Kamen Rider Saber Episode 23- "The Raging Hand Of Destruction" Discussion
 

Touma decides to break into the Southern Base to meet the legendary Master Logos.

Eitoku's back! Goddamn, it's nice to see Blades get some screentime again!

Primitive Dragon's insert soundtrack, the transformation, Asai having a wild time with the suit, it's sooo good! Also very neat to see Legeiel take some personal issues with Saber since they're both dragon-themed. This makes me worry though that he's first to die.

The Megid and Master Logos don't seem to be in cahoots with each other, but it's more so seem like him and Storious are trying to out-scheme each other or something. Though, it's most likely Storious will get his comeuppance soon. The new Souther Swordsman dude doesn't seem to be too important now, but I feel he'll get to transform at a later time.

Yuri/Saikou continues to be amazing and next week it seems he gets team up with Calibur! Very cool to see Jaaku Dragon make a comeback! I do hope for the return of Jaou Dragon, too. His identity seems to be hidden again, for now.

I could see this being Kento somehow pulling the same schtick Yuri did, by fusing himself with the sword and becoming some sort of living armor as Calibur, it could be Dezast somehow, or some say it's Yuri making use of both Saikou and Kurayami again. Using the shadow to control X-Swordman while he becomes Calibur.

it's time for a game of "who will outscheme the other first"

big fear: ogami dies next episode fighting touma 'cuz touma seems completely out of it, even when not using primitive dragon

sees next episode's title way to not make it totally obvious whose in Calibur's suit this time that being said if the best suit in the show thus far makes it's glorious return (Jaoh Dragon) all is worth it


EDIT Ok I'm about 80% sure it's Kento and 20% sure it's Hayato. It's not Daichi because if it were him they'd not be pulling the "Whose Calibur" card yet again or not show him in the preview if so (honestly Calibur's return regardless of who it is kinda seems like something that SHOULDN'T be in the preview)

Incredibly good form debut! Probably my favourite one in the show so far just in terms of how bombastic it is. The only downside to me is that because they're playing it up as so obviously evil and sinister, it means I'm supposed to expect and 'want' Primitive Dragon to 'calm down' later on, but the form's monstrous movements and bizarre yelling is just so much fun that I wish it could be left as is. Heroes should be allowed to go buck-wild sometimes too!

So Master Logos. I wonder how long the embargo is for Keisuke Sohma.

so that new guy is totally Master Logos and not a southern base swordman ? too bad. I expect the remaining swords to be movie exclusive now, and that somehow southern base "don't have any swordman", just guys in red capes.

I didn't get a chance to check it last night, only the Henshin, but I managed to find a video of the fight.

Yeah we are going "Aren't you tired of being nice? Don't you want to go apeshit?" levels of berserk forms and I love it.

He's a wild animal, and it really reminded me of Putotyra's debut. Even if it's a berserk form, it's refreshing after the cold emotionless killer styled ones Build and Zero-One had.

At the risk of being that type of housewife, the new boy is fairly handsome. I appreciated the episode's focus on the details of its story though, and I'll give it a pass mark for that—although I will note that the quality of the green-screen effects took a notable dip in this episode; I know the employment of such things can't be helped right now, because covid blah-blah-blah, but I'm willing to bet this becomes the norm, and I dislike it for the same reason I disliked all that early '00s sentai CGI; it doesn't look very nice. I liked the introduction of the Logos stormtroopers though! I'm always a fan of henchmen!

Primitive Dragon looks just as awful as the last suit they introduced in this show. Surely these toys can't be cheap to make with all their jagged edges, and certainly they don't look pleasing to the eye, in my opinion at least.

Seeing Touma be all beastly was hilarious though. Bless him, he's about as threatening as a kitten. Poor boy's default status now seems to be looking beat up and sweaty.

Two things I feel worth calling attention to here.

1: You can tell that Shibisaki directed this episode.

2: I love the music playing when Primitive Dragon beat up Legiel and Storious (which is saying something, since I haven’t gravitated to an OST since Zi-O).

Man, this show throws a sweet skeletal dark side Saber form my way and then the very same episode also assures me with the preview that both Brave Dragon and Dragonic Knight are still going to have significant screentime the week after. I should really apologize to the people who hate Saber, because I still swear Toei is for some reason literally making this show exclusively based around things I personally want to see.

And I am a sucker for the old "hero has to struggle for self-control against some kinda evil will" routine! Metal Cluster Hopper was cool. Hazard Form was cool. PuToTyra is equally as cool as TaJaDor to me. Ultimate Form? Way different in execution, but still, very cool. We've seen this trope quite a bit in Rider by this point, and while the most recent time is still arguably too recent for them to be pumping this well again, the redundancy didn't bother me at all.

