Let's Watch Wednesdays Week 1 Kamen Rider Den-O 1-3 Discussion
 

Sure I'll watch it again.

Let's ride the Denliner! ... again... hopefully it'll fare better this time.

1: This is an excellent debut episode, it was fun, had good action and introduced the core concepts without feeling exposition heavy.
Characters wise I really like Ryutaro and Hana, as such Momotaros victimizing him in this episode and next ones really annoy me.

But it is a very good episode.

2: The story was simple but well done, Ryotaro changing the past for better shows how much of a cool guy he is, and counter-trolling Momo at the end was awesome. :lol

I like the idea of traveliing to their most important memories, it allows the time travel memory aspect to be present in all arcs but keeps it to a small timeframe, so they can continue to use the same locations and sets.

3: Never cared much for this episode, it had Momo unwillingly entering a theft plan and stuff

The first three episodes of this show were probably the weirdest for me, because when I first tried watching it, I was not into them.

There's some ridiculousness to be had in that damage caused in the past somehow creates mass destruction in the future. As if a building has been standing for years without supports only to collapse at the exact moment Ryoutaro needs convincing. Which even the writers seemed to realise as in later episodes stuff just dissapears. (though sometimes the whole "well okay if that scafolding didn't exist, how did the guy get two stories up.")

There's also a sense that they weren't sure of the tone, like when that lady gets dropped, and the uber-sob story of dead mothers.

And yeah, Momo being a thief just kind of is a weird episode.

The whole thing about time travel is that different properties/franchises set different rules for it. Back to The Future, The Time Machine, Den-O, Quantum Leap. Den-O tried to set down firm rules in the early part of the story but never quite nailed it down as the show went on. Destroying things in the past in essence steals all of the time that would've elapsed between that moment in the past and the moment in the present the Imagin came from. It ruins everything that came between.

Look at it this way and hopefully it won't induce headaches. Time progressed normally as it was intended, until a moment in the future where an Imagin forces it's way to the past. Up to this point history has unfolded naturally. Now they've inserted themselves into a past event to wreak havoc thereby altering the history that proceeds from the event. So those ripple effects are felt at the exact moment the Imagin left in the present. Hence why the buildings and such disappear. The explosions thing is just for dramatic effect as they clearly let go of that later. But the basic premise for why things are destroyed/disappear is the same.

It's a good series

Den-O was sure great when the show traveled into the future :lol.

There's your Den-O tagline folks. "Kamen Rider Den-O - Hopefully it won't induce Headaches!"

I'm running away laughing now :lol

...Man, this wonderful time tripping series. How I adored and cherished Den-O so much that I never wanted the climax to end. Will always love Ryutaros as my favorite Imagin though.

Fun to see this again. First couple are weird since its just Momo and it seems like there is a different voice when he is possessing Momo sometimes.

Other than that I have missed this show, and if I make it the whole time without buying a Den-O belt finally, I will laugh. :lol

Problem with Den-O is, while most time travel stories have linear cause and effect, even if time travel shouldn't be linear, Den-O only picks convenient cause and effect in these episodes. Like, why is destruction happening in the past and present at the same time?

Then again, the show later introduces it's own explanation for time travel, which works way better than this.

It feels good to see this all again but this time I actually have my den-o belt

I think you're arguing just to argue at this point. But on the chance you're not.

Allow me to school.

*Cracks knuckles*

The reason that destruction happens in the present at the same time it happens in the past is because when you change something in the past it affects the present. Marty allowed Old Biff to give Young Biff the Gray's Sports Almanac and look what happened to 1985. Same thing applies here. Because the Imagin hadn't gone into the past yet do to the damage there was nothing destroyed in modern day Japan. But when he went back through the Time Portal and began wrecking the past, it had to change in the future.

That and it's a show where young men and women use belts to transform into Fruit Samurai, Astronauts with Fast Food Robots, and Vampire Bats. So I don't think reality applies.

Just saying.

Basically den-o follows the one doctor who rule, wibbly wobbly timey wimey.

It really is akin to Doctor Who. Time is happening relative to the Doctor's position in it. Regardless of what he's doing the present marches onward around him. But if something happens in the past that's tied to a point in the future/present, it changes. Like Den-O here, the event tied to the present reshapes the present around it.

The Doctor is also not supposed to be able to travel within his own timeline and effect it but that rule kind of got thrown out in Day of The Doctor. Similarly we know later in Den-O that Singular Points can't be altered or at least they aren't supposed to be able to be. But as we know that too changes later.

Short hand: it all get sort of timey wimey.

Stuff.

I watched the first episode of Den-O a while back and started the second. Maybe I'll use this as an excuse to watch the season..

Den-O was the first series I watched all the way through. It is one of my favorites, mostly because of the design of the riders and the story. I don't really care for any of the spin-offs though. Toei, if you want to bring Den-O back, that's okay...just do it already!

Episode 1 de gozarimasu de-- yeah, not doing that again

I started rewatching Den-O a couple years ago but never finished. I'm glad to have an excuse to go through it again. That said, this is actually the fourth or fifth time I've seen the first episode (I sneaked a few previews back when I was first watching the Heisei shows in order back in '09). I think it still holds up as one of the best pilots in Rider's whole history. You get a strong sense of the main characters, a clear sense of the show's tone, and my favorite first henshin/fight ever (I will never stop loving the accidental swipe of the pass over the belt).

