Redemption ark. Yes, no or only if...
 

The characters in the shows develop, change, and actions can be transformed again before the finale. It?s not uncommon for someone who starts out as an enemy to end up as a friend. Redemption ark is an extremely popular technique. It gave the writer chance to preserve a popular and attractive antagonist character, without turning his story upside down. That?s why I want to know, when, in your opinion, this redemption is correct and well done.
In the discussion, you can write how, in your opinion, positive characters should react to a reformed antagonist. And also what actions should never be forgiven.
P.S. You can also provide examples of successful redemptions. And terrible ones.
P.P.S. This is my first poll, so I'm hoping for some activity.

I like a redemption arc as long as it doesn't break my suspension of disbelief. If I can't see enough redeeming qualities to make a bad guy turn good, but the plot does it anyway, then it doesn't work for me. Even if it's only something in one episode that has strong execution, then I can sympathize.

Examples of redemption arcs I like:

• Amatsu Gai
• Horobi
• Heure
• Himuro Gentoku
• every former villain in Ghost

Examples of redemption arcs I dislike:

• Kureshima Mitsuzane (worst, IMO)
• Isuzu Daichi
• Aguilera
• Kamijo Mutsuki

Congrats on your first poll!

What's wrong with Mutsuki's redemption arc? I'm curious.

Also, my personal favorite redemption arc is Rio's, from Gekiranger. Mainly because he ultimately knows he doesn't deserve it. He got played and manipulated by Long, but he knows that he's done too much to justify that as a reasoning for his actions.
He was even willing to let GekiBlue kill him before his self sacrifice.

And for a redemption arc that I disliked, Abare Killer. But considering he was only redeemed last minute because of Bandai's pressure thanks to his poor toy sales, I can understand.

In general, I enjoy a redemption arc. It helps give depth to a former villain when they see how their actions have caused so much misery. I just dislike when they get a free pass for being an awful person because they helped punch a worse enemy.

To be fair, I actually enjoyed Mutsuki's interactions with Hikaru that made him introspect more about what he wanted. Mostly, I was disappointed with how his change of heart was caused by a failed King Form change, instead of any of the strong character development that led up to that, which is what I thought the show was trying to do. So, I liked the arc, but not the conclusion. Does that make sense?

I don't think the option I'd want applies to anything in the poll, what I want in a redemption arc is for it to feel believable and deserved, Rogue's felt believable as he's a broken man realizing what he'd done under the effects of Pandora's Box and wanting to make things right. It makes sense for a character who was brainwashed into doing stuff against his values to actively do the opposite. Michinaga from Geats is also a good example, for he realized that his goals and Geats' aligned meaning it was in his best interest to go on the path of righteousness.

A bad example to me is Amatsu Gai, for both reasons why a redemption can feel flat imo, for starters, it feels very sudden, he's directly antagonized and attempted to murder Aruto throughout the show but suddenly he tells us his dad was strict and now he's a good guy which doesn't feel like enough of a reason to make him such a bastard as he's shown to be like 30 years later. The bigger reason is that it feels entirely unearned. This man has canonically been shown committing series crimes by endangering people, destroying evidence to cover up his own crimes, attempted murder, sexual harassment and oh, you know, being the cause of everything bad that happens in the show? He never really faces any consequences for this nor does it feel like he's truly regretful of all of his heinous acts but rather realized "Oh shit Ark would kill me too, better fight the thing I specifically made to try and wipe out humanity before it wipes out humanity". It's like they saw his toys weren't selling and tried to make him a good guy so that kids would suddenly like him

Thank you for your opinion.
Personally, I always perceived the villainous Mitsuki as possessed, so I have no complaints about his healing. As for Michy, I have always treated him quite leniently because of the way the actor puts himself into this role. Another thing is that all in the show is very polite with this character. Perhaps, if the main villain of the crossover with Drive had turned out to be the robotic Michy from the future, this would have turned out to be the best epilogue for the character.

