Kamen Rider Revice Episode 27- "Tyrants' Rampage & Violent Runaway" Discussion
 

Fenix reveals their connection to the Deadmans while the Igarashi family reels from the power of Vail.

George Demons

I'm die, thank you forever

man the demons driver keeps getting tossed around like a hot potato

Called that it would be a hot potato belt.

That being said, man is the situation really screwed to hell if George of all people is transforming into Demons.

"it was never meant for you hiromi.... it was meant for MEEEEEE"

Olteca is such an incredible bastard, him just taunting the protagonists by offing random civilians while the heroes were running towards him is such a wonderfully hateable move. This episode had some nice payoff, with Ikki and Vice fusing having an expectedly dangerous outcome with Gifu causing demons to lose control. Weedend also chose to just fully play their hand at this point and try and bring the Igarashis over to their side. The little scene with the siblings reuniting with their mom was also incredibly sweet. Good stuff.
Anyways, I really hope George actually transforms next episode and they aren't just teasing us. It looks like Revice is getting another form upgrade too, which is frankly getting excessive at this point!

You know, OOO has always been the Rider show I think of when I think of episodes that take forever to get to the theme song, but lately it feels like Revice is on track to challenge that throne. Over five minutes this week! That's as long as OOO as its longest, and I'm pretty sure it's not even the first time Revice has gone that long before the opening. It's also probably happening for the same reason as OOO, where the show has such a huge ensemble of developed characters with unique motivations, and so many different plot threads intertwining, that it's hard to find a good "hook" moment to pause on right away. Like, if you want to get the viewer up to speed on what everybody is doing, it's sort of inevitable that episodes end up edited this way. And you know, all these characters really do have fun things going on right now!

On a very shallow level, I'm still in love with Holy Live and his silly Ghost-esque stock footage transformation. (Even when he's supposed to be running, which is as tokusatsu hero as a tokusatsu hero can get.)

I appreciate how much work the show has done since the very very early days to build up Sakura's own personal journey, and between that and Yukimi explicitly being one of the insiders on the secret Igarashi backstory, you can very much tell how serious Kinoshita is about his stated desire to write strong women. (And I mean, this dude clearly adores writing Sakura. It's hard to complain.)

George is a wonderful presence as always, and it seems like part of the rapidly changing status quo in this stretch of the show might end up being him coming into focus as more of a straight good guy, considering how much genuine concern he's been showing for other human beings lately.

Ikki and Vice continue to have a solid dynamic too, of course, but that's probably something to talk about more next time.

And then you've got Olteca, who apparently just has the backstory of Bruce Banner. Go figure! Although now that I think about it, your average Incredible Hulk story might not be that far removed from Revice's basic concept... huh. Anyways, yeah, Olteca's still the worst! It's really telling just how aggressively terrible he is as a person that it doesn't even feel like this reveal of how he became who he is now is meant to make you feel the slightest degree of sympathy for him. And that's fine! It's okay to just have a bad guy who's bad, and Olteca has been excelling at that for a while now. Like Vail said, the guy just smells like a demon, you know?

Not much to say, most of this episode was just setting up next episode, which is what Kinoshita himself describes as "the end of Revice's first half". Even by the previews,(George Demons?! Thunder Gale debut?! That ridculous looking Ikki-Vice hybrid?) I can tell next episode will be a real shakeup!

Gotta say, directing Sakura's speech an episode ago towards herself in her descision for joining Weekend, that's so good! Love it so much!

Olteca backstory.....okay, i guess? Do hope this doesn't mean they're gonna try us make us feel sorry for him when he (most likely?) goes down next episode.

Holy Live has existed for 1 episode and it's already getting washed, you'll get your chance to get a W next time lol.

Really interested in what Aguliera's next move will be.I sure hope nothing bad happens to her.

Man the body count for this show is reaching Kuuga levels now isn't it? Ok maybe not quite but its the most we've seen in a while right?

I think since Build. Build had several (most) important main characters die and Evol destroys an entire planet onscreen at one point.

Who here votes George will do well & be officially Demons for the rest of the series?

And I'm worried about Aguilera. Hate for her to die for Giff. Only Sakura can save her!

I feel for Hiromi to be a fresh new rider.

Uh... do we have seen Demons on set somewhere? Because he is not in the preview, so to this looks like a proper fake-out. We only see George trying to transform, then during the battle scenes there is no Demons anywhere, and once the new Revice form is on screen George is standing there cheering.

