Kamen Rider Zi-O Episode 7- "Magic Showtime 2018!" Discussion
 

Sougo and the team visit a magic show, and the strange abilities demonstrated make him suspect Another Rider may be responsible...

I liked this one. I feel like I'm starting to get a better handle on the characters and how they bounce off of each other. A lot more Woz this time, too, which again helped him feel a bit more fleshed out.

What I really liked was that the Another Rider this time isn't a rampaging monster and really didn't act aggressively until pushed. He was just a normal dude using Wizard's powers for minor fame and glory to impress Minase Yashiro (a goal I can totally understand and support 100% - man, it is nice to see her in something again). It's a god way to expose some of the major faultlines that exist between Sougo and Geiz's approaches to Kamen Riding.

As a minor sidenote, my least favorite character on the show is now officially Geiz's tactical muffler. It was kinda funny the first time he wore it with a different outfit but I am completely over that ugly thing now. It is the Onari of Kamen Rider Zi-O.

I now kinda want .5 episode devoted to his muffler and why he always wears it.

Hey everyone, guess what time it is!

https://i.imgur.com/8yUH0Tph.jpg

Time for some of us to feel really old... :(

Fortunately this episode was good enough to distract me from any existential crises. Less fortunately, I can't think of too much to say about it beyond that.

I appreciate how decompressed this episode was, and the characters really are getting better each week, with even Woz getting something to do this time that goes beyond just shilling for Zi-O or advancing the plot. But that same slower pace that allows for more character moments also leaves the plot feeling a bit on the anemic side. The Victim of the Week was nicely fleshed out, but nothing long-term happened, and since this is VERY distinctly part one of two, it's hard to comment on it as its own thing since it's inherently all setup and no payoff.

Now, of course, the funny thing about that last paragraph is that it's a perfect description of a lot of episodes of Wizard. So, unintentionally or not, they've once again nailed the feeling of the series they're paying tribute to. :lol

Still watching the ep now, but right at the beginning love the concept it establishes about "The power of friendship." Especially coming right off of the Fourze/Faiz story.

Though we're also seeing that Sougo is likely negatively impacted by Geiz's friendship, unless Sougo's mellow aspect can make Geiz chill later.
Tsukuyomi is coming off a bit like an apologist not seeing the similarity between Geiz and how Oma Zi-O acts, but interesting how Woz sees it and is now pushing for Geiz and Sougo to become friends because of how he thinks Sougo needs Geiz's influence.

Loved seeing more of Woz's black butler aspects coming out more too. Really looking forward to how his character develops, and liking how the show is progressing on the character aspects to how it interacts with the story they are dealing with. Including how they are dealing with "Another Riders" in a different than formula way.

Liked the Minority Report influences in this episode a bit, and liked how it tried to show prejudice and pre-judgement. Which is interesting in connotations of Wizard. Which then switched to a power corruption story. But Sougo is right, Geiz is taking it too far. Even factoring in his PTSD from the future, he's still a bit too aggressive. Which is interesting in how that's going to impact character development. Which is interesting in how Tsukuyomi makes excuses for it. Makes me a little disappointed in her character(though it is in character) as I'd expect a little more empathy from her in the fact they did attack first with no known victims yet. If Geiz and her had listened to Sougo, they could have resolved the whole thing peacefully. Which okay would have made a boring episode, but it does show an interesting aspect that aggressiveness isn't always the answer and makes bigger problems.

Though Woz is getting more interesting, and his phrasing is interesting too. "Young Tsukuyomi." Like there's an older one. The way he talks to Geiz suggests similar in that regard. Besides them having history, it also alludes to Woz may know an older Geiz.
Some interesting foreshadowing all around. Like not everything in the timeline is as cut and dry as they want the main trio to think. Seems like there's more to the Oma Zi-O faction than we've seen yet. At least likely in Tsukuyomi's case. Geiz still seems open ended, raising the question if his influence impacts Zi-O/Sougo, and why it leaves a lasting impression. Almost seems to allude to something like Geiz gets severely injured in the future because of Sougo's relaxed attitude. Which forces Sougo to adopt more of Geiz's ways to prevent that from happening again. Which is what creates Oma Zi-O.

But then again, this show is also all about changing time, so we might get a lot of false starts storylines that the timeline diverges out of. The premise is entirely about changing the timeline afterall.

