Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43192)

I actually adore the ending to this series. It does everything right that I've always wanted out of a rider show. Shinji's death was incredibly powerful. The wide-eyed heartfelt kid who just wanted to stop the fighting lost his life fighting and finally humanized Ren in a way that I wouldn't have thought possible.

Ren, my god Ren. After everything he's done and seen, for him to become the person he is by the final episode is beautiful. Watching Shinji die in his arms was painful that's for certain. And seeing him truly be outclassed by Odin in every way just goes to show that Kanzaki would not have begun the battle without the absolute assurance that his rider would win. Odins' existence is proof that Kanzaki had total control even if we didn't always think he did.

I actually love that the sort of fated Ouja/Zolda fight didn't happen. Kitaokas' death was great and subtle and I thought it was incredibly powerful that Goro took his place as zolda in the final fight. Ouja thought he finally obtained his victory only to find out that he had been completely bested. Ouja really came out as the best and most interesting character of the series. His death was the most interesting and, to me, the most tragic.

I can't even begin to express how much this series as a whole is good. It just grabs you and doesn't really let go aside from a few less than spectacular extra riders (looking at you Gai, Tiger, Imperor)

Originally Posted by Xion14 (Post 43196)

I decided to rewatch the last 10 minutes. It's been a year since I last saw it, but something about that scene of them with their child selfs still just gets me. Maybe it's just in the way I relate myself to the characters, and knowing the story is just starting.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43205)

To my knowledge, I think Shinji is the first titular Kamen Rider to die and more interestingly for it to be an out-of-suit death. Ren's reaction to Shinji dying in his arms was so strong and powerful that it made up for what an ass he was for most of the series.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43205)

To my knowledge, I think Shinji is the first titular Kamen Rider to die and more interestingly for it to be an out-of-suit death. Ren's reaction to Shinji dying in his arms was so strong and powerful that it made up for what an ass he was for most of the series.

Asakura's final stand was a little strange. Being cheated out of killing a man he had become obsessed with pushed him over the edge...truly a vexed individual.

In the end...I dunno. Would it have been better without the reset? It would have been dark as hell but I think it would have further cemented Ryuki's reputation as one of the most unique Rider series of this generation.

In hindsight I can more or less see why this show did not do well over in Japan especially with its target demographic being kids. The stories were rather dark, the main villain being Kanzaki Shirou wasn't a dude with a special form or the "ultimate badass" type character, maybe too much focus was placed on the secret between Yui and Kanzaki....In a way, this show is up there with GARO in terms of mature storytelling. I mean even Imperer's death was pretty fucked up in that scene where his fiancee is waiting for him not knowing he had become a notch on Asakura's belt.

This was the series that got me back into Toku. The X or Highlander of the Kamen Rider franchise.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43208)

On the subject of Asakura who is in my mind the greatest Villain in Heisei Rider mythos, I loved how the writers really pulled no punches in portraying him as utter scum.

Killing his own family in a fire, playing a traumatized scarred victim just to bait his brother to finish the job (Seriously...What the fuck?), destroying a talented pianist's career murdering Raia, murdering Gai, using a young girl as bait for his Mirror Monster hunt, murdering Imperer...And yet I find it hilarious that this guy could have a seat with Kitaoka and Ren to collectively mock Shinji. Also he seemed to like offering people food. Maybe because he doesn't like the idea of people going hungry. Strange character trait for a pure psychopath.

He was Kanzaki's ringer, the guy Kanzaki could rely on to thin the herd which was why his deck was rigged with three contract cards. Survive? Who needs Survive when you've got Unite! I love how they never bothered to give him a clearly defined objective or wish. He was there for the carnage. And I love him for it.

