Kamen Rider Saber Episode 16- "A Ray Of Light That Saves The World!" Discussion
 

Touma is confronted by another member of the Sword of Logos with strange new powers.

I was afraid something bad's about to go down.

I think I'm just skip this series until things settle.

I must have missed the part in the rumor thread where it was stated that Saikou would TURN into the sword because that took me by surprise!

Betrayal by cause of misunderstanding and poor wording in Touma's part. Did Inoue write this?

Anyway, it might seem like Reika is working with Megid, but she actually talking to someone else. It was kinda just pure coincidence that the scene turned to the Megid who just happened to be also watching what's happening.

I was hoping Yuri would be a more stoic character, but the end of this episode, and the next episode having him swap outfits (him crossdressing at one point) leads me to believe he's not. Which is fine, but not what I was hoping for still.

Typical trope calibur 1 and 2 are small fries. Something tells me kento will have. Grand entrance like jin as a villain or a hero in the 20s if they continue the patterns of riders becoming unkillable

not so spectacular episode.
Reika planting the seed of doubt in everyone's mind seem really too easy but okay.
On the one hand Northern base riders are turning against Touma because said Touma thinks someone in the organisation cannot be trusted so he must be demoted for it, but on the other hand it's the Northern base riders who are turning against one of their own member but that's no problem for them. hmmmkay... Weird logic.

I thought I read somewhere that Mei's boss was supposed to be the Southern base leader but after watching this Ep that might have been a mistranslation. Or else she would know what the wonderworld is.

Nothign else to say for the ep. Saikou's entrance isn't that flashy (pun intended) for a debut.
Oh yeah and Legiel acting still continues to be terrible (Im very sorry to the actor really. the other 2 Megido are kinda "okay" but very barely. But Legiel. it doesn't feel natural at all)

I was WORRIED Fukuda was gonna start pulling stupid twists out of his but eventually, this was right around the part Ghost shat the bed and it's looking like Saber might share a similar fate (I'm sorry but Dragonic Knight's debut should have been when Daichi died or have the episode where he revealed the truth be when it debuted) it's not as bad as Ghost YET but you get the idea tbf AFTER Greatful's debut was IMO the point of no return for Ghost and I stopped watching live around Mugen's debut and just binged the show after it finished like it's feeling like Yuri's gonna spend the next few episodes having Touma act like an idiot just because and then something happens (Either Kento returns or when this mini arc is done is when he'll come back it's not like Fukuda doesn't have a track record of putting actually interesting characters(or interesting before he became a total d--khead) on the bus or not using them properly) he either rejoins or get's Rintaro and maybe the others to rejoin him Yuri's defeated or put on a bus until he's needed for the endgame or becomes the bad guy (him getting Kurayami and having a chaos form where he Calibur in a new form uses Saikyo and that sword or Saikyo gets a human form using Kurayami would be cool IMO)also I'm hoping to GOD Kento doesn't rejoin RIGHT AWAY like why not have him be a Winter Soldier type or something

The toy leaks show that there's not much in for January and February, with the latter only having supposedly Saber, Blades, and Yuuri's upgrades. Nothing about Kento. So, that means that if Kento was to reappear he'd be more later or using either Kurayami or Ikazuchi. I suspect the former, since that disappeared just like Sophia.

I think Saber's been better than Ghost so far, and I'm kinda cautiously optimistic on what Q2 can bring. Especially if it means giving less screen time to northern SOL and focus on Touma and Yuuri.

One one hand, it would be great to use the time to give some depth to the other characters, especially Rintarou and Ren, without Touma's "nakama ga" and "Yakusokus". Inversely, giving Touma some time off SOL could give us more into the novelist part of his character and some characterization for him, Yuuri, and Mei. Have Touma deal with the possibility of becoming like Kamijou, betraying the organization for his "selfish" goals. You can already make some parallels since both him and Kamijou used Rekka.

One the other... Well, it could turn into a possible repeat of Zero-One's Q2. Touma "attempts" to save the people being turned into Megids, fumbling around until Yuuri comes in, transforms, and saves them. Much like how Zero-One's Q2 was spent on Aruto fumbling around until Thouser beats the bad guy AND Aruto himself. Only this time, Yuuri is on Touma's side.