The 7.5 was great too. Loved how they're diving into some of these topics about behind the scenes stuff for the 4th wall breaks and to also help get kids into looking at how shows are made.

That "young tsukuyomi" line though really sticks out. It's such a small thing, but it really does imply there's an older one then. And if there is, what did she become? where is she now? The VCR bit mixed with the young Tsukuyomi remark seems to allude to some interesting future developments.

You've gotta stop taking subtitles at face value like this. "Young Tsukuyomi" is just how Over-Time chose to translate "Tsukuyomi-kun." It's not a real descriptor of age or anything, as an honorific it only really reflects that the speaker is older or of a higher status than the person they're addressing. It's nothing to speculate about.

Then blame them for putting it in.

But if it's uncommon for Woz to refer to her like that, or use a term of endearment like that even playfully/teasingly, it's still a pertinent character detail. Since he doesn't use it elsewhere. It'd be a character building aspect with connotations over wide factors and intent that can range a wide area. And as the episode showed with Geiz and Woz having history, implies Tsukuyomi and Woz might too in many ways. As an honorific, -kun is often used more as a familiarity term too in rider shows. That's been a constant across many Rider shows where they either use it as a term of endearment or for belittling, and with how Woz's opening narration was very pointed about how they are from the same time period at the beginning, that pushes the use to be a mix of belittlement/endearment to suggest history with, and with Woz, history with sometimes means more than history with that current one, as we see with Sougo. With Sougo he uses more formal terms(but Woz also has respect for Sougo and what he becomes, and wants to stay in the good graces of his soon to be king, which again goes back to that kind of "black butler" aspect, and how Woz might be more informal/playful with older Sougo that became Oma Zi-O, but younger doesn't have that bond yet), but it'd make sense he'd have a more playful teasing aspect to Geiz and Tsukuyomi, both because of their interactions in their own time period, and because Woz knows more than he often says, as each episode implies in both the opening and closing. Which would mean he also does know what becomes of Geiz and Tsukuyomi too later in the timeline before it changes, if it changes. So to Woz, there would be a distinction of "older" and "younger" because he knows the full timeline as is before it changes.

So actually yeah, it is something to speculate about. Especially in conjunction with the VCR conversation at the beginning. How that almost looked a mess with a ride watch type looking prototype device in it.(Though not really, seems more like a soft allusion using it as a quick blink and you miss it early detail that may not have much relevance but could, especially in conjunction with the 7.5 that was all about what ends up on the cutting room floor and what's kept.) :P

Add that in with companionship remarks by Woz at the end, and the implications still suggest something to speculate about. I also said "if" there is an older Tsukuyomi. I didn't say there was. We honestly don't know. We do know that Woz wants Sougo to act more like Geiz though. We also don't know what made Sougo become Oma Zi-O. Which does seem to imply this timeline of interactions is a constant. Otherwise Woz would be more adamant about removing Tsukuyomi and Geiz from interfering and changing time.

Instead, he already knew they would interfere as the first episode points out with Woz's warning. Which means historically he already knows they tried to interfere and it's part of the normal timeline for Oma Zi-O's rise. So that does imply there might be older ones of them too if they never left Sougo's side in trying to stop him from becoming Oma Zi-O, or being what set him on that path. Which now from this episode is looking more like something happening to Geiz is why. All the information to substantiate that is in the character interactions and foreshadowing already revealed in show. So there likely are older versions of Tsukuyomi and maybe Geiz if their previous timeline iterations lived as long as Oma Zi-O did since they were already part of the timeline for his rise. Now the show question is if this version of the "time loop" they can change that outcome, and how. (Which based on the upcoming forms, seems likely in Q2 sometime.) Based on what we've seen of Sougo's personality though and his growing really fond of her, I'm willing to bet if there is an 'older' Tsukuyomi, that's she's well protected or secure. Especially if something to do with Geiz is what set Oma Zi-O on the path to rising.

But I do agree OT has had some rather weird subbing practices occasionally. Like changing the english word "memo" to "note". But the "-Kun" detail is not one to get that angry about. It still is a character relevant/character building detail to take notice of and what the implications can mean.

How about not trying to lecture me and making yourself look foolish for other reasons though. Cause I can assure you, trying to lecture me is only going to make yourself look bad.

