Kamen Rider Revice Episode 10- Brothers Believing Heart!" Discussion
 

Ikki fights to reach his brother while Sakura seeks vengeance against the Deadmans.

First time watching an episode love this season. Should be exciting

Funny how the SHT this week has both shows having heroes trying to get a piece of their family back.

Awesome.

Very cool.

But I miss Kagerou already, hope they don't bench him.

Next week, as expected, Sakura Rider!

Reiwa bringing us a female rider every season and I love it.

...They are just fucking with us at this point? The one character that seemed to have any ambiguity to him about how he feels and they show us his thoughts...

Yeah, no, at this point it feels like the show thinks its viewers are complete idiots that need everything painstakingly explained to them in the most obvious way possible. "Don't worry, he does actually care a lot. No need to engage with the show in any way. Just look at the pretty colors."

Really, at this point, they are just dangling keys in my face while overexplaining the basic story they are telling...

Way to waste a good idea show...

The Bat-Spider-Cobra Trio is finally complete. And they're all Riders!

I wonder if her Rider gimmick will reference female Riders at all.

I am far from this show's biggest fan or anything, but that's kinda ridiculous? Not only is it a children's show so it's expected for it to lay out the messages of the episode, but it's hardly doing it in a way that's different from Saber or even most other toku shows when its time to be like 'here is the lesson we learned'?

While I agree showing his mind and him weeping like a weirdo is odd, and should have just been treated like regularly worried, I don't really think Hiromi is an "ambiguous" character. Especially when he's pretty upfront on what he's all about.

He personally feels responsible to Daiji's Evil situation which is how he became a rider to begin with. That's not really ambiguous to me.

That was a pretty good debut fight for Live honestly.

Quick, stylish, and it had one of my favorite styles which is gun-fu.

Rewatching and, aww I like that end bit Sakura, Ikki, and Daiji. Just going to be a little sad (and imo kinda disapppointing) that we're heading into another sibling conflict already. Live's debut is great, reminds me of Slash's debut, still a little underwhelmed by a suit, only remedied by how great the action and Nakata's performance is. He'll still look great next to FENIX soldiers.

Hiromi's first detransformation noooo
Speaking of Hiromi. The way they expressed Hiromi's sadness is pretty dumb, especially for a chekov's gun. I agree with that. But I do like that it shows the softness in Hiromi is covered by his mind of steel. Very cool.

Hatred and Jealousy is what fuels a Demon's growth
So, there you go. That's how Kagerou would be a little weaker going forward, now that Daiji seems to have less resentment towards Ikki-nii.

No, children are not that stupid and pretty much every other Rider show knows it. Sure, they lay out the morals often, but they don't effectively turn towards the camera and say "Sakura is feeling powerless. She has a demon and with it inner turmoil. I wonder what will happen to her." That blatant lampshading is not a thing in other shows, they are fine with you missing something if you understand most of it, Revice is not.

Episode 9 had three scenes for Sakura, the first is the least egregious since it was just the camera focusing on her being worried for a long while. The second and third are so much worse, in the second George tells her she'd probably has a powerful demon, which is just signposting her development, and the karate scene that lets her state out the question if power even makes happy and that's basically her motivation and arc through the show with very high possibility. And with that, I basically know everything that is important about her, spoonfeed to me, without ever actually engaging with the show on my own terms.

I hate this style of writing. It treats its viewers like idiots and no, children are not idiots, they will get the basic stuff without this excessive amount of handholding.

And yes, I think Saber was better in that department. It didn't mind just hinting at plot points, like the first Calibur's glove that comes back later without ever really pointing at it, or Daishinji potentially being on the autism spectrum, with his inability to deal with large crowds and his immense social awkwardness that fades once interacting with his interests. In Revice I feel like Vice would just keep talking about how awkward he is, instead of just letting it be part of the scene organically.

In short, the show feels like its stopping me from actively engaging with it on any level past the surface level, something I never experienced in any other Rider show.

Oh. Oh wow, I didn't actually think of it like that.

https://i.imgur.com/gzm0Ug6.jpeg

Edit: I would say though, that Saber isn't completely absolved of the issue you stated. Though I suppose the image below wouldn't be as egregious as the Sakura ones you mentioned.

https://i.imgur.com/MfO1Vgh.jpg

Still trying to wrap my head around Ikki disappearing from a photo again. Is it going to turn into something like Den-O where Ikki will be forgotten?