Again, I'm cautiously optimistic purely on the basis I wanna give Fukuda a chance. Especially since Sin Specter.

Sooooooooo, those sure is some great friends you have there Touma.....

I think this might be the worst written episode so far overall, which is a shame because it did introduce some interesting new elements.

But, like Ghost, my biggest issue so far is the main rider, the overall character writing is just not good so far, and in a similar vein, I do not really have any idea of the Saber actors ability, but he feels like Ghost 2.0

Now the show is not yet in the bad catagory, it would be quite unfair to throw an entire season into that pile this early on, so I will give it the same benefit of the doubt I gave Ghost.

Even Ghost had elements I liked, and so far that is basically the same.

But dear lord the plot start for this new story arch is just really bad, to the point of I basically have to go " Oh, they are clearly under some sort of mind control ", which I actually hope is true because god damn the speed of which they turn on Touma is just so dumb, at least Blades I can understand, he has actual groundwork put there to make him turn against Touma, the rest ? Not so much.

If anything, characters like Buster have more groundwork for siding with Touma in seeing that something might be wrong here.

Betrayal is one of the least compelling narrative tools to me. It's just so rote and very difficult to make meaningful. Disappointing.

It’s not that out of the blue. This guy on another forum put it succinctly.

Add to that that Reika is now their appointed superior until Sophia returns, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. They're swordsmen, they'll put their responsibilities to the guild above their friendships, especially with how they got betrayed in the past.

I pretty sure Buster's son are really trust Touma and maybe Buster's son can make Buster siding with Touma again.....

Those were my thoughts as well. It could have been better written or the show could have spared another episode or two to build up the doubts that the other 4 swordsmen had about Touma, but I could see the motivations of the 4.

Also poor Touma in the credits all alone in the museum. ��

This is my favourite episode of Saber so far.

Like... okay, I've got some issues here; I think there could have been a lot more conflict and nuance in how the other Riders were reacting to Touma (maybe have one of Ogami or Daishinji try to be the mediating type or reason with him before things get heated), but I'm sure we'll at least see scenes like that soon enough and it works well enough with how Ren of course is someone who flies off the handle and how it's been slowly built up that Rintarou's foundation and main area of trust is the Sword of Logos; so I especially loved here that he just loses his cool and tries to block out any criticism of them as that's hitting at a lot of his stability. His actor is doing so, SO much good work here to make it believable! I think again if it were just Rintarou and Ren it would have made that scene a lot better, it's just that Ogami and Daishinji have previously been portrayed as much wiser mentors before that should be a bit more above attacking Touma this easily.

Otherwise? I'm loving this so, so much more and this is how you do drama -- rather than the main rider getting mopey because of cheap character death it's a very clear set-up of clashing ideologies that fits what we know of the characters; it's clearly leading to interesting places and really feels like the start of a completely new era for the show after setting up and smashing a status quo of Good Riders Vs. Evil Calibur. It's an excellent twist and one I hope the show is as dedicated to as it wants me to believe; I'm now fully invested in this season and understand what it's trying to do! Fukuda's done it again!

To be fair on Ogami and Daishinji, they didn't directly attack Touma for the first parts of the fight. They moreso restraining him and trying to take his sword. It wasn't until Touma was pushed back and went "yakusoku", him referring to Kamijou, that all of them ganged up on him. But they were also the ones to retreat first and grab a hold of Ren who went apeshit.

That's all true, but I feel it could have been handled a little better? Like, when Ren attacked they didn't try to stop him; they got straight in there. I felt it would have been much better if they had been actively trying to stop Ren and Rintarou too. Any other fight where their comrades were going completely rage mode against a shared enemy they'd be trying to get them to calm down or step back.

Oh yeah. I didn't expect Tetsuo to be the one to go "uragirimono tensai" and transform immediately. He was defiant of the idea a while ago.

Also, very interesting info that I heard. Saber's opening foreshadow Touma's betrayal kind of.