Everything I've pointed out is in the details of the episodes as is already and based on displayed character traits and personality. And as they say, the devil is in the details. This show is very detail oriented. Now any future events is pure speculation since we don't know yet what caused Oma Zi-O to rise, but the details on the distinction for Woz still pan true for what he already knows of the timeline. Because unlike the audience, Woz does know. Including what happened to older Geiz and Tsukuyomi. Same as he knows what did originally make younger Sougo become Oma Zi-O.

Referring to somebody as "young x" isn't particularly uncommon even without the knowledge that it's only a translation. You just took it too literally.

It's not particularly uncommon or noteworthy. He's been referring to the two of them with the "-kun" suffix this whole time. He first refers to them by name, as such, in episode 2. The conversation between Geiz and Woz is informative of their past relationship, but forms of address like that are weak speculation fodder. It's old news for one, and there's no basis for comparison because he hasn't addressed anybody aside from them and Sougo (who is a special case for obvious reasons). And even putting that aside, he doesn't need a particularly special reason to address somebody as "kun," it's an entirely commonplace piece of the Japanese language, and it fits with Woz's character and manner of speech.

lmao

You are trying to apply English thinking to Japanese language. That is not how any of that works. If you pay attention the term is a common horificic and it's ridiculous to read too much of it. I would say it would like trying to read a deep meaning behind one character calling another "miss." Sure, it means something, but nothing of real significance. It's a highly informal honorific, which given that she's a rebel with no status and he's a high servant of the king is not at all surprising. It's exactly how you'd expect him to address her.

Another small detail I liked in this episode was the beginning with the Uncle at 9 to 5. His comments about fixing broken things and sometimes clocks. Then we get the rest of the episode, and see elements of how Geiz and Tsukuyomi are broken in how they reacted to the Another Rider. Which then comes back to how they now live there.

Which seems rather perfect to hint at that with Wizard considering his story and origin basis.

*Edit* Another interesting detail this episode brought up that seems like a really big deal is that apparently Another Riders can revert to human even while the Another Rider watch is still active in them. We haven't seen that before. Seems like what could become a really important detail to not bring up. Another Riders can apparently still maintain a human identity and don't always become mindless like Another Build did.


Or maybe we'll see. Because in previous rider shows, like I've said, they use it usually only in terms of endearment (Faiz with Tak-Kun as a teasing nickname, and others that have done similar) Or in terms of belittlement. (Also easy example with Faiz in how Takumi took offense to the nickname as have others in other media that used kun unless they were crushing on the person that said it or good friends with. But Faiz seems like a poignant example to reference considering this episode is right after the Fourze/Faiz episodes.)

So the implications are still there. And actually no, I'm not applying english to this, I'm applying common uses from other media(other japanese live media or anime) as well that uses it. Except in terms of an elder(Teacher or parent or other older similar forms of authority, though not as common because it usually carries connotations of familiarity or condescension), it's more often used as belittlement or endearment. With usually an emphasis on the person having it said to them should take offense as if being talked down to depending on the dynamic and closeness of the relationship/friendship. And Woz made it a big point that they are from the same time period at the beginning. Same as he made it a point not to talk down to Geiz as much but had pointed jabs in other ways(which goes to also how he wanted to get Geiz to help influence Sougo, so Woz 'needed something' from him, where Tsukuyomi displayed empathy, granted flawed empathy at the time considering what she tried to rationalize). So he is intentionally goading them and prodding them.

But if you also look at the other points that are all in show story and details, I also substantiated why that choice was seemingly intentional and character defining. Especially since Woz doesn't use it in his narrations either when referencing them, which means it was intentionally pointed in direct conversation as a belittlement remark. Now whether "young" was an appropriate translation is a good question, but "little" may have been too pointed for belittlement in that scene as yet, and to convey it to the audience, the basic suffix adding on doesn't seem accurate either in this case because the talking down aspect seemed more emphatic(and literal visually from positioning). But Woz was indeed intentionally talking down to her(with an emphasis of calling her naive without calling her naive directly, implying something she's going to learn or grow out of later). Which goes back to character motivations, their history as he revealed with the Geiz interaction, and how he knows more of the timeline than he lets on as he lets the audience know at the beginning and end of every episode. Which also goes back to that "Sebastian to Sougo's Ciel" aspect of Woz's current character arc.