I get what you mean, but, it is still kinda better. Mention it, before pushing it into the background and expecting you to remember. This doesn't really come up again till Claiburs return, which is about a fourth of the show later. There is not much wrong with pointing at something and saying "That might be important, pay attention" as long as its done in moderation.

And, well, a lot of people actually forgot that "The world is destined to end" bit was even a thing once Calibur returned.

Saber in generall loves to offhandedly mention something, like the 4 Wisegods, and not mention it again until its important. Revice feels more like it's constantly reminding me of the things it wants to me remember.

And yeah, Saber's not perfect, but I actually liked conecting the dots there, something I'm currently missing in Revice. There is no "Ohhh! That came back!? I didn't expect that" it's more, "Yeah, no, I figured that'd happen."

Part of me thinks it's just symbolism, the more Ikki uses Revice the more probably Vice will take over as Ikki's "soul". Since he's the only one noticing it, it seems.

Idk, seems kinda weird they would have magic stuff in a primarily technology-based rider. But then again... We still don't know what Giffu is about.

No comment on whether other shows did it better or worse but yeah, I'll definitely agree that Revice's story is so far just checking off 'expected' boxes and little else.

Episode was just kind of alright. Live's debut was neat, but I already miss the sword. I liked them hammering in that Kagerou was Ikki's fault, and I liked Sakura being confronted by what's her name.

And that's about it. Vice continues to be incredibly annoying, peering into characters' heads is a lame power that will most likely be incredibly useful but he likely won't use unless it's for a cheap gag like it was here.
Everything being painfully spelled out was also really annoying, too.

While i like this episode conceptually i wish it split to 2 Episodes at least, Kinda too fast paced for my taste

Also isn't bracio Vi-stamp still in proto Version? AKA not have Zio relief yet hmm is this a Mistake or will be relevant?

Well Yeah Everything bit spelled out in this Episode thata Why this is the first time i feel This Episode kinda ehh

Also to Me Saber is definition of So much Setup with no Pay off

In LOTR terms, this is just the "Leave now and never come back" with Kagero.
Something later down the line in the show will make Kagero reappear, leading to us eventually having Daiji and Kagero be a team.

Y'know, I don't really mind the peek at what Hiromi's thinking so much. He's already kinda a goofy character within this setting, taking a moment to go 'yeah the stoicism is really only a shell around a Really sappy inside' is... more direct then necessary, probably, but I gather its the sort of thing they thought was obvious enough they might as well joke about it.

I take more issue with that being a power Vice has in general. It's kinda a repeating thing, where to try and sell Vice's appeal they keep giving him these Really convenient powers, as a way of giving him some objective worth. But like a couple of the others, this one doesn't really work because...

Wait, what's it supposed to mean in the narrative if Ikki is bad at reading other people's feelings, but Vice just has a cheat to allow him to see them? Because it's not like he has access to this insight out of true concern on his part, it's just convenient information he doesn't have to do much to get, in a way no human would actually be capable of. How does that relate to characterizing Vice as Ikki's demon?

(It's also just the cheaper way of how they could have realized Daiji was still in there. The story about them as kids was about Daiji making noise until he was found. A better parallel would be if Daiji had gotten some constant tell through while being possessed, and Ikki/Vice had realized it. More work to set up of course, but probably a more satisfying conclusion then 'well Vice saw he was objectively still there, so.')

I think what's most interesting about Vice's ability here is surely he would have been able to detect Hiromi's demon from going inside his head. The fact that he didn't means Hiromi probably doesn't have one, as everyone correctly assumed.

Must be a plot hole? How come Hiromi doesn't have one when we clearly saw it when he tried to use the Revice driver? I know Revice destroyed it, but that doesn't mean the demon is gone, as Kagerou shows he can just keep spawning them.

Vice and Kagerou probably aren't too different from the MOTWs apart from their looks and power, since Vice is released basically the same way. Which is stamping yourself.

Really weird they haven't talked about what is Hiromi's demon and why he doesn't have it locked up. Would be funny and (preferred) if his demon was actually the little spider that spawns in his transformation.

I think it would be really interesting if Hiromi doesnt't have a demon inside his body. But, because he doesnt't have a demon, maybe his life probably is in danger because side effect from Demons Driver.

Also, his catchphrase before his fight is really suspicious too, and it feels like deathflag for him.