"It's okay to be alone because even flowers bloom with out help". That's going to be Touma for a while in Q2, well, save for Yuuri being there.

"Even if you're wearing a mask, it's okay to cry." Is also Touma, being betrayed and all while as a Kamen rider.

今回はまさに「サイコウ」でしたね～

First of all, just to be clear, Takurou Fukuda is not three different people, so whether it's praise or complaints, I'd appreciate if they were directed towards the actual writer for this episode, Keiichi Hasegawa.

In my case, it is going to be nothing but praise. This is easily the best episode of Saber yet, and a dang good episode of Kamen Rider all around. That's my own personal biased opinion, of course -- one of this episode's biggest victories for me was how much it made me realize seeing the Riders in conflict genuinely upsets me after 15 episodes of camaraderie -- but I legitimately think the writing here was nearly airtight in both how it made the internal conflict work, and the angle the story is taking with it.

They covered their tracks very solidly with the character motivations by playing off of established traits. Touma values promises, and thus refuses to dishonor both his words to Kento, as well as the implied words he likely would've said to the dying Kamijou given the chance. Ren is explicitly the one who escalates the confrontation into physical violence, because he's all about violence. Rintarou is heartbroken at the thought his new friend would speak ill of the family he loves. Daishinji and Ogami are the designated veterans of the current pool of Riders, and as such are both slightly more level-headed and hesitant to join in on the fighting, yet also more liable to trust the word of the organization they've been working with for far longer than they've been working with Touma. They're also probably not trying to actively murder him the way Ren seems to be, nor are they taking it personally like Rintarou is.

It's way too considered and smartly set up to dismiss as cheap writing, as far as I'm concerned. I think it would only look that way if you're only considering Touma's perspective, and the whole thing that I find so clever about this development is how it actively involves the fact that these are individuals with their own viewpoints and principles. I am wildly excited to see where this goes from here. It's a great new direction for a series that seems to be making faith an overarching theme.

But that's honestly not even the biggest thing in the episode that impressed me, which is just how slow it is. There's only one fight scene in this episode, and it doesn't start until the 15 minute mark. In an episode of Saber! There's a very healthy amount of time spent following the characters around in mundane scenarios, and letting them just breathe and talk and relax for once in a while, and I loved every second of that. I hope to see more of it, at least here or there, because it's something Saber could definitely use a bit more of. The big betrayal climax couldn't have happened with anywhere near the clarity and believability it did without that time wisely spent setting it up, and that alone demonstrates how important those smaller scenes can be.

So again, easily the best episode yet. Plus, and this is the really important thing, we've had Brave Dragon show up in three episodes in a row after Dragonic Knight's debut. That's nuts!

Also they went out of their way to have Touma be alone in those shots of the ED with the big books and stuff and not even the upbeat jam could stop that from being depressing.

This is what really got me!! As someone who's been having trouble connecting to these characters and who's felt the character work has been just a little too stunted by just how much they're juggling at once (not helped by the toys), I have a few niggles as stated above; but I instantly got where every character was coming from and felt for all of them. Rintarou and Ren's performances are heartbreaking while the two veterans are shoved in a difficult position, so maybe it's just the Swordsmen Chronicles building them up better for me, or maybe I like seeing simpler archetypes being challenged in this sort of way, but it was just awesome how much more I was invested in these guys now and how much more attached I feel. I guess they were doing a much better job these past 14 episodes than I thought!




also wow i am bad at keeping track of writers

OH, THIS! If I recall, Fukuda has only written six episodes for Q1, with Hasegawa maybe in the same number. I think it was a different set of writers that meddled with Kento's character and rationale during Q1 and it was Fukuda who wrote Kento back to his regular self during Dragonic's debut.

Thinking about this episode even more after I made that last post, something jumped out at me about this episode that I think really sums up why it's worthy of some praise – they made Kamen Riders fighting each other feel like a big deal again.

That's shocking to me, especially rewatching so much Kabuto at the moment. That whole trope is so baked into the franchise at this point there's no way it should ever come off as fresh, but this episode made me instantly grow a huge appreciation for all the plotting decisions the first quarter made. The way it actively pushed the "yay teamwork" message so hard, and the specific character traits the show did make the time to properly establish, and all these other things; it felt like they were really coming together in a meaningful way.