Also, "George transforms!?" in the preview has a question mark at the end for a reason.

I feel like he will charge in, deliver the power up item, and then tries to buy time by transforming, but is unable to do so because well - Vail isn't in the Driver anymore.

Unless there is a shot for a magazine or something I have missed, I doubt George will transform.

I want Hiromi to come back and just be Demons again, no new belt, no new form. Just take back what was his and kick ass with it. But knowing Rider, there will be something new attached to his return, just to sell toys.

Is there anything more adorable than rampaging Lovekov? No. No, there isn't.

People are speculating based on the 2 photos of Demons alongside Jeanne and Holy Live in the preview shots on https://www.kamen-rider-official.com/revice/28

Also, hey! George does (or attempts) the Kuuga pose for his henshin, that's sick!

Olteca and Demons parted ways again faster, with Holy Live being outright stomping him in a fight, though taking a while for Holy Live to put down Demons, as Demons did punch Holy Live, but it had no effect. Other than that, Olteca's even more fleshed out in this episode, and it's nice that even a purely evil villains got this without giving them redeeming traits when Olteca displayed his nihilistic worldview like him thinking promises are meant to be broken or that he thinks happiness can only be gained from sacrificing others, to psyche out Daiji killing Kagerou before. I'm one of those that hoped Olteca won't be redeemed, and now he's shown to have a dark kind of backstory too that his father abused him due to being a freak via being a prodigy. One of the worst instance of "redemption" in Gai from Zero-One had the series using father abuse (and not as bad as this) acting as it's the only reason Gai treated everyone terrible and that the daddy issues alone are fully sufficient path for redemption, and I hope Olteca's backstory involving father won't be used like that.... as Olteca goes even further in his cruelty, using Giff ViStamp on a young child this time. Otherwise I predicted about Olteca mass turning people into Giftarians as a sacrifice for Giff in the preview before. I don't know how did those people get unconsious though. Now there goes the chance to kill Olteca easily (like when Aguilera worked with him again) as Giff protects him when Holy Live attacked him, and his presumed evolution in preview. There's also a tease of Olteca and Akaishi breaking apart too.

It seems that even Yukimi had a bit of a selfish going with the past that she wanted to keep the family's happiness thus she kept Genta's backstory a secret from everyone. This can be the keeping secret to honor Genta type, but this is also the keeping secrets to keep people she loves happy, the "doing what's best for them in their mind" type, which can remind me of certain characters.... obviously if it's really Yukimi being in the wrong, then she gotta apologize for keeping secret. For the group hug, now Yukimi sees Vice as another Ikki, of which resolves the feud between them now. Vice has changed for the better now, but I'd like to see more clear resolution of the apology like Kasumi to Gentoku in Build, forgiving him due to how Gentoku's clearly redeemed at that point as Kasumi noted. Otherwise this shows more why Yukimi really cherishes Genta, more compared to the children, including acting lovey-dovey to him without shame. She seems fashionable too in the past with her outfit choice against Junpei.

For more Weekend reveal here, the theory of Ushijima family not being actual family was a right one, but other than that there's more in that Weekend is an anti-government organization thus it targets Fenix for their true intention. Both Ikki and Daiji are enraged of them targeting Fenix... of which both of them seem clouded and biased in this case, and is not like their previous portrayal after they deemed Fenix as questionable (albeit Daiji wants to stay to investigate further), or them still trying to reassure themselves of the organization they have affiliation with. Other than that, though at first they forcefully take Ikki by zapping him, the Ushijimas don't seem to have malicious intent towards the Igarashis, apologizing for the secrets too and revealing them, albeit their method is still questionable to spy and keep tracks on them. And Kimiko admitting she enjoyed Happy Spa. And the relation in Weekend wasn't only between Ushijimas and Igarashis, but also between Yukimi and Masumi, the former who remarked that Masumi survived, and is unfazed by that. Now this can signify Yukimi's importance just like Buu-san before.