I said it before and you said I was wrong about it, TheRaizin.

The spider in the vistamp is an artificial demon. That's why it's the only one that allows a henshin. His upgrade (if he gets one) will probably be a similar vistamp that'll let him use Revice's vistamps for form changes.

It's already been stated in the first episode he has one, and it's not compatible with the Revice driver. Everyone has one, some less apparent than others.

Also, yeah, his catchphrase is screaming for character death which I'm preparing my heart for :lol

Oh. Interesting, interesting. My bad. So, it seems unleashing a Demon via the Revice Driver and having it destroyed is a perma-loss.

Also, yay, the little spider is his demon now!

I think the dramatic elements of this show are good in concept, but often trip over themselves. Like, Ikki realizing that his brother is still in there is cool, but Vice confirming it through wacky head entering powers? Not so much. To me, the show often feels like everything was too subtle in the first draft, and then was edited to go too hard in the other direction and have the subtlety of a sledgehammer.

I did like the episode though, I had to crack a smile at seeing the family back together and the fights were very cool looking.

Oh, another episode with Ikki getting the most focus. So this episode shows that even if you only have the best intention of others (with Ikki intending to become a Rider take care of people; other families as well, still inserting family in his altruistic motive declaration... consistent, show) and didn't really do mean stuff to them (even in the name of 'making them better'), you can still have flawed approach in that. Ikki's insistence to be the one handling probably anyone's problems can feel like he's taking all the spotlight and turn overbearing due to that, and it's due to him not putting his faith on Daiji to handle something instead, contradicting his claims, making Vice right, like Ikki handling the problems of his siblings cause Daiji to feel marginalized, feeling unimportant due to everything being handled by others, spurring him to look for a place where he can shine on his own (and inadvertently making things worse via Kagerou). It's also seen before when Ikki inadvertently forced Sakura to go into Daiji's promotion despite her karate session. Not that Ikki fully fits, but this can lean towards overprotective parent/bigger sibling type, which doesn't really consider the feelings of those under your care if they'd not want to be treated as such (as Ikki realizes his selfishness to Daiji), which isn't an optimal way to take care of them and can do more harm than good, this he needs to learn to give some space for those under your care, and learn some of the others' worth like Daiji's strength as he's lost before. Though I feel like that flashback or Sakura's reaction to Genta crying seems to enforce that being emotional is weak again... This is also a case when the 'victimized' one didn't lash out at others due to them getting where Daiji (not Kagerou) didn't really do evil shit, other than probably denying his family relations at his promotion, so I guess for this once, Ikki can take the bigger blame, one that can be easily overlooked too. Their argument before was only Daiji acting like Ichijou from Kuuga against Ikki, and what he did at the end was bringing up his nosy traits again in lighthearted manner. Now I guess Kagerou won't be fully eliminated (if it is it's too fast), so time to learn how to prevent Kagerou returning.

Conveniently there's still 1 Deadman after Daiji is restored, to have him show off as Live (just "Evil" with reversed letter. Why they didn't reference "Love" for Evol before though...). Live's design reminds me of Drake, and he's also a gunslinger like him, where I admit his fighting moves of gun-fu are quite flashy and stylish. The Rider that is done to get Live, Revice Brachio Genome with Zi-O motif (and Time Mazine as Remix), has the Zi-O traits quite underutilized, only mostly about both him and Vice beating up the stunned Evil, like there's no time-motif power (for example Zi-O II had it which allows it to predict attacks for instance). Though both the Zi-O motif and the animal it uses has a thought put behind it; Zi-O's first episode has Sougo running away from a Tyrannosaurus, which, like brachiosaurus, are dinosaurs. The Brachiosaurus is also meant as a gentle giant, generally peaceful until you make it mad, which is like how Sougo is the most powerful KR as Ohma Zi-O, and is generally a nice guy but one you shouldn't mess with.