I'll also say this now: Takeru Satoh is, hands down, the best actor we've ever gotten as a main Rider.He plays six characters on this show and they all feel unique and fully realized; he's the Tatiana Maslany of Kamen Rider.

Fixed. :)

I won't be participating in this LWW. Particularlly because I don't want to go into Den-o territory. The Imagin hijinx sound too dumb for me. And yes, I know its more then that and its a Kobyashi show and I liked Ryuki and blah blah blah blah blah.

But, I do remember SPLITLIP saying that "You wouldn't think that they'd rebuild the buildings? Why do they remain destroyed in the present?" and...I have to agree there. I understand people who died in the past suddenly disappearing in the present, but the buildings are a pretty different story.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. The way he effortlessly shifts personas is fantastic. When Takeru Satoh was cast as Kenshin Himura years later, I knew instantly they cast the right person for the role because he's really good a playing a character with personality dichotomy.

Then you quite clearly don't get my point.

:lol

We got a tough guy over here!

So answer me this:

Why then, does a building without supports stand for years, only to collapse in the present? Where are the explosions coming from? We see a truck smash through supports in the past, then cut to the present and see a bridge with missing supports, jagged pieces and all, collapse after it had alread collapsed years ago. We see it collapse twice. How? How did all these buildings maintain for years without any support? They should just dissapear, cease to exist, not collapse twice. What logic is that?

For all your chest-puffing and wanting to one-up me with your interwebs smarts, you seem to have jumped to the (entirely wrong) conclusion that I somehow don't think the past affects the present? For the record, I love BTTF, have watched the movies numerous times. They had the right idea. Den-O does not. That's like if the second pine got run over in the past, then just appeared flattened and dead in the present versus fading away. Or the Twin Pine Mall sign stayed the Twin Pine Mall instead of Lone Pine. How cna these things exist now if they were destroyed long ago? It's simple cause and effect. Doc explained it in BTTF2 on the calkboard. The moment the past was changed, an alternate timeline was created. Either Ryoutaro is part of that timeline, or he's not. Either way, he should have no way of viewing the destruction happen, as he is not in that time period. The buildings would either be fine because he's in the unaltered timeline, or dissapear because they've been smashed for years in the alternate timeline.

Of course events in the past affect the present, but that's just it. The present should only be seeing the effects, not the damage itself. That is in the past. If I went back in time ten years and killed my friend by shooting him in the head, why would he drop dead in the present when he's been dead since 2004? Would he just have never have made it to 2014? He'd dissapear and reappear a rotting corpse in the ditch I left him in.


:lol I love these comments.

"The subject matter is fantastcal and outlandish, therefor I should turn my brain off and accept every stupid thing the show throws at me, because science fiction doesn't deserve continuity or a strong narrative."

"Just sayin'" If you want to complete the tough guy affect, you've gotta lose the "g."

But thanks for blowing up at me in the most condescending way possible and 1. assuming I somehow don't understand that cause and effect is a thing, and 2. utterly failing to make your point regardless.

I love Den-O, and it's later depictions of cause/effect qwuite clearly show that even the writers thought buildings collapsing twice was stupid, since stuff just dissapears in a pop or fade. The building thing makes even LESS sense given Den-O's explanation for time travel, in that the "past" is merely people's memories, and without memories, there is no history. Everyone would remember the buildings collapsing, and reality would alter to fit that memory, thus the buildings simply would not be there.

I never said that. I never said anything like that. And even if I did, I'd still ask what's causing the buildings to collapse in the present?

I am convinced nobody nows what I'm talking about.

So imagine that bridge that the truck smashed through, yeah? In 2000-whatever, it's supports give out and it collapses. The Rubble falls, etc, and eventually it's cleaned up. The bridge is either repaired, or further dismantled, with all the materials being carried off and disposed of or recycled whatever makes you happy. So in 2007, after years of the bridge being gone and being someplace else, albiet in pieces, it reappears with people on it, just to collapse all over again for no reason.

HOW?

I have to agree with Split here. There is no way the buildings would go that long without being repaired. Either they would've been repaired long ago, resulting in nothing happening, or the rubble would've just been carted away, making the buildings just disappear. Anyway, I'm liking this show far more than I thought I would.

It's not about those buildings being destroyed and staying that way for years. I feel like you guys are making an inference there. Time in the present and the altered event in the past happen concurrently. When those buildings and such are destroyed in the past it causes them to be destroyed in the present. Because of the paradox of them having no longer existed for whatever period of time has elapsed, the destruction occurs. Time isn't progressing normally in an instance like this so the rules of such progression can't be applied properly.

Who knew watching den-o would have us discussing the different properties of time travel. Yet I knew it would be coming at some point.

So buildings go kaboom in the past, but the timeline knows the buildings were originally intact, so they don't go kaboom till present day?

I always disliked that kind of time travel.