Regarding Ikki being captured, this shows more of their newfound friendship that Vice is more concerned about Ikki disappearing in his berserk state, and Vice's old wish of being free is now treated as banter. But despite Ikki telling Vice to believe in him, it'd not be as easy as what's said of Vice still going berserk at the end, making him one of the current main threats, emotionally too. Jack Revice got buffed with the berserk mode at the end? As Jack Revice that time can repel Holy Live who beat Demons (and who beat Jack Revice before). For Daiji and Sakura's fight against Olteca and then Jack Revice, while Daiji has been shown to be dutiful soldier of Fenix that fights for people, this episode didn't only make Sakura fight alongside him but is also like-minded as well, to also vow to not let Olteca get away or the innocent civilians being killed. Guess this is also good to show actual characterization within her and not only fighting threats, to also become more altruistic (well, since her declaration to Hiromi alongside her siblings), if she changed from her edgy phase pre-Jeanne (though she was agreeing with well-intentioned people, but also their villainous methods). Oh, them being like minded here... but Sakura had joined Weekend while Daiji defended Fenix... so that could mean something later. Teased George's henshin as Demons... and him claiming to help the Igarashis later. But previously George excused himself of the group hug nonchalantly. That still brings up sus points for George to me.

Kagerou's demise being something like Makoto clone.

Personally I don't know about this. George did show legitimate concern towards Igarashis here, but he had shown concern towards them like to Ikki (the debut of Volcano Rex) before the reveal of Hiromi being a guinea pig, of which he gleefully discards Hiromi like a tool (only with the mitigating part of the claim of it being the best for Hiromi). Like it feels that George treats certain individuals differently at this case, of which he favors the Igarashis for some reason. It's a common (but not necessarily) mistake IMO to assume that someone previously shown morally questionable caring about someone as "caring about other human beings", like treating someone who fights for only their family as such when, it's really done only for family.

Official website has Demons standing alongside Jeanne and Live

Kinda hard to forgive the amount of people he's killed and enjoyed every moment of it. Because if he can make people miserable because he's a miserable sociopath he will do it. He must really hate seeing how the Igarashi fight for each other without question. Olteca probably would be jealous of lovekov and kick her off a cliff

I have given up on Fenix being tied to Foundation X. What a waste of a few seasons building that shadowy organization up for no payoff.

I wish Hiromi would be the new demon in the demons driver otherwise I can't see any other return of him that I would deem to be better.

The problem is that is not graphic enough to be noticeable in comparison. Plus unlike disposable faiz, kabuto motw, to elaborate multiple pedestrians zap in kuuga days somehow riders want resetand ressurrect everyone for happy ending or no mention like saber the poet guy consume a tower of souls.

honestly I feel like OTelca has done too much to be considered redeemable

That'll do it.

...

And I kind of hate it already :lol

Well Olteca claims to be the official Demons, but hey, I'll gladly accept George as the new official Demons! He could even be the new official Jeanne and he'd still be awesome!

Olteca is human though, right? He doesn't have his Driver or his Giftex form, so Kamen Riders can't in good conscience kill him when there might be a way to spare his life. After all, Ikki's and Daiji's agreement to share the burden only applied to Giftex, before Ikki obtained Volcano Rex's power to save them. Regarding Olteca's capacity for redemption, I can still see it happening, especially now that his tragic backstory has been elaborated on. His father was an a**hole for sure. However, Olteca's redemption must ultimately come down to whether or not he shows genuine remorse for his sins and a willingness to atone for them (without acting OOC like Mitsuzane). It's maybe not something I would have considered before, but if even a guy like Adel could be forgiven for everything he did, then there might still be hope for Olteca. It's the same for Gai, his tragic backstory is what turned him to evil, but his redemption only happened when he remembered why he wanted to become president of Hiden in the first place, cause he truly loved Hiden Intelligence from the bottom of his heart. Maybe Olteca loves something as well.

She did name the sento Shiawase Yu after all, so it makes sense that she would value people's happiness over telling the truth. I'm not defending her decision to keep Genta's origins secret from her kids, but I guess I can understand why she did it. I think she's still a great mother, as the voice of reason who helped a lot with their development, like Ikki needing more happiness and love. She even forgave Vice for trying to eat her. It's all thanks to her saving Genta from his past that the Igarashi family has been able to enjoy a happy life until now.