Earlier on, this establishes something new for Sakura, establishing her vendetta and irrational disdain against Kamen Riders due to how it affects the family, ironically just before the scans implied her to be the next Rider. The series establish further of the 2 major girl characters' rivalry with her fighting Aguilera, this time taking Aguilera's kick better (without leaving a mark in her white cloth) than before. Via Aguilera's temptation, I guess the next episode will show how dangerous it is when superpowers exist and how it can affect edgelords like her (she had some power before though albeit as normal human in her martial arts), highlighting the difference between what they're expected to do (Sakura outside family; being more friendly and cordial) or what they're likely want to do (Sakura to or around family; being harsh, pretentious, critical, visibly annoyed, despite obviously care as this scene shows). Dunno what'd happen next yet, but I guess if Sakura gives in to her inner dark desire then her edgelord side is... her true self (or it's an influence from Aguilera), and that'd mean Ayaka (Imoto)'s claim of Sakura being kind is contradicted (I thought her true self is her against others before due to Ayaka's claim) even if it won't last forever. Her arc is about finding "true strength" despite her mastery in karate, and the Deadman stint is apparently related to that too, still can't talk much but hope I get something to learn from it.

The above is a morton's fork situation for Hiromi as he's wrong either way, he gets scolded for not speaking up, but if he does then it's him taking blame anyway for being a Fenix member that involves Igarashi family. The end of the episode shows that Hiromi can loose up, offering a genuine smile after Daiji is restored, probably he's in that situation when there's not military occupations stressing him. It's also probably him actually more hoping for a best outcome too, but had less hesitation before compared to Ikki, who is a family. Also the first time he got de-henshin... so the Deadman of the week from the Sentai alumnis puts better fight than Olteca and Julio (at least if those 2 didn't hold back). George seems to be thrilled over the appearence of Live, so he seems to appreciate some of the Kamen Rider virtues (other than being a fan of its aesthetics) to a degree, wanting to create a hero that is born from lots of drama and struggle. Still doesn't change the fact that he let a superpowered villain loose though as Kagerou before. It'd be neat if he has a goal of creating real life version of Kamen Rider... probably got filmed by his camera or such, but that should show about how destructive and dangerous superpowers can be in real life are (well, in the perspective of their world vs the in-universe KR shows there), so his moral is still bankrupt. Wakabayashi starts to be suspicious of him... firstly assuming him as just a mad scientist who prioritizes experiment over anything, when he's motivated by his, destructive passion of Kamen Rider.

For those who thinks this is cheap, I feel like it already started way before, after Kagerou reveals his identity in front of Ikki. Obviously that informs Ikki that it's not Daiji genuinely turning evil. Though dunno if you think that part is cheap too, but it's rooted from there. Though I personally think I do want for them to show what trait does Vice's ghostly body have, I feel like Vice going into Daiji/Kagerou's head is in line with Vice going to Kudo's (corrupt lawyer) storage to prove that he had a ViStamp, being supernatural means you're intangible and can accomplish tasks that involves something hidden due to him being able to phase through things, but due to that he can't protect Ikki even if he wanted too outside Revice, as seen in ep. 8 when Kagerou attacks Ikki. I think what really holds them back is Vice's self-centered personality instead of power limitation. I guess the worst resolution is still how Ayaka "makes up" with her mother though. The family reunion that takes cost got ruined though, at the onsen..

I don't know if I'm getting you right here, but it seems that the explanation of demon being inside is more of a series gimmick/supernatural stuff talk rather than moral, or even a really obvious thing to say as probably any humans have a Demon too, seen in how Deadmans come from humans. And it's probably a misguided view to claim that development can only be done via having supernatural stuff like her having demon or such, I prefer if people'd acknowledge that a character can develop. It's more of character revelation to her rather than character development. I don't know what to say regarding her talking about power and happiness in karate dojo though, it can be probably just outwardly her just talking with her friends there.

Ikki needs to renegotiate his contract with Fenix so he can get one of those useful motorcycles.

#NiceVice though! He's saying exactly what Ikki needs to hear and getting to the point of the problem. Ikki is kind of a control freak with how much responsibility he gives to himself. If there's a problem, he wants to be the guy who fixes it, but the problem with that is, sometimes people need to fix their own problems. People need to feel validated and have a purpose in life, so Ikki inserting himself in Daiji's life has been spoiling and suffocating Daiji, making him feel useless. So I have to give credit to Vice for getting Ikki to confess his error and see Daiji and Kagerou more for what they are, rather than his own distorted image.

Three Brachio Deadmen merging in to one. Hmm, Zi-O Trinity reference?

Daiji's return and debut as Live was cool, seeing how he previously displayed his shooting skill with the Gundephone and that's also his preferred fighting style with his primary weapon being the aptly named Livegun (did George let Shinnosuke name these?). It's clever how they hinted at his skill before he officially became a Rider, makes his immediate mastery as Live more plausible.