Originally Posted by Shin Densetsu (Post 43212)

I didn't know that the series didn't do so well in Japan. Just how well was it received? I do like how Tamashii Nations is giving it some love with SH Figuarts. DEFINITELY a god send for a guy like me who only started watching Ryuki relatively recently. When Kickback told me about what he was starting(which was this place), I had picked Ryuki as one of the 1st Rider series I would watch. I am glad I did. Prior to this I had only watched ZX, a few dubbed episodes in Tagalog of the original Kamen Rider, and a few episodes of Masked Rider when it was localized with that one dude back when MMPR was already popular.

I think it's downfall was the fights in particular, being predictable. For the 1st half of the series either the monster died or ran away, and if it did die, it was usually Ren or Shinji using Final Vent and if it ran away, it was running away from the Final Vent. Basically the fights became predictable.

This does change later aside from the Survive Card being somewhat of a deus ex machina. By the last episodes the fights are a lot less predictable. In this respect, I think the movie, Episode Final, excelled.

Simply put, the fights in the majority of the series, due to predictability, did not seem on par with the mature storytelling. The storytelling and characterizations is where this series excelled. To see the way Akiyama ended up in the end was a surprise. Even for Kitaoka, even Shinji said something to the matter of "well if he's fighting just to live then I can't really blame him anymore!". I loved how we got to know the characters just as Shinji did; his experience mirrored ours.

Speaking of dark..finding out that Yui was technically somewhat dead...nuts! The whole story was due to Shiro not being able to take loss.



I think Asakura's characterization was done on purpose by the writers. There have been some characters in Sentai/Rider series where they start bad, then turn good eventually, these tend to be bad asses sometimes. Being that Ren, Tezuka, Toujo(to an extent), and Kitaoka can all be seen as primarily good if not netural(like Kitaoka until the end when it's realized that he's not so much trying to live out a life of various wealth as much as he is just trying to live to begin with), I think the writers made Asakura THEE main bad guy. Simply because if not him, there would be no one else but Odin, and Odin just stands in place for Kanzaki Shiro since Kanzaki lacks a physical form.

Asakura is the bad guy to end up liking, like Magneto and others. For me, seeing him take out all those Riders left me wanting to see someone kick his ass. Asakura was entertaining because he was deadly and unpredictable. I remember when he pulled out his extra contract cards and was like "WTF?! He has more than Jun!". Then when he pulled out Unite Vent I was like "Alright WTF x 10 that's not even fair!".

Asakura managed to kill the biggest dick in the series(Gai), and the most peaceful(Tezuka). By way of karma he was going to bite it one way or another.

I did like how the moments where it seemed like Asakura had a heart, he shoves a nail right through it. THAT is excellent storytelling by way of the writers.

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43228)

Definitely. Asakura is a prime badass and evil SOB. He's by far my favorite evil rider ever. He killed Gai and Imperor which makes me love him more and if he could've taken out Tiger that would have been icing on the cake. Ouja essentially became the device by which Kanzaki eliminated the weakest links. He managed to be so purely evil and yet so rediculously likable that he came out on top as my favorite character in the series. Now that's damn good writing when you wind up liking the villain more so than the heroes.

Originally Posted by Electric Turahk (Post 43264)

But the way you guys are talking, that was the actual ending. Was there something I missed indicating this was really Ren's wish?

As an aside, I don't think anyone but Ren remembered what happened. Shinji was still painfully oblivious to everything. It was just Ren, a stranger now, treating him so strangely that elicited hisi "wait what's going on?" reaction.

Originally Posted by MidoGreen (Post 43277)

confirmed Kanzaki had the power of the reset button on his side. He doesn't like the outcome, start over.

Originally Posted by Dr Kain (Post 43286)

Nope, they hit the reset button to make everything all right. Yui did not want to live in a world where people would have to die for her to survive, so she and Shiro changed history so that they died in the fire of the house, making it so none of the Rider battle or even the mirror monsters existed.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43296)

The reset is a debate I'd rather not get into. But of the 4 possible endings of Ryuki, this was probably the least depressing so I can accept it. The Movie ending was just as dark and the two TV Special endings were so twisted that I hope neither were canonical.