No offense but this is an even more blatant double standard between minor and major characters. If it's minor character doing fucked up things like Olteca's dad; then Burn Him Down? But if it's a major character doing fucked up things like Olteca here, far excessing being an asshole his father did; then it's not ok to fully condemn him? While it's true that Kamen Rider can't kill him if he's only human, it's due to them being living being (and human being weak thus it's not necessary) and not because there's good in him as a human? If it's acknowledged that paying evil unto evil is wrong, while the "paying evil" part is wrong but the "unto evil" part would still be there? No need to elevate someone (even a bit, if it's regarding Olteca, of treating as redeemable... while he goes escalating his crime further by stamping a child) to justify not killing them (it also happened in Tennoji for Blade, after he's reverted back to normal human, he had no redeeming qualities with others not being pleased of him being finished by Kanai, due to human but not due to there's good things about him, not about forgiving).

What I perceive as double standard here aside, I'd hope that this shows that tragic backstory here also can be used to flesh someone (him) out, to show where you can see how a character got to where they are, without downplaying their crimes or the consequences (as if those can be written off just by a sob story or something). Also without Olteca being killed if he's a human but putting him in a position that he can't harm anyone (he's teased to get upgrade next episode anyway).

Talking as if Adel is worse than Olteca or something.... Maybe he gets forgiven because though he did some horrible acts, he didn't reach Olteca's or other irredeemable villains levels' yet? Those irredeemable villains being people like Daguva, Ouja, Kitazaki, Minami, Mishima, Maki, Ryoma, Banno, Masamune, Evolt, Namba, Swartz... People actually like if a redemption story is handled well, such as Alain's, the complaint about Gai is about how forced, late, and rushed his 'redemption' was, not about a redemption going on. Actually I quite wonder if the 'redemption' is related to executive meddling or such, and they wanted to make Gai as despicable as they want, with ever escalating crimes in scale and spitefulness, and likely intending to make him as an irredeemable villain. While KR should strive to be heroic and teach good morals (a̶n̶d̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶v̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶a̶g̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶R̶e̶v̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶e̶p̶.̶ ̶2̶3̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶x̶i̶c̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶), if they want to make Gai redeemable it can be done better not just on the redemption part but on the whole show run.

I never said that Olteca's father should be burned down or anything like that though, just that he's an a**hole. I don't think he deserves to die either. If anybody does wish death on him, then yeah, I agree that would be a double standard. Same goes for Gai's father scolding his son for any imperfect results. They're terrible parents, but I think they should still be allowed to live, at least. For not killing humans, yeah, the goodness of humanity isn't applicable in this scenario, but it's just the innate value of Olteca's human life in general that Kamen Riders typically fight to protect. I admit, at this point in the show, the "unto evil" part of the equation is still in effect, as Olteca has yet to show any sign of changing. So my talk of his potential redemption is a hypothetical and separate topic.

In Tennouji's case (I like how I can talk about that now), it's not really fair for the Riders to project moral standards from their own human culture on to an Undead with no inclination to care about human life. I guess it could also be argued that Tennouji stopped being a human when he merged with an Undead.

I mean, Adel did commit patricide/regicide, attempted fratricide, frame his brother for patricide/regicide, murder Ryu and brainwash a lot of people in to submission, including his sister. If his acts don't put him on the same level as Olteca then he can't be that far behind. Like where do we draw the line? Is it quantifiable when a villain becomes irredeemable or is it a matter of personal perspective?

Sakuragi Nachi did say he wanted Gai to become hated on the same level as Kusaka and considered such hate to be praise. Even after his redemption, it's not like he's suddenly a totally different character as his big ego mostly stays the same, but now he's good and willing to admit the error of his ways. The characters still take a while to warm up to him after his apology, so they really make him work for that forgiveness the same way the viewers do. There were some hints to his tragic backstory, like him often calling Isamu a stray dog, which is symbolic of his affection for Thouzer and how Gai himself had strayed from his dream. Unfortunately, it was probably rushed due to you-know-what screwing up the production that year.

Burn Him Down was more of an emphasizing but I probably could've picked a better word yeah, my main point was about how if it's a minor character then their actions are (properly) emphasized more mercilessly and if it's major character then no matter how severe their actions, far more than said minor character, it's about emphasizing pity for them instead (actually there's an implication that Olteca's father abusing the mother too for "they're" terrible parents part). Granted that minor character would have less fleshing so their story isn't known, but still it gave me that vibe before (but you'd view it as separate topic for the redemption) to talk about pity for Olteca here or implying he may love something, compared to more merciless take to his father.

