a literal sense, yes, Liner is the final form for Den-O.
However, the the matter of which the term "Final Form" is used is generally used to denote their most powerful form, not their literal last form obtained, which in Den-O's case, would be Climax.

So, wouldn't Rising Ultimate and Super Climax be the actual Final Forms for Kuuga and Den-O then?

For the OOO issue, I have been back and forth on it. He lost the purple cores at the end of the series, and gained Super TaToBa in Megamax. But then he had a copy of the purple Cores in SuperHero Taisen, so I'd put them as so

Final Form (Power Based)- PuToTyra
Final Form (Balanced abilities)- Super TaToBa

I think alot of my adversion to Climax is alot to do with how it looks, to be honest. I don't like how all the masks become his armor, I don't like how it looks like a two-year went nuts with hot glue gun. Liner is more uniformed, more cohesive. And in my opnion: more powerful.

But I also see how Super Climax could be considered his Final Form. I respect your opinion, but you won't change my mind about it being Liner.

So what would you guys count as Fourze's then?

Cosmic
Meteor Fusion
Rocket States
Whatever the States will be when he combines with those other two?

For me it's Cosmic. It has a real power up, it has a real draw back n if he doesn't believe in his friends it's gone. And has a real sense of "This is the Ultimate Fourze".

Wouldn't super TaToBa technically just be a future version of TaToBa? I mean whats to say there isn't a super TaJaDol medal set or some crazy combo that Kougami made?

So yeah, for me personally it'd be PuToTyra.

As for others...

Den-O is super climax form. It's a power up of his most powerful form and is used more than once. I like liner better design wise but it was dependent on Ryotaro's strength and skill, and he didn't have a lot of that =p

W's would be cyclone joker extreme... His gold upgrade is more of fluke then a directly controllable power up, so I'd say it doesn't count.

Can't really say about Fourze, without seeing how Fusion states is created, but it's probably going to be cosmic.

Think that's everybody...

Super Climax, yes. Rising Ultimate is the final form for Onodera Kuuga, the real Kuuga's final form is Ultimate.

Personally this is my choice for the more debatable riders.

Kuuga - Ultimate
Because this is the actual Kuuga's final form. Heisei Riders from Decade series always seems to be replica's of the actual riders to me.

Den-O - Super Climax
Because it's more powerful then Liner form. Has all 5 imagins fused with him, as per how his base forms are but this is with all 5. Liner form to me, is like a form without the imagins.

OOO - Super Tatoba
Because it's the power up of his original medals. If Putotyra is the final form, what makes the core medals? Just because it's stronger becase of the berserk nature, does it mean it's on a higher league then the other medals?

Fourze - Cosmic
Almost the same reasons as Den-O. A combination of all his switches. Did not choose Meteor Fusion because he needs the Meteor switch, which I suppose rightfully is not his.

Just my 2 cents. :P

i have to agree with the super climax form for this, because its a fusion of all the imagen (his main sourse of power)
for fourse its cosmic i dont think anyone thoght other wise, and super tatoba is more a raising maighty for than a final form. one last every stop harpy on kiva emp. from there was a reason they used so much

Part of what makes PuToTyra the final form is that the medals can't be mixed and matched like the other forms. They have to be used with each other and they give the OOO suit a unique appearance that's different than any of the others (the white suit instead of black).

Super TaToBa is just a slightly different power-up of the base suit. If anything, I'd compare it more to Kuuga's Amazing Mighty form - it's a big upgrade of the original powers, but there's still a stronger form out there.

or gold extreme, i'd put them as the ultimate form

It's the inability to be mix 'n matched as well as the power to destroy cores that clinches PuToTyra for me.

Ah, I admit I forgot about the inability for it to mix with other medals. :/ Now I'm more confused. Lol.

But that inability to mix and match can be applied to Super TaToBa and hell even TaMaShii (aside from it's Taka medal).

And the Imagin medal he got from Momo.

I really am starting to think that there should be a separate category for movie forms. It seems like we're getting more and more of these forms that only appear in movies, some of which are really strong (CJGX, Super TaToBa) and some that are just regular level variations (BuraKaWani, Rocket States). Seeing as how most of these never show up in the series proper, I don't really think it's right to count them as being the same as the forms that do appear on the actual show (unless they cross over, like Rocket States).