Originally Posted by Switchblade (Post 43304)

Technically, all the endings can be considered canon. The idea is that Kanzaki tried to use the Rider War to save Yui's life multiple times, but each time he failed and ended up using Odin's Time Vent to rewind time and start over. Episode Final and 13 Riders were earlier versions of the Rider War that subsequently got wound back and done over. The series is the final version as it ends with Kanzaki accepting that Yui doesn't want him to save her like this so they go and draw with crayons forever.

Originally Posted by Switchblade (Post 43304)

Technically, all the endings can be considered canon. The idea is that Kanzaki tried to use the Rider War to save Yui's life multiple times, but each time he failed and ended up using Odin's Time Vent to rewind time and start over. Episode Final and 13 Riders were earlier versions of the Rider War that subsequently got wound back and done over. The series is the final version as it ends with Kanzaki accepting that Yui doesn't want him to save her like this so they go and draw with crayons forever.

Originally Posted by Shin Densetsu (Post 43337)

From what I saw, once the reset was done Shiro lives but dies in the US while Yui stayed dead as a childd.

It's implied that once Ren put the ring on Eri's finger, he died.

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43356)

I used to look at the happy montage as the way their lives could've played out had the Rider Battle not happened. Now I really do see it as the reset. Once Kanzaki realized that Yui was happier having died in the fire I think this was his gift to the riders. Bringing them all back and giving them a second chance. I don't think Ren's victory or wish had anything to do with it. This was all on Kanzaki.

Originally Posted by Shin Densetsu (Post 43417)

I think Ren only won because Odin got confused and went haywire once Yui begged Shiro to stop. Up until that point, Odin had the upper hand and was winning against Ren, wearing him out.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43472)

So if someone were to establish a loose "timeline" of Ryuki, would it be:

13 Riders → Episode Final → TV Series

Yeah, Odin had that fight won but whatever Kanzaki was feeling affected the flow of the fight.

Regarding Shinji's character. Despite being for all intents and purposes a wuss for a vast majority of the series, Shinji never once lost track of what his mission was: To stop the Rider War and avert civilian deaths from the Mirror Monsters. Painfully naive, I think Shinji's story was in fact the most tragic of the Riders. His background is never fleshed out aside from his occupation of being an amateur journalist but I don't think they needed to because he was meant to be the everyman trying to do the right thing...only to have the right thing blow up in his face over and over again. From being used by the Room 401 crew to being mocked constantly by Ren and even forced to dress up as a French maid by Kitaoka...he had it pretty rough. But he never lost sight of his goal without going into a ridiculous monologue or explanation of why he is right. Shinji often gets dismissed as being the least interesting of the Ryuki characters despite being the title Rider but I think he complimented the others. He was the conscience of the show in the face of desperation and ambition.

Originally Posted by Dr Kain (Post 43501)

I don't count Episode Final or 13 Riders as canon. First off, 13 Riders did not have an ending, with either ending. You either get an ending with Shinji just standing there ready to battle or an ending with Shinji being taunted. Plus, the personalities of the characters were way too off. As for Episode Final, it does not fit no matter how you slice it. You either have to look at it as before Tiger, but that isn't possible, because Impaler would also not have been there. Or you have to look at it after Tiger, but again, impossible since Shinji knew the truth about Yui before Tiger died.

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43431)

Oh no I totally agree. But I don't think Ren got the better of Odin while he was off his game. Kanzaki decided that the battle was over so he 'turned off' Odin and let Ren win. But the happy ending montage is not a result of Ren's wish or his victory, it's just the result of Kanzaki never starting the Rider Battle.

Originally Posted by badlander86 (Post 43472)

So if someone were to establish a loose "timeline" of Ryuki, would it be:

13 Riders → Episode Final → TV Series

Yeah, Odin had that fight won but whatever Kanzaki was feeling affected the flow of the fight.