It's a shame you typoed "live" cause that would've been a nice pun otherwise.

Aguilera!

With Kagerou getting forced out of action for a while, Aguilera's resuming her search for more stepchildren to revive Gif. Looks like Julio might have an unrequited crush on her, with how he wishes her a safe trip and gets ignored. But Aguilera has promised her heart to Gif, so curious to see if that escalates in to a love triangle.

If devils feed on their hosts' hatred and jealousy, then I think maybe it's less of a perma-loss and more of a reset. Like Kagerou was just defeated, but if he gradually recovers his strength by continuing to feed on Daiji's moments of weakness, he might emerge once more.

Yeah, it's like he's trying to create his own Kamen Rider fanfic in real life, creating problems for the heroes to overcome and show their heroism. The Othello board is symbolic of this, with a player having more tiles giving the enemy more opportunity to flip them. A rather literal case of good and evil being two sides of the same coin.

Vice was the MVP of their fight with Evil though, being the only one with the clear head, configuring the Revislasher and trying to calm Revi so he doesn't do anything dangerous. Revi wasn't even thinking about Vice, so they weren't in sync and Evil used that to his advantage. Since Vice is a manifestation of Ikki's hidden desires, it makes sense that there would be a selfish side to Ikki as well, like not believing in others and trying to solve everybody's problems instead of helping them solve their own, hence why he's called the ultimate busybody, similar to Kikuchi Keitarou.

Regarding Vice's incorporeal form, my biggest question is still how he's supposed to eat?

Anyway, Revice Brachio Genome debuted here and I think it's smart how the finisher had the clock effect flipping from 49 to 50. A square number followed by a round number. However, the Remix has yet to appear, so I won't mention the Machine parallel yet.

I'm going to miss Evil. Much cooler suit design than Live, in my opinion.

So a small detail that I loved: the Mole stamp that Hiromi was using made a drill that had Amazon's colors and stripes. Not only does that mean we finally have a Showa power up, but it's one where the animal actually makes sense for the Rider: the Mole Beastman was Amazon's longstanding, if begrudging ally.

Also, I am officially done with Vice. Most annoying comic relief character since Ghost.

Do you mean Onari or Yurusen?
I feel like Vice is on another level compared to the two of them. For one, Vice's interaction outside of transformation is limited to Ikki as opposed to Onari/Yurusen being able to interact with the rest of the cast. Also, they don't break the fourth wall needlessly.

Also, Yurusen is voiced by Aoi Yuuk-

I mean Onari. Yurusen honestly never bothered me much. Onari is the single worst character in the history of the franchise.

It has me interested in more of Demons' power ups!

I've been intentionally avoiding upcoming suit and toy reveals because the generally arbitrary nature of what stamp equals with tribute means that I never know what the next form is going to be until the stamp gets used. It was nice to see a case where the form actually makes sense, though.

Ignoring that one Vice scene, Hiromi continues to get more and more interesting for me for out-of-place he is in a series where family is the central theme and all the other Riders are part of the same family. He has no family of his own, he's not a villain and he's not even ideologically opposed to anything (outside of not believing in Daiji as much in this arc), he's just a dependable ally who happens to be completely out of line with everything else going on thematically. And that SOUNDS like a criticism, but I'm just really interested to see where they go with him; especially since he wasn't originally supposed to live past one episode! Will he be revealed to have family of his own? Will he have doubts, or feel alone? Will he be found family through his bonds growing with the rest of the Riders in battle? I genuinely have no idea where he's going to go and I'm just growing more interested in what they plan to do with him!

This arc was also okay. Wish it happened later and Vice sucks but whatever. 6/10

Wait, he wasn't supposed to live past one episode?
Here I thought he had enough presence to be considered the secondary rider, but apparently he wasn't even supposed to survive this long? :lol

In the original scenario, he died after freeing the demon in the first episode. But the director liked Junya Komatsu's acting and decided to leave him. This is very noticeable, for example, in the 8th episode, where Hiromi seemed to be added to a ready-made script.
I think that this is for the best, because, by taking Shova Riders, he helped Revice, who already has at least 24 forms.

I still don't get why people think he's the secondary rider. He didn't even appear before Evil and it's not like he's got a presence comparable to Chalice; this is baffling me