I think Saber put enough of a spin on Primitive Dragon to keep it feeling fresh. The wild body language is just insane (Kousuke Asai is very good at his job); the way he holds the sword is inspired; and heck, even the design of the book itself is downright genius. What more appropriate way could Saber have chosen to communicate a form that reduces Touma to a mindless beast, devoid of free will, than a claw that forcibly holds shut a book, a source of knowledge, and a medium for self-expression?

Everything about this form has got me so hyped. Dragonic Knight was pretty much a definitive straight upgrade, but it never got me excited the way the creepy bone dragon does. Looking forward to seeing if the way it works itself into the narrative proves to be as interesting. (By the way, should I mention here that I've had a theory Touma's big picture book is the final form item for a while now? They're certainly hinting at a larger significance for it here.)

Anyway, yeah, Primitive Dragon is the big draw to this episode, but it's not ultimately a majorly significant part of the narrative. Which is fine, because we what's building up to that climax is a crazy heist movie deal with the villains and the heroes both launching simultaneous plans to break into Southern Base, which is utterly delightful as a concept, and pretty darn fun in its execution.

I lowkey like the Megid trio a fair bit, and am always waiting for the show to give them a bigger chance to shine, and this was a solid outing for all three of them, demonstrating Storius' scheming, Zooous' brutishness, and even a bit of Legeiel's pride, all in one episode. Like, these guys have always had distinct character traits, but in a lot of episodes, you kinda have to go looking for it, so the clarity this time was nice. The more the show does with these three, the better.

On the heroes' end, I think I mostly just loved how goofy Touma was throughout the infiltration? There's a vulnerability to his comic nervousness that brings him right back down to earth after so many epic speeches in a row lately. Again, this is something that's always been part of Touma's characterization, and it serves as an especially nice reminder of his humanity in an episode that builds up to the threat of that being ripped away.

This is an episode heavy enough on setup that there's potential for them to fumble some of these points later down the line, but as a start to a new arc, I thought it was quite promising.

Primitive Dragon is awesome! The fighting style is definitely different compared to Saber's more orthodox swordsmanship and is instead a wild raging beast, complete with the impractical (if not stylish) backhand sword grip. Of course, I wonder if this means this form can't actually be used to save people and would instead be relegated to fighting the Megid leaders.

Something interesting to note is that Master Logos (or whoever Storious actually met on the stairs) called Storious one of "The First". Someone noted in a previous episode that in the flashback which relegated the tales of the first swordsmen, three of the swordsmen shown looked suspiciously like Storious, Legeiel and Zooous so something's definitely going on here.

Also, the Calibur suit's back next week! Could it be Kento? Of course we haven't seen Desast around for some time, although I doubt it would be him as 'Calibur' is seen in the preview helping Yuri fight Touma.

EDIT: Also, love how Primitive Dragon's totally grabbing Rekka by the blade. Like it doesn't give jackfruit if it cuts itself or not.

Out of all the berserker power-ups we had thus far(Putotyra excluded since that is technically an ultimate form) this looks nice and I love how he moves like a fragile yet feral zombie of sorts. It reminds me of SkullGreymon to an extent just painted icy blue and more unstable.

So as it turns out Primitive Dragon's theme is just stock music. Here's the vocal version
SFX Fantasy Rayforce
And the instrumental one used in the show.
SFX Fantasy Rayforce

I had a suspicion about that! I didn't like it that much, honestly? I don't have anything against the use of stock music, but this particular instance clashed way too much with the show's usual style for my tastes. That's probably what they were going for, to be fair, but still.

Oooh now that is certainly interesting. Honestly I loved the background music a lot, which is surprising since it's basically a stock track.

Reminds me of how in certain season's there are like very specific track repeats from prior ones. Or like how during Grease's debut you could hear a Kyuranger track!

Very interesting about the music. That definitely stood out to me while watching the scene. I couldn't put my finger on what felt so odd, but that explains it.

I kinda liked the stock music, to be honest. The title of the track also gives me the idea of a proud beast rampaging around rather than the standard 'oh shit' music a berserk form soundtrack would play.

Okay, maybe I'm just a sucker for berseker forms in general, but I loved that debut for Primitive Dragon. The design, the feral and slightly zombie-ish movements (shoutout to both Touma's actor and the suit actor, they really sold it), the brutal fighting style that totally clashes with the image of honorable knights, the way the bone dragon grabs Touma as if claiming him, just... hell yeah.

It's been really fun watching these past handful of episodes where things were getting better and better for Touma and it looked like he might be able to turn this whole traitor situation around, knowing Primitive Dragon was coming to mess that all up, and it did not disappoint!

I also really liked the beginning of the episode, when Daishinji said he could modify the other swords to separate humans from Megid and Mei asked "what about the people who were already transformed?" It hit hard. Even though Touma promised to find a way to save them too, I like how the writers aren't letting us forget the consequences of failing to save people.