Same idea as the Golden Disc in Beast Wars right? Blow up a mountain in the past, it immediately looks blown up in the future?

But how?

When does the show state that? Den-O, much like many a Kamen Rider series, demands you accept a certain fictional aspect, without even the slightest attempt at explaining it. Why and how do those events happen concurrently? What sense does that make? How, logically, does that fit with the narrative and universe presented?

There is no answer. The only reason it existed was so that the main character could witness mass destruction in order to take up the mantle of hero.

Except I don't believe you're remembering that episode too well.

When Rampage blows up the mountian, the Disk's image goes static, and the image of the present is shown without the mountain. It doesn't blow up in the present, it simply ceases to be. Because Rampage blew it up. Because Rampage couldn't shoot Megatron's ego, he had to blast something just as big. :lol

The Disk is from the future, and thus, it is affected by past events. It doesn't show those events, merely shows the remnants four million years later. A tree cut down in the past will become a stump, as time has changed to reflect that action. That's how time travel should be done in a show. Basic cause and effect, except the cause is in the past, and the effect is in the future. Even with it's limited visual abilities, the episode managed to somewhat show the future mountain-stump slightly "older" without as visible damage, as erosion (sp? Never had to spell that) and four million years "rounded" it out. It's not a "fresh" crater.

Which of course was the entire turning point of the show, the realization that they posses the ability to alter time. Hell, Megatron nearly destroys the universe by creating a paradox.

Well exactly, how does time decide when the "present" is? Is the past not the present for the time traveller?

The thing is, they did go kaboom in the past. They went kaboom twice.

Episode 2
I always forget that the train battles were a thing. Never really saw the point to them, especially when the train weapons are so damn random.

Man, I love Hana. She was such a fun and awesome character. Rather easy on the eyes, too. Such a pity she leaves the show halfway through.

I liked the story behind the key holder dude. It's not developed a lot, but there's a nice emotional core to it, especially in how Ryotaro resolves it.

Hana was one of the best damn female support characters for a long time. She really was strong useful and drop dead gorgeous. Though Rinko from Wizard gives her a hell of run for it in my book.

The train battles unfortunately were a bit ahead of their time, so much that the technology available never really did them justice. ToQger seems to have picked up that thread in a more appropriate manner.

Episode 3
Never realized this was Sid's actor in these episodes. Not sure if I'd have recognized him if it hadn't been pointed out. Either way, he's doing a smashing job here. Totally crushing it as the weasley busker who's pressing Momotaros into working withh him.

;)

This episode is our first look at the real breakout star of the show: Owner. I love this guy; he's so damn weird but wise at the same time. And he just gets more awesome from here on out.

You know what I'd love to know sometime? What's the story with the Denliner's other passengers? Who are these other people and where are they from and where are they going? Never really thought much about it before, but it's kind of bugging me now.

It's kind of fun seeing Satoh actually voice possessed Ryotaro in this episode. I'm guessing that was the original plan, but the big name voice actors and overall popularity of the Taros likely led to that being dropped.

Yeah, The Owner is great. He walks the fine line of funny creepy and scary creepy like an expert tightrope walker.

Oh, Den-O, I love you so. Ryotaro may not be one of my favorite characters (as just himself - his simpering gets old after a while) but the Imagin and the rest of the cast more than make up for him. The series also has an amazing theme song, a great concept, and some outstanding sound design (virtually all of the sounds on my phone are Den-O SFX). I'm giddy with the opportunity to experience it all again!

(Also, lots of cute ladies this series.)

(Also, also, I loves me some Momotaros.)

I think I will actually stick with this one unlike magiranger. watching this again after so long is gonna be fun. watching this again and realizing that that guy is Sid was awesome. ah Hanna, the only human kamen rider figuarts.

Okay, finally downloaded and watched them.
When I first watched Den-O and on this rewatch, I still have the same problem with Satoh's unpossessed Ryotaro. The wimpy voice is too much. If you gave me a clip of just that without any scenes of him acting while possessed, I'd call him awful. I much prefer when he gets the stronger demeanor while still keeping the "Wimpy" attitude so he doesn't sound awful.

Anyway, for the episodes themselves, there isn't much for me to say. They had decent comedy and decent action. I particularly enjoyed the repetitive slashing against the chameleon Imagin in episode 3. It really projected Momo's wild and brutish fighting style by having him just wail on the monster.
For the fights, they're nice, but the CG was a bit subpar. I think they needed to put a little more work into it.

I also miss Hana in the later episodes/movies. I had forgotten how much fun she was. Owner is always good, too. Able to give a dramatic and foreboding scene and then follow it up with his sillyness a minute later, which makes it fun.
I'm also curious about the other passengers on the Den-Liner. I'd love to know more about them.

Well, not much more to say than hearing Momo possessed Ryotaro with normal Ryotaro was weird, and episode 2 got me to cry.

Don't they fix the possessed voice later in the show?

What do you mean fix? Even in episode 1 and 2 they had Momo-Ryo speak with Momo's voice. So far, only 3 has used M.Ryo with normal Ryo's voice.

I always assumed that Satoh doing all the voices outside of suit was the original intention, but the producers changed their mind early on.