Regarding Shinji's character. Despite being for all intents and purposes a wuss for a vast majority of the series, Shinji never once lost track of what his mission was: To stop the Rider War and avert civilian deaths from the Mirror Monsters. Painfully naive, I think Shinji's story was in fact the most tragic of the Riders. His background is never fleshed out aside from his occupation of being an amateur journalist but I don't think they needed to because he was meant to be the everyman trying to do the right thing...only to have the right thing blow up in his face over and over again. From being used by the Room 401 crew to being mocked constantly by Ren and even forced to dress up as a French maid by Kitaoka...he had it pretty rough. But he never lost sight of his goal without going into a ridiculous monologue or explanation of why he is right. Shinji often gets dismissed as being the least interesting of the Ryuki characters despite being the title Rider but I think he complimented the others. He was the conscience of the show in the face of desperation and ambition.

Originally Posted by Dr Kain (Post 43501)

I don't count Episode Final or 13 Riders as canon. First off, 13 Riders did not have an ending, with either ending. You either get an ending with Shinji just standing there ready to battle or an ending with Shinji being taunted. Plus, the personalities of the characters were way too off. As for Episode Final, it does not fit no matter how you slice it. You either have to look at it as before Tiger, but that isn't possible, because Impaler would also not have been there. Or you have to look at it after Tiger, but again, impossible since Shinji knew the truth about Yui before Tiger died.

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43525)

Well yeah that's the point dude. They aren't cannon with the TV series in the sense that they fit with it. They are the previous realities attempted by Kanzaki. They're just failed attempts by him before the TV series plot. The characters aren't supposed to be the same because the reality isn't the same.

Originally Posted by Shin Densetsu (Post 43887)

Oh the result of Ren winning was Ogawa Eri recovering from coma, however it's implied that in doing so, it cost Ren his own life. The happy ending montage I figured was Kanzaki letting up and righting "time" so that Yui stayed dead as she wished, and the Rider War never started.

Dude we're pretty much saying the same things with different words/phrases lol.



Dude, well said about Shinji. His growth through the course of the show only reinforced my opinion that his experience in that series was supposed to parallel with the viewers'; while the rest of the cast knew the ways of the Mirror World, Shinji didn't, and we got to experience it just as he did. Shinji's innocence and idealism made his death even more tragic. As Akiyama even admitted, Shinji was the one that needed to survive, and because he didn't, it may have left Ren feeling that even if he was going to lose, he still had to fight the last fight with Odin, and never give up.



13 Riders had an ending that was voted for by viewers, the ending that won out was Shinji taking on the surviving riders as Kamen Rider Knight Survive, outcome unknown.

I think Episode Final was an ending aimed at fans who didn't want a "reset" ending like the TV series.



I see 13 Riders and Episode Final the same way some OVA's are compared to anime series; alternate retellings of the story with differences. For example the Escaflowne movie was very different from the TV series.

I got a question for you guys, with regards to winning and losing, Akiyama realized that it was hard for him to strike the last blow, whereas for Shinji, the same thing happened when he fought Akiyama to a stand still and had the upper hand. Do you think Shinji evolved into the better fighter?

Also I get confused, Shinji realized his wish towards the end after talking to Okubo, who reinforces his belief to do the right thing. At some point Shinji wants to seal the Mirror World, the same goal Kagawa was after(although Kagawa wanted to take out Yui in doing so). So...

What was Shinji's wish at the end of the series?

Originally Posted by Den-O (Post 43891)

Actually I think this quote may say it best:



Shinji lost protecting Yui, his only outlet for the battle. Without her he had nothing lef to protect or fight for. A betrayal of the only reason he exists as a rider. He couldn't see himself that way though. Even with no true reason to fight he knew he had to continue. He ratained a strong will until his death. He had nothing to give, no one to give anything too, but his will to fight was stronger than any reason the other riders may have had for battle. Maybe it was Shinjis' wish for the reset. Maybe he thought the others deserved that, maybe that's why he was willing to sacrifice his life. He did say once when he fought Odin that if Kamen Riders protect people that it was also possible for him as a Rider to protect other Riders.

1 billion forum points to anyone who knows who I quoted.