So the rest of how I substantiated that still stands. Woz does know what will happen to them or in his view has happened to older them. Same as he knows how younger Sougo's life is supposed to unfold with them in it too, as he works for older Sougo. We've already had other episodes establish this. Literally episode 1 with how Woz already knew Geiz was stalking Sougo and how it was supposed to happen because from Woz's view, it already has happened.

But please, do go on trying to lecture me about "English thinking" and making yourself look bad. I'm rather used to it from arrogant "fanboys" and how often the shows themselves prove them wrong. :p It's eye roll inducing on my side for various reasons. This episode was really loaded with side details and character building using a wide array of film/story techniques to do so without directly saying it to the audience through heavy handed exposition. Same as the previous episodes did this too. But again, heavy handed exposition is needed for those that are too dense and oblivious to it, which this episode foreshadowed is coming.

Though it is funny you bring up "english thinking" on the Wizard episodes. Considering Wizard was heavily steeped in "English speaking" tropes. Down to even some character names like 'Rinka Daimon' or Diamond Ring, alongside other influences Wizard's show had. ;)

This wasn't a bad episode. Zi-O is slowly improving through each episode and the character development between Sougo and Geiz was needed. Also, Woz is beginning to develop more as well, hinting that he may or may not agree with the new path that Sougo is paving for himself. It's possible that this is the writer paving a way for Woz to becoming Kamen Rider Woz. Maybe as a way to push Sougo into becoming Oma-Zio? We'll see what the future episodes show.

Also, Librarian, barnstenchfartface and catwhowalks are just trying to explain that maybe your theory is incorrect, they're not lecturing you. The '-kun' honorific is very commonly used to refer to someone who is younger or of lower status. It really isn't that deep. However, we're only 7 episodes into the series so it's possible your theory could be right, if proven true. You don't need to be this aggressive/standoffish to support your theory. And ironically and hypocritically, you're coming off as a arrogant fanboy with how you're acting. It's rude to imply that those two or any who think or perceive things like them are (in your words) "too dense and oblivious" just because you perceived something that may or may not have a deeper meaning.

Wizard was the first Kamen Rider I watched live, so to speak. Sure, it has it's faults, but I love it. And this episode, just recapturing that feel, made it "magic" to me. The return of the old two-part structure, all the spells (I loved how they kept Haruto's favourite tactic, 'spamming DEFEND until you think of a plan'), and it's nice to see how the Another Rider this time is a smart, rational enough person to be able to lie low for... 6 years?

Wow, I feel old.

And this episode also has good character development. From our three factions meeting up at once for the first time, to Geiz and Zi-O obviously heading towards the lesson of "Sometimes different methods can work, and that's okay", to Sougo being really chill around Woz. Like, weirdly chill.

Wizard is an easy way to my heart, and this one's winning. Now, give me mayonnaise while I wait for next week.

((Also, Librarian, as usually, stop treating the wildest theories I've ever heard as facts and pretending people are too "stupid" if they don't agree with you. You're not from the future, you're not a prophet, right now, you're just being a rude nuisance.))

Unless librarian is Japanese, he has no perspective on how it should be used and I'm pretty sure he isn't because his Takumi example is wrong to me. Takumi just didn't like people getting close to him. It wasn't an insult to him. He pushed people away for most of the season. Keitaro is the kindest person on Faiz and he clearly liked Takumi or he would have sneezed around him. If you want to see examples of insults in Faiz then go read most of the bartender lady's subbed dialogue where she puts almost everyone down.

It was a pretty good Rider episode in general, the drama was good and we got some good character moments from the main cast. Not a great Wizard tribute on the other hand, but hopefully the next episode will deliver with Beast making a return.

7.5 was boring for the most part (kind of cool to see cut scenes) but the ending made up for it. Pure comedy genius.

Holy shit, how can it be when someone is corrected that they manage to come back with an even more pompous, know-it-all attitude?

Zi-O's own plot is starting to be a bit more intriguing to me thanks to Still-The-Best-Character Woz -- not only are we seeing a couple more layers to him than enthused loyalist, but that scene with him and Geiz implies they have a lot more backstory with each other. I initially thought that due to being an Anniversary season it wouldn't be delved into too much; that these characters just have Time Travel and Belts and the Drive/Ghost Ridewatches and know each other just because, but it seems there's more to it. Looking forward to that now. It certainly helps that the intro implies some sort of link between Tsukiyomi and the Time Jackers...