There are many other villains that aren't on irredeemable level in the franchise too, but still really nasty, like Tiger, Orchid Undead, TheBee Kageyama, Kai, Saeko (.. both Lucky Clover and Sonozaki), Kazari, Ora, etc. I'd think Adel's at best (worst) there, but not outright on the irredeemable ones like Banno's level (and Olteca's). To me targeting family there is terrible but it'd feel like targeting specific people that stands in his way (to usurp the throne) rather than indiscriminately which I feel is less worse. And yeah he did brainwash a lot of people, but to me it'd be scale-based (his power allowing him to affect more people), and it's like those villains who has ruling the world as a goal (though in Adel's case, becoming the world), and that's a mainstream goal but it won't make them irredeemable by default.

But otherwise, this is overall YMMV, but there are places where you can discuss drawing the line, or the villain quantifying, something like TVTropes' complete monster cleanup or similar one in pure evil discussions of villains wiki. I won't use personal perspective though.... because that can likely focus on deeds committed on major characters more (and yeah... family tend to be major character like Adel's above) or tolerate entertaining bad deeds that are actually worse than the more annoying bad deeds (like mass murdering which can ooze strength, compared to someone being a smug and making their face punchable). Personal perspective also can place annoying assholes as much worse than villains.

He had the 1000% sthick but it doesn't necessarily mean ego to me. He significantly acts more humble and submissive. He had moments of being surprised in his new position (basement) but it won't be ego as he didn't lash out or put down others around him for that (actually he never displayed ego anymore to others). I'd think while the redemption is terrible, how other characters process it is handled well (the one something that I like better there) as they don't minimize Gai's crimes, but that'd be praise for Aruto, Fuwa, and Yua instead, not about the series or Gai's redemption.

But otherwise, Olteca's father did much worse to him than Gai's father did (Gai's father is the Asian parents' bad stereotype, overly harsh but relatively more 'normal'/'mundane'), and it's used as Olteca further escalates his crimes instead here. If it'd be rushed at that point then just don't do it (the redemption), or the mistake is the production not bringing that up at Gai's buildup instead of him at late. And like human Olteca here, it doesn't need to be done by killing Gai to finish the job even if he's not redeemed. Even as a 'lesson' as per KR teaching morals, it would be a bad idea to use Gai's one as an example. Non-believable ones can instead drive them away the concept of redemption as it'd seem too ridiculous. A redemption done well would be praised like Alain's, no one criticizes that despite Ghost's reputation (Adel's "redemption" also can get criticism like Gai's at times btw, but again, not for Takeru or his family's characters there).

Sorry if I was unclear, by "they're", I was referring to Gai's and Olteca's individual fathers. Nothing against Olteca's mother. Gai's father would've preferred a super genius son like Olteca who could actually get those 1000% results. I think it's possible to pity Olteca without condoning his evil actions, as he only turned to Deadmans for a similar reason as Julio, to find somewhere he would be accepted when society rejected him. But it's like you say for Aguilera, a tragic backstory isn't a free pass for redemption. Characters still need to show through their actions that they're capable of changing for the better. My other beef with Olteca's father is that his physical abuse shows he doesn't truly love his son or respect his genius, beating him out of jealousy and spite. If a person doesn't receive love, then it's harder for them to give it, which explains why Olteca always acts so cold. He was denied that affection as a kid. Unless we consider his mother, but we don't have enough information yet.

I don't think Hikaru belongs in the same league as those other villains you mentioned, considering how she had a selfless and honorable side as well, compared to someone like Saeko who was only concerned with her own survival and even threw away her humanity. Adel was considered irredeemable in-universe though, since Onari claimed he shouldn't be forgiven for murdering Ryu. But Takeru's kindness was able to reach Adel's heart and show that he could still change and seek forgiveness, even after everything he did. I wonder if Takeru would react similarly to Olteca, trying to appeal to his heart.

I'd also put Gai's father in a higher moral position than Olteca's, for wanting his son to be successful and only expressing disappointment without resorting to aggression. He still sucks though. Even though Gai's redemption was a little rushed, I personally think Episode 38 gave it solid execution, at least. I think Sakuragi really sells that emotional scene with his powerful acting. I appreciate how post-redemption Gai feels like the same character, like a wiser version of himself who acknowledges his own fallibility, without losing his air of confidence and charisma. But I guess it's subjective whether or not his redemption was actually good. Sure, it doesn't compare to Alain, but that's like the golden standard for strong redemption arcs.