To be fair, especially going by the same trio's work on Ghost too, I'm not sure I'd say it matters ~that~ much who's handling exactly what; they all seem to write towards the show's overall style, and the simple fact that the baton gets passed around so frequently, yet consistently, suggests to me that's all built into the DNA of the production. Like, I assume everyone is talking to each other, you know?

(Oh, and on a slightly related note: can I just say I really love that Genm Corp subs the credits too?)

I'm kind of amazed at how divided opinions are on this episode, some people calling it horrible while others saying it's the best. I suppose it's weirdly fitting, since the episode itself is also about a division within a group.

Personally, I'm on team "it was great!" I actually spoiled myself by reading this thread before seeing the episode, but that didn't make it any worse, in fact it made the scenes of all the swordsmen happily planning a party together even more heartbreaking because I knew what was coming.

I'm very curious about Reika's plan. It kept cutting back and forth between her talking on her phone and the Megid generals' base, which is clearly meant to imply they're working together, but I don't really believe that. None of the generals were talking to her, for starters. I think the Megid and the Southern Base traitors will be two separate organizations.

And I like that the villain's plan to open the giant book still had consequences even though the heroes stopped it from fully succeeding. That outcome is much more interesting than if everything was fine. And I'm curious to see how the SOL will deal with the problem of humans being transformed into Megid...

Remind me of faiz. It got a good cliffhanger and additive vibe, but the tone is depressing , but well here is rushed. We didnt properly develop the supporting cast to be lovey brotherhood and we expect audience to feel for them. The betrayal scene would be heighten if we have more history between the cast. Other than that it disposable. Despite being the second rider, rin taro is like a bland piece of bread. Kento , despite "dead" is more interesting as a secondary rider than him.

Mei is still mei. There's really no link between her and touma aside from being his coworker editor friend. Not a childhood friend, not a IT support girl, or possess any talents/power or any string or tides aside from being a goofball to occasionally give a meaningful supportive speech. Honestly, sophia/luna/mei all could of been 1 girl to make it more interesting. Just consolidated their storyline somehow.

Didnt expect the reika and saikou storyline to turn out like this. I wonder if saikou is still meta and self aware like tassel. We might end up like the zio vs build movie or akibaranger where reality is very warped. At the end, we still don't understand the mechanics is it our world in reality or fictional inside fictional.

Yeah, I actually thought the conflict was well justified in this episode.

Touma is still the rookie/relatively unknown member of the Guild. They also know that both Caliburs were corrupted in some way by their desire to obtain the Table of Revelation. Now Touma is coming back, accusing the Guild of having a traitor in its ranks, with nothing to really go off of but the words of the dead man who killed one of their own. And even then, they tried to calmly and non-violently take his belt and WonderRide books, and Touma made it clear he wasn't willing to part with his power.

Even the way they went into battle I thought was well-done. Of course the hot-headed Ren, who idolized Kento, would jump in first. Then Rintaro, arguably the Guild's most devoted and loyal member would go in next. And then the other two go in to back them up.

This could have maybe been built up over another episode or two but I thought it was...fine.

I couldn't agree more. Of all the criticism that I've seen for this show, this episode's conflict feeling "rushed" is the one that I'm the most disconnected with. Reika brought up extremely good points and both sides genuinely DID try to talk things out and speak their mind. And like you said, the only one who really was in a hurry to actually take down Touma was Ren, and that should be no surprise to anyone.

In what universe was anyone on the Sword of Logos' side going to vouch for Touma just because of friendship and promises? Rintaro's entire fucking life IS the Sword of Logos and his character arc is nowhere near the point where he'd put anything before that. Ogami and Daishinji have been loyal to them for AT LEAST 15 years. Ren only knows justice, and as far as he's concerned, justice does not lie in the guy who went off on his own to have alone time with Calibur, only to come back and accuse the Sword of Logos of treachery.

I really enjoyed the camera work from the scene where Touma was fighting the rest of the Swords.

