Marvel Movieverse, critically bulletproof?
 

I know we have a comics thread, but I thought maybe spreading out discussions of the movies is worth its own thread. If not, feel free to merge.

So AS2 was released in the US and as it did, it critically plummeted. I know on the internet it's cool to not listen to critics, but it's something I pay attention to as a mainstream critical reaction is a good reflection of the social conciousness of the time it was written.

I bring this up, as currently, since the release in the US Amazing Spider-Man 2 has dropped down to an aggregated score of 5.3, marking it the most critically meh'd Spider-Man film across the five films from the last decade or so. Yes, lower than Spider-Man 3. Primary complaints from critics complain that the film is overstuffed, overlong, poorly paced and would have done with cutting out Electro entirely, and focused more on its own story than the sequel.

Personal opinions aside, I still find this amusing as right now Winter Soldier 2 is currently tracking an aggregated score of seven, so although not a critical darling it's currently two points ahead of AS2 and yet primary complaints with Winter Soldier is that the film is overstuffed, overlong, poorly paced and would have done with cutting out Elec- The Winter Soldier entirely, and focused more on its own story than the sequel. So...eh?

I bring this up, because I found similar frustrations with the Avengers in 2012. Basically a Transformers film in Avengers clothing, yet both fans and critics threw unfounded and unnecessary praise at all angles while simultaneously hurling bile at the Transformers franchise like it killed your family.

So I'm just interested as to what is going on with our culture right now, that a film made by a Marvel Studio is able to soak up criticisms and always come out on top, while any licence held by a rival studio is chewed up and spat out the moment a critic gets their hands on it. Because speaking personally, I'd much rather watch the X-Men Trilogy or the Amazing Spider-Man films, than sit through Marvel's Act One again.

I didn't find Avengers overstuffed...I mean, sure the Chitauri could've done more, but they were just cannon fodder for the larger villain of Loki, I mean, yeah Hawkeye didn't do much. I would consider that a flaw, and I had no problems with the pacing, and it had a good sense of humor in my opinion. Unlike Transformers where it's just a bunch of sex jokes and bathroom humor.

I think Avengers is a fantastic film, but not without its flaws.

I never said the Avengers was overstuffed. You misread the post, I was comparing the critical response to Winter Soldier and AS2

Huh...I thought it said that somewhere...I don't know. Maybe I'm just more tired than I thought. :lol

Yeah, I've never seen Winter Soldier or AS2, so I can't speak for those.

Iron Man 2 was alright, though.

Lol that is why you should read a post from start to finish.

I did. :lol I just misread it, accidentally.

See I personally agree with Locke about the Avengers. It's an okay film but it doesn't deserve the praise it gets, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I do think that ASM2 was also a bit naff. Not because of too many villains, just personally felt that the writing was a bit poor and where the first film for me nailed the true feeling of a Spider-Man story, this one was a mess tonally.

I can see where your coming from, especially with the comparisons to key complaints with winter solider, but for me winter solider was just a better, tighter film. That said, from conversations with people at work, ASM seems to be hitting all the right notes with the mass public, much in the same way the Transformers films have been shot down by critics to go on to make billions. Then again these are critics, and Orci and Kurtzman seem to now how to make a mass audience leave their brains and just go ooooh purdy, whilst seamlessly disappointing every critic in the room.

It used to be that Marvel was better at Live-Action films, DC was better at animation, and everyone knew their place. But then the Dark Knight trilogy (Despite them saying his name wrong. It's not Ra's! it's freaking REASH! .... ahem) came along. I enjoyed Superman Returns more than Avengers. Not that Avengers is a bad movie, by any means. And I have hopes for Ant Man. And Days of Future Past.
But the one thing that'll always remain true is DC is better at animation. Ignoring the trainwreck that is TTG, because I hate that show and refuse to watch it on the premise I want Season 3 of Young Justice and Season 2 of Green Lantern, DC animation is solid. While Marvel gives us whatever the hell Agents of SMASH is supposed to be.

This seems appropriate for the thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy7Sli_O14E

Poor spiderman.

At the end of the day, it's lucky that we - The Audience - are those that pay the checks, because if the movie industry shaped itself to satisfy the mainstream critics it would collapse.

And yet, Fox and Sony refuse to come to some sort of legal agreement with Marvel Studios to give us the Avengers movie we all want.