Just a random thought from me but I do wonder why berserker forms are extremely popular. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against them but what is it that makes them so endearing?

The providence of Odin. :p

Seeing the sheer raw potential unleashed for a good round of whoopass. And following that, just observing the trial of the hero who now has to tame this newfound power is always fun to watch.

To make it short, if the berserk form does something that the MC wouldn't otherwise do, it'd make good character development.

I love a good feral character, when they just go all out and start beating the shit out of their enemies with no remorse.

Personally I'm more of a fan of the bestial ones, while the silent killers are okay, I just love the yelling and growling that comes with ones like Fang Joker, Putotyra and now Primitive.

Like I absolutely loved the one part where Storious steps in, where Primitive is just slowly crouch walking towards them, suddenly gets hit by an energy slash that does NOTHING, and suddenly starts skittering towards both Megido generals like a fucking thriller movie.

Rewatching Primitive debut and hey~ isn't that the camera crew?

HAHAH! Oh my gosh! It is, isn't it?

*waves at them* Hiii guys!

What the :lolol

Close-ups that would be awesome but unfortunately reveal the camera crew? Damn, this really is the Ghost creative team!

Pretty fun episode, but my mind is completely monopolised right now by how Calibur's in the next time trailer and how casually he's there. Like, that's a big deal! Even putting his identity aside, the Kurayami and the rest of Calibur's gear mysteriously disappeared after his death. That's huge! It's back! How is it back?! I'm honestly more excited about this than anything to do with Primitive Dragon

They saved money by making the use of southern base set looking like northern one, but finally we get to explore the internal of the base instead for a limited square room set. Sophia , the mentor is gone like 80% of the episodes. Is she the special one from the myth and lore anyways. She didnt contribute to the caliber storyline finale.

I haven't been able to watch the episode yet, but I found a video of the Primitive Dragon fight, and I loved every second of it. The suit is amazing. Everything about it is amazing. And the way it moves and acts are all crazy cool.

Just gotta wait for the whole episode to be available to get some context.

Oh yeah Sophia.

It's going to take a lot of clever and magical writing to make it feel like she was actually a relevant part of the story and not literally replacable with a magic crystal or something.

In addition to what other people have said, I think it goes nicely with the theme of Kamen Riders drawing power from the same source as their monsters. What better way to highlight that than with a power that makes the Rider actually act like a monster?

Man, I really hope that when they release the Saber Primitive Dragon SHF, that they include unique hands that let him grip Rekka by the blade like he does in the form. Would definitely add a nice unique touch to him in that form.

The high risk high reward factor really tensing things up alongside the unpredictable outcome I think also contributes to the popularity as well. It has people guessing.

Just got around to watching this episode and I really enjoyed it. I'm wondering if the person Touma ran into at the southern is Master Logos. Also wondering that if Master Logos is one of the "first" if he knew the other original swordsmen from 2000 years ago (and if Zoous, Storius, and Legiel (and Yuri) were also part of the "First").

Primitive Dragon had a great debut, and I'm left wondering how the book Touma has, and the forbidden book that became Primitive Dragon are related. Did Touma almost die when he was a kid because he got involved with some forbidden knowledge?

Also I wonder how the whole putting different books into Primitive's Dragon's hold will affect the plot/how Touma fights in the form.

KR aren't the best to explore lores in the high spec details, so I would expect a few throwaway like with tassel.

I'm really worried having read this now, you know, because when I saw it, I was like, cool, that's definitely Logos, that's why he's got so much focus this episode, but if they do a Calibur and pull a U-turn in order to introduce some kind of new random character after having set this guy up, I will feel marginally cheated.

From their exchange, I gathered that whilst the three generals were "original" Swordsmen, Master Logos was a title that was passed down, so he would know of the three of them, but maybe not have met them before.

So that boy who Touma got visions of while "reading" the forbidden book, does anyone have any idea who that was? I didn't recognize him, but he might have been young Touma or young Kento?

It was young Touma

Once again, late to the party, but here I am, and... Honestly, I love Primitive Dragon even more than the pictures we've seen of him, and to add a little something extra, he even acts animalistic which I loved, something I think puts him over Build Black Hazard or Zero-One Metal Cluster Hopper, in my book (Pun intended) for a berserker form.
Also, I kind of feel like Reika is just a misdirection for the Sword of Logos traitor, since Master Logos (or as some people have been speculating, someone in his guise) was with Sophia in that one scene in one of the earlier episodes and he just lets Storious waltz away with a potentially dangerous book. I know some people have been speculating they might be trying to outwit each other, but I'm not sure. Though I kind of wish the Sword of Logos goons had some generic Rider-esque cronies.
Next week: Calibur is back? Touma goes on a rampage? Kento is back? I don't know what to write here so uh... Bonne Lecture?