Buuuut where this season is ultimately falling down for me is the tributes. I was willing to look past Build's due to that being hashed together with the intro episode; that being just the first tribute; and later finding out that they didn't know how Build was going to end so they had no idea what to do. But these tributes have honestly been a complete travesty -- we learn nothing about these past characters or why they're great, the episodes don't nail down anything about what we loved about these series whether narrative or thematic or in leitmotif; we don't even get to see the Riders half the time! Fourze and Faiz basically got cameos, and now Wizard gets a flashback! I'm glad that next episode apparently at least has Beast getting in on the action, but this is kind of depressing. I thought that scene from the second episode with Build and Cross-Z lining up in a team-up with Zi-O and Geiz would be a standard for the tribute episodes, but instead we get... basically nothing.

I'm really sorry to come across as so annoyed, but Zi-O really, really feels like it does not get any of these seasons or what makes them so great or what was unique about them. Swap out magic for Samurais or Detectives and this episode could quite literally have been done with any rider.

I agree and disagree.
Fourze had the best tribute thus far helping give us a view of Fourze's world presently and the friendship themes of its seasons.

But that's all the good I have to say about the tributes. Beast's "hennnnnn." was cool to see but without Haruto I was prepared to be disappointed. The problem is they never really integrate the flavour of the show into the main plot which Gokaiger always did, albeit overtly.

And that's what I wanted out of Zi-0, to be the Gokaiger of Kamen Rider.
Not Decade II.

Kinda do in their case.

And that's by text book on the honorific, in practice, if you pay attention to wide media in Japan. It is indeed used as I said more by familiarity and usually causes offense if you randomly use it on someone, or you'll be viewed as slightly condescending or trying to be overtly familiar. Same as the more cutesy upbeat -chan suffix. Though that is a more direct familiarity or cheerful usage for endearment, usually not with condescension tones, though can depending on how it's used. That one's more tone and what's being said based. Whereas -kun is more belittling direct because of how it directly says "below the speaker"(either by age, experience, or position, but usually more often refers to age/experience but is a different acceptance between friends/normal everyday interactions due to familiarity of who it is being said to, in which case it's used as a "fondness" remark). Not much different than similar old people phrases when they talk down to someone below their age, unless they are familiar with the person, it's viewed as disparaging/patronizing.

The same instance here with how Woz is using it on Tsukuyomi. He's directly calling her "Young and naive" without saying it word for word, but is implying that "she's not as learned in these matters as he but she will be over time". Visually, this is also heightened by positioning to carry the dialogue more directly. Which is a universally common film technique. (I also gave media references that correspond to this, and can give more. But like I said, Faiz seemed rather poignant to bring up, because it was a very big deal in Faiz that Takumi hated being called Tak-kun, and this is right after the Faiz episodes. But literally every anime and live show of the last 20+ years, if you pay attention, it's used more by familiarity and less as a granted, usually only those that are at minimum friends, or some other kind of direct interaction relationship, sometimes a crush. Rarely to never a full stranger unless it's to belittle or patronize.)

It's the difference in learning from a text book and paying attention to native speakers(or paying attention wrong). All languages have words like that. Like there's a spanish word that by textbook isn't that big of a deal, but in practice, it's actually a native language slang term the text book teachings wouldn't cover. German and other languages have these too. Same as English has those to those learning it by textbook over native speaker practice. If you take a conversational class with a native speaking teacher, they'll even tell you this. It was one of the things my teacher covered within the first couple of weeks. So I'm going to take his word as a native Japanese speaker over some random person from the internet any day. (I took Conversational Modern Japanese, but dropped it before learning all the katakana and Kanji. One of the lesson plans covered was the various suffix. I actually do complain about how bad subs are quite often, but on this one, I actually have to side with the subbers on. For intent and detail usage, the subbers were right on word choice. Though I do still giggle about how they changed "memo" to "note". But that was more them screwing around likely. Self-taught will also miss this detail normally unless they are observant to conversational nuance.)