Seriously, what the hell? A movie featuring the Avengers with a full comic-book roster and the X-Men all on one screen and fighting a big bad is something that people would pay money to see. What kind of reasoning is there for not trying to come to an agreement about this when it's quite probable that a movie like that would make millions, if not BILLIONS, of dollars?

Because nobody likes to share their billions with others.

It's a shame that the deal to put Oscorp Tower in the Avengers never went through, it would have been a nice starting point for company interaction.

I think what's keeping the Marvel Movieverse afloat to a certain extent plus keeping crossovers from happening is money. If Fox and Sony give back the rights they'll lose any "Marvel money" they could get with their movies; plus people are afraid to really take chances these days.

Also we all know critics can be bribed and let's face it Disney has the money to burn. If they want to remain a movie powerhouse they will do so since the public consensus is that people remember movies more than any other form of media; even if said movies tend to be crap.

It's how things are these days. As long as people are being told that these movies are good (and to be fair they do tend to be enjoyable) they will print money for Marvel and Disney. 'Nuff said.

I'd argue that yes we as fans of the comics, or even those with a slightly wider knowledge of marvel history want these films, the mass public probably couldn't care less...

Most people don't even know that Disney own marvel or that certain studios own certain bits still. Heck most casual fans will probably stick Batman in the same house. So whilst there's a large number of comic fans, from casual to die hard, that do want it, there's a far larger number that it wouldn't make or break the films for. Sony, for example, then can keep churning out Spideys to cash in. Why make a simple 10 million (just figuratively, I know it'd be a lot more if/when they do) selling them back,when you can churn out 3+ films that can easily make over that on their own?

On the other hand a full buy back isn't necessary, but how do you begin to put a price on loaning out a character? If Sony know people want an Avengers with Spidey in it then they're gonna keep raising the price, and let's face it both companies care about the money the most at the end of the day.

Sucks, I'd love to see Spider-man having a bit of banter with the rest of the Avengers cast, but oh well =\

I need to stop asking these kinds of questions. The answers make me sad more often than not. :(

How was the movie by the way?

I totally didn't think about Disney lining critics pockets. It all makes sense.

Speaking more seriously though, it's difficult, in my mind, to work out where the lines are drawn between fan appreciation and Mr Joe Average's expectations. Because when I've actually sat down a Avengers Film lover - but not a comics fan - and queried them on why they love the film so much, they told me, "Because look at how many superheroes are in THE SAME FILM!" So perhaps there is more of a market for all this crossover business, than just appealing to a few nerds with comics neatly labeller away in filing cabinets.

Personally though, I think Marvel Studios do some of the least interesting things with superheroes overall, so I'm glad Sony and Fox are clinging on to their properties for dear life.

By that logic Super Hero Taisen would be the best Super hero movie ever, due to the sheer amount of suits and characters they cram into an hour and a half.

I think the reason why critics don't like ASM 2 is because they didn't like the first one. I was watching a movie critic talk about amazing spiderman in one of his random videoes and he outright called ASM 2 trash, months before the movie came out, without even seeing the film, just due to how bad he illogical he thought the first one was.

I don't necessarily know why Marvel has this low amount of criticism, as their movies are weaved together a lot tighter, both in movie universe and story, causing more potential problems from critics to occur. But somehow, they just don't.

IMO, Marvel Studios is riding the George Lucas wave. They basically flipped the bird to the movie industry and made the movies the way they wanted to, like Lucas with the first Star Wars trilogy. That is where a lot of the critical leniency is coming from. However, I think that the shine will eventually fade, and I think Guardians could be that first miss.

Comparing ASM with Cap was something I did, and I personally enjoyed Cap more. Now there is personal bias due to Winter Soldier being a personal favorite, but I thought the movie had a better pace to it. ASM felt too long, and there were moments in the theater where I was checking my watch to see the time. I think the movie would have been tighter if they had just cut out the parts with Peter's parents, which would have also given more time to Electro and Osborne.

As for Fox and Sony, it doesn't make any sense as to why they don't swallow their pride and cooperates with Marvel Studios/Disney. Unless I'm missing something, they are already licensing the properties, so Marvel is still getting a cut. They don't even need to do crossover movies every year, but just that connected universe where Iron Man or Cap could be in Spiderman 3 would bring in even more money. The issues are already becoming apparent since the new X-Men movie will have Quicksilver/Scarlet Witch and they are going to be using them leading into Avengers 2.