Random question?
Would this group of Riders be called Saber Riders or Logos Riders?

Like how I've seen a year of Riders named after the main, Decade Riders or named after their job, Doctor Riders.

Since they keep getting referred to as "swordsmen," I'd expect them to be called Swordsman Riders or maybe just Sword Riders.

Although I think job-based names like the Doctor Riders are for specific groups of riders within the show, not all the riders in that season. Like for example, Genm, Paradox, Poppy, Chronus and Nico aren't Doctor Riders.

Thank you for the clarification.

Like the one above me, they're all referred to as swordsmen. I, for fun, would just call them Swordriders. Much like I'd call the AIMs riders as Shotriders and the MBJR as Forceriders. It's just for fun.

Still hate this show but I will have to admit this is not the worse episode but still wish it was written better and that they spent a tad bit more time on the riders thinking before going to Touma.

Now enjoy that because this show has yet shown me that it is going to improve so I will be ready to shit on this show at any second. Though I do wish to be wrong so badly.

If there's one thing that baffles me about this community, it's how people will insist on continuing to watch and discuss a show when all they have to say about it is how much they hate it. I don't have any problem with people criticizing a show, quite the opposite in fact, but after a while it just gets absurd. Surely there's better uses of your time? Things you could do that you'd actually enjoy?

Excuse me if this has been pointed out before, but isn't the couple that notices the world in the sky played by Mayu Hasegawa / Moa Aizaki and Hideyoshi Iwata / Alien Shadow Zena from Ultraman Geed?

If I remember correctly, they married after Geed ended, Hasegawa quit acting, and they had their first child in September 2020.

Which means that this is probably their actual daughter in the shot, which is quite adorable if true.

https://i.imgur.com/V9o4hQb.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/QJHdaWJ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/pX01R8Z.jpg

Indeed. And Mei’s editor was in both Ultraman Max as Mizuki and in Ultraman Geed as Leito’s wife.

Yeah, this episode was directed by Sakamoto (who has of course done a ton of work on Ultraman and was Geed's main director), who personally asked them if they wanted to have a cameo basically as a way of celebrating the occasion.

Probably the coolest cameo on Saber yet, and when this show has had Gridon and Bravo on it, that's saying something!

For me it's because I love Kamen Rider to the point that as long as I am able to watch the each new series, no matter how I feel about it, I will.

Poor guy. You must have suffered through Ghost.

Ghost and second half of Build were torture for me. But Saber might beat them for me because I at least enjoyed the first halves of Ghost and Build.

Those born in a cave know only of darkness.

Dragged my feet on watching this one but I'm glad I finally did because I actually kinda liked it. Have some poorly assembled reactions:

There was a lot of good stuff with the characters outside of their superhero suits this time. I still think the show is overcrowded, but I did appreciate spending time with even a few of the characters in more civilian settings, especially Touma and, believe it or not, Mei. I'm actually starting to think that there's a good character in Mei, but it depends on who's making the episode. When she's being written as Shunpei 2.0 she's kind of awful, but when she's written as a slightly goofy but real character she can be pretty likable.

Embarrassed that I missed the Geed cameos, but I definitely had to pause the episode to see who was playing Mei's editor. Always great to see Mizuki again.

Still getting some Sentai influence on the show. Yuri's arrival was textbook 6th Ranger first appearance: appeared out of nowhere, easily outshone the established characters, lots of close-ups on the toy and its sparkly metallic colors. Also, the show is continuing to do one of my least favorite Sentai-isms: something happens and we get individual reaction shots from every single character.

The others turning on Touma doesn't bother me. Like I keep saying when I get around to responding to Saber threads, this show has a pacing problem. Obviously Shifty Southern Base Lady Whose Name I'm Blanking On poisoning the others against Touma is a fine idea, especially playing off Daishinji, Rintaro, and Ogami's history with the Sword of Logos (also, Ren is there). If played out over an episode or two this would be a really good simmering subplot. Instead, Saber does it in two short scenes. At this point, I generally like the story that the show is telling but I have to accept the fact that it's telling it too quickly for it to be as effective as it could be.