Thank you for your opinion. I couldn't check this option because it's unlikely that anyone would claim to love "implausible" redemptions. Although in the case of Michinaga, I think that the main reason was not the common goal, but the understanding that he would not be able to achieve it. Unlike Ace. At the end of Desire Royal, being invulnerable and choosing to keep fighting meant nothing. Man may rise high, but he will never be equal to God. At least that's what Geats claims. While we don't yet know what will happen in the crossover with Gotchard, the alchemists may have a few cards up their sleeve.

I mean, "Yes but only if it feels justified" is a neat way to say it.


I mean. Michinaga's goal was to have the power to crush any Kamen Rider, forcing them out of the DGP to spare them the pain, death and suffering it causes with a 'the end justifies the means' attitude, realizing that Geats isn't just some glamorous fop but rather someone who after getting closure wanted to make a world where the DGP had no reason to exist meant that he could achieve his endgoal without having to sacrifice and trample over others, showing he doesn't like the things he did per se but rather felt they were truly needed. I don't get how you can read that as "Welp, I'm not able to do what I wanted, time to be friendly with a guy I have a venomous hate boner for just because he's stronger than me despite this happening constantly"

Out of curiosity, Parad's redemption arc, yay or nay.

I think Parado's redemption would've worked a lot better if he didn't literally kill several Ride Players.
It made it such an uneasy pill to swallow that everyone accepted him so willingly even after he did that, since there was no coming back for them.

I enjoy a good redemption story when it feels like the show has earned it. My preference is something that develops over the course of several episodes or plays off of established events or relationships, like Hana's love for Sakura bringing her to join the heroes or Juggler growing attached to the crew of STORAGE. I can also accept something like Chase's story, where there's amnesia or a suppressed true identity involved, provided the show pulls it off well.

Stories where the face turn feels too abrupt, unexplained, or forced don't work for me, though. I think Gai is the poster boy for this kind of forced redemption: dude was an all-out villain, but then he got a new robot dog toy and all of a sudden he was Aruto's best bud. It didn't make sense within the context of the narrative and felt like he only switched sides because the show was done with him as a villain.

I totally forgot about that part, holy crud. I think you're right that even a small scene of Parado acknowledging that what he did was wrong because he now understood what it's like to have only 1 life/die would've helped a lot.

I would say that this is expected, because Parado is part of Emu and reconciliation in one sense or another between them should have taken place. Another thing is that the writers could not leave Parado a physical body, making him, like Takumi Katsuragi, a voice in Emu's head.

The thing with Parad is that he's extremely childish and did not quite understand mortality until finding out he was now mortal after Chronos appeared, the fact the killed Ride Players could still be saved might have been added afterwards to make it make sense but the idea of a petty child wanting revenge for being what he likely sees as being bullied and not realizing the consequences of his actions does work imo

I mean, the Thouzer merchandise is just really lame. Gai makes a big deal about how his Rider System uses two Keys, but Awaking Arsino is literally just a piece of black plastic that hits a button. Although it's totally fitting that Gai would oversell his cheap quality ZAIA products to con people, haha.

Otherwise, I was prepared to go in to that redemption episode expecting to hate it, but honestly, I thought it was surprisingly emotional and tragic. I know some people weren't so easily convinced though, so, to each their own, I guess. However, I also think Gai received more punishment than people acknowledge. He's genuinely trying hard to atone for the mess he and ZAIA made, but other than Thouzer and Rin, nobody gives him a chance to prove he's changed and they continue to ostracize him for his past actions.

Mutsuki was possessed, but after they used Shima to counter Spider Undead's evil influence, it seemed to merge them so that Mutsuki had more control and now he was just a conflicted a**hole instead of an evil puppet. His interactions with Hikaru have him becoming gradually softer as he realizes that being alone and relying on nobody doesn't actually make him better, just more miserable. I'd say that Mutsuki and Hikaru have a similar dynamic to Ren and Desast, but where Ren's development comes from learning to accept himself like Desast does, Mutsuki's comes from Hikaru willingly being sealed to exorcise the remaining Spider evilness, which makes her look cool, but not so much for Mutsuki, who once more needs someone else to solve his problem for him. It's a great arc for Hikaru, but a bad one for Mutsuki.