The difference is that Super TTB and TMS were never used more than once.

And I agree, Movie forms should get their own category. Considering movie forms for OOO, there are still 2 (Black Cores and the Future Water Cores) that we have yet to see still. And I bet there will be more switches for Fourze as well.

I just don't see why they need to be seperate. For the most part Rider movies are in continuity with the show they are from these days (Core War and Wonderful aside). They literally exist within the universe that the show takes place in. Why should they be shunted off because they were only used once? I mean Megamax takes place after OOO ended and Eiji is going to reappear for at least a couple more years as a movie cameo guy. Whats to say he won't at least use Super TaToBa again?

For the same reason why we don't see Kiva using that dragon bird form of his again :p

hey flight style is epic and one of my favorite things that kiva can do. tied with emperor form obviously xp

So where do Final Form Rides rank on this?? Do they even count? Because I think, at the very least, CycloneCyclone and JokerKoker deserve to be counted.

Kuuga : Ultimate Kuuga
Agito: Shining Form
Ryuki: Ryuki Survive
Blade: King Form
Faiz: Blaster Form
Hibiki: Haven't watched the show yet
Kabuto: Hyper Kabuto
Den-O: Climax Form (Because Super Climax wasn't in the show I don't think.)
Kiva: Emperor
Decade: Decade Complete
W: C/J Extreme
OOO: I would actually say OOO's doesn't have an Ultimate Form
Fourze: Cosmic States

I normally count Ultimate Forms as just in the show. Unless a movie shows one that directly ties in the show, then I don't count them. Like Hyper Gattack wouldn't count since it wasn't in the show. Just my 2 cents.

I didn't like that form. Still love Decade.. just wish they'd have spent two more minutes trying to come up with a better Final Form.

Im kinda leaning towards Super TaToBa being the current ultimate form for OOO's since they seem to be making the recent movies actually a part of the story. The reason I say this is because OOO's can no longer turn into PuToTyra because there are no more purple medals.

Why does it seem like I'm the only one who loves the designs of any Complete Forms?

You aren't. I like both Diend and Decade Complete forms.

i like diend complete a tad more, but thats cause i prefer diend over decade anyway

I agree that post Den-O, most movies are in a separate continuity. However, in recent years Toei is trying to mesh all universe together in 1 single continuity. So it's safe to say, these movie forms are chronologically correct and not a one-off.

Fixed, I kind of agree with your line up. That's kinda how my SHF are being displayed right now since I only collect first and final form riders.

http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/...Toku/Blame.jpg

I just don't like the card faces. DiEnd's Final Form should've played up him being a theif, somehow. Turned the DiEnd Driver into a Rifle, given him a long coat. A smaller helmet. Something.

Between the two, I prefer Diend's, mainly due the fact that the card gives him a set of visible eyes rather than the giant radiator visor.
They're both ugly as sin, but Diend's is better.

They could've done a Cosmic States kind of thing instead. Use the same K-Touch they have already. But when he touches whatever Rider he wants he takes on their Final Form. And when he changes back, an aspect of that final form retains on Decade somehow.

I used to dislike the two, but both have grown on me since. I just wish Diend's had seen a bit more action.

What would be Kamen Rider Double's Cyclone Accel Xtreme form be then? I know they don't make it in the show or movie but its supposedly stronger then regular Xtreme.

Honestly don't know. It all depends on what you consider a Final Form. If you count movies than Accel Extreme, if you don't then Xtreme. I never saw either so... I don't know :lol

In the context of the show Cyclone Accel Extreme is supposed to be his ultimate, final, and most powerful form. Shroud created the driver and memories which resulted in Skull, W, and Accel. And she is the one who explicitly says that CAX would be the ultimate form. That Phillip would have to ditch Shotaro to use it. But really that's just Shroud's predictions and intentions. But then again she designed the system, she would know right?

Since it wasn't really ever seen in show and only appeared in a few games it's hard to say. The only confirmed things about it are what she said. The games (Climax Heroes) show that this form can use the Prism Bicker and Engine Blade simultaneously as well. We won't ever know how powerful it would have been but I imagine right on par with CJX.

I'm sure if that thing ever appeared in the show it wouldn't have worked because of friendship or love or brain patterns or some BS like that.

It's nothing. It doesn't actually exist in the show as anything other than an idea and doesn't count as any kind of form in my book.