So my comment on their arrogance was in the assumption they think I don't know anything about the language. Which they would be surprised about because of my line of work and how long I've been doing my line of work. So yeah, it gets very old getting "lectured" by others when I'm well aware of something. It's like how "mansplaining" is really annoying. Though it's especially annoying when it's blatantly wrong and perpetuating ignorance. And they're ignoring visual evidence of such right in front of them in the scene construction/positioning itself as well as the surrounding details.

So yeah, I think hitting their arrogance & ignorance back "aggressively" is appropriate(especially considering the opening remark on their part was condemnation using their own ignorance). These are the kind of fans that'd blatantly argue with writers or producers over details they had put into a show. If they were offering something factual or contributing then sure I'd thank them. Instead they're arguing ignorance. They are either ignorant on conversational Japanese, or are blatantly trying to hide a detail by butchering language usage and nuance. So out of the options, it's either they're ignorant and trying to act smart or wanting people to not notice what's blatantly there. Either one isn't a troll type I feel like putting up with. We have enough ignorance in the fandom that thinks things are true that blatantly aren't. If they want to take it up with someone, then they should aim their complaints at the subbers, but in this instance, the sub group is correct in their assessment, so I don't see that going over well for them either.

Watch any anime or live show, and you'll notice this on the suffix too. It's very rarely used on non-familiar people, and when it is, it's usually eye roll inducing in the body language of the person it's being said to. More often, to non-familiar people, the suffix is dropped. Or the proper suffix is used for respectfulness(-san), like how in english generally we used to use "sir" or "ma'am". Except in rare occasions of elders and children, but even then it's patronizing technically. A nicety form to try and invoke friendly familiarity, but still.

So what I said about the scene still stands. -Kun was used deliberately there for an emphatic point. To disregard that, is to disregard a detail the show itself is trying to hit you over the head with blatantly. Especially with Woz's deliberate positioning in the scene to say the line. Which is to deliberately carry the point even more emphatically. It's a universal film technique used as such, one of the most basic and obvious. So saying to "ignore it" is to deliberately miss a point the show is trying to make. Which as we've seen time and time again, the show will spell out directly for the viewer later anyway(in this instance, it stalled that by having her sleep through Woz's help). But here is indeed an early hint of it intentionally. Which makes sense why the subbers chose "young". It's not as patronizing as "little" but gets the emphatic nature across that's intended more than using -kun because of how oblivious foreign language viewers are to details. Trying to argue otherwise is to deliberately force yourself into ignorance of the scene itself. Especially since Woz doesn't use that to refer to Tsukuyomi any other time. So it was indeed to prod/goad her, like how he was teasing Geiz too in the episode.

This is actually the least self aware thing I've seen all day. Please, dude, stop.

Mansplaining Set to Maximum
 

You know, endless walls of text I haven't been reading aside, I'm still not convinced that you do. The certainty to which you adhered to the specific "young Tsukuyomi" reading as if it was a completely literal descriptor in your original post made it seem like you didn't actually catch that he didn't actually say that.

And I'm still unsure that you're actually a master of the Japanese language arts, no detail escaping your notice, given how much significance you give to the fact that you claim this was the first and only time Woz referred to her in this way, for a specific situational purpose, which is why we should all stop to consider the major ramifications of this very deliberate scene. The only problem being that he calls her that five minutes into this episode, and he also calls her that in episode 2.* So maybe you just held off on this super important major character analysis for five episodes just for fun, or maybe you just haven't been paying enough attention. Which is okay. Foreign fanboys are notoriously oblivious to detail.

*admittedly, not to her directly, but I'd say that's easily another flaw in your argument, though I brought it up before. There's no basis for comparison. This was the first time he called her "Tsukuyomi-kun" to her face, but it's also literally the first time he calls her anything to her face. You're at best trying to build significance out of the rarity of something that just happened for the first time, and that's not how that works

Honestly, at this point I've completely lost track of what your argument is even supposed to be beyond trying to save face. Just trying to spin things really hard so that your original idea that calling a young person young is only and directly because they know their older self from the future makes any sense to anybody, I guess. It is a time travel series, so it may as well, but I don't think any more long winded paragraphs are gonna help convince anybody that one suffix is really as meaningful as you think it is.

In any case, I realize this post probably comes across as more condescending and aggressive than it warrants, but, my dude, yikes.