I also enjoyed the performance of Takasugi, which he has since improved on further in J-dramas. However, a talented performance can still be diminished if the material is terrible, like what Hyuuga had to work with for Revice. Takasugi succeeded in depicting a truly evil and despicable character driven to madness by greed and lust, so I can only blame Urobuchi for thinking he could turn that character in to someone I could forgive or sympathize with. I won't.

Did he kill kill them though? I recall that all the Bugster victims were just turned in to data that can be restored by advanced medical treatment, with Kiriya being the first successful patient in Another Ending.

Speaking of Thouser, I think many people want official punishment for him. That is, if he had helped the heroes and Zero-One went to prison at the end, his redemption would have been received much better. That is, Orteca is not hated that much, despite the fact that he does not even repent. Unfortunately for Amatsu, he appears too often for anti-viewers to even cool down on him.

I really really enjoyed Necrom's arc in Ghost. The show wasn't perfect but that arc sucked me in.

Agree. Thank you for your opinion.

I'm assuming those examples are from post series stuff as I don't remember them at all and my only experience with those was rocking a wiki on the Real Eyes movie in which Gai explicitly caused another character's tragic backstory (That's like, the 5th Rider he did this too I think) but could you elaborate? Again, seeing as how he was the cause of everything bad that ever happens in the show, what exactly has he done to prove he's earned the right to let this go unpunished? What punishments did he receive other than getting pantsed by Naki?

You mean RealTime? I don't recall which other Rider apparently owed their tragic backstory to Gai's actions, but considering how he caused the destruction of an entire city, there's probably a lot of people who could claim that. But yeah, I'm referring to post-show content, where he suffers some misfortune. He tried to reform ZAIA in to a good ethical company, but Isamu and Yua don't take him seriously and Metsuboujinrai blew it up before he could make any real progress. He tried to start from zero with his new company, Thouzer Intellion, but (and I'm not making this up) he got infected with Shin Dan Kuroto Kami-sama, who revived again and forcefully took over his position as president.

The third option I guess - when I can trace how the character came to this. It'd be what I'm fine for if there are already setups before. The damages a villain cause isn't necessarily a measure on how evil they're, it'd be more of how powerful or competent they're. Typically anti-villainous characters would be easier to believably change due to them already having some virtues before, which is already a setup for their change. I think it'd be harder (but not impossible, except for cases below) to trace a straight villain changing by themselves as they often look down on virtue, and often media don't give convincing arguments to uphold virtue.

Though generally if a character has crossed pure evil territory in their crimes (not merely them causing huge damage, btw), it should be at best them being forced for mutual benefit if they want a teamup between them and the heroes, which'd be not actually redeemed, what I'm sick of is people treating benefitting, good outcomes, or little decency/amiable of their as being good, which is the usual move of justifying villains by over-rewarding them, and overlooking the fact that evil vs evil is a thing.

If they want to "stop" these kind of villain's threats, without killing them, it should not be them realizing and changing themselves IMO, but merely being "tamed" and thus retired, or at the very least, due to outside influence like no past memories (e.g. Sougo remaking Time Jacker's life from scratch). Inversely, it'd not be a redemption if a character is only evil due to outside influence, like being brainwashed, such as berserk forms, they never did anything wrong even if they'd feel regret for it.

This'd be probably a wild assumption about you, but I sometimes can have thought that you'd want for all villains, of any kind, to get changed, because it can seem to me that in KR you prioritize paragons (e.g. most main Riders) changing and developing people around them for the better, and if you didn't get that, you'd blame the "supposed" paragon instead, because everyone is capable of change without exceptions. At least coming from you disagreeing with Ryuki's ending of it negating the changes happened to the Riders even if it'd revert the countless Rider War victims, but media often depicting mercy for a room of change as letting villains go, also gives a vibe of prioritizing change over the safety of people - it's worth the cost of to make them change no matter how long it is... I'd want to know more regarding redemptions you won't agree with, but other than those done in shows you dislike (Gaim, Revice) - I thought by this before you may not rank Geats above Zero-One with you listing 2 of latter's examples below.

The reason you'd disagree with Micchy's redemption is because of the sheer crimes he committed? (I do think that he can fit pure evil too, but I'd be actually fine if they leave them being subdued at the end of ep. 46, rather than resolution at ep. 47) Or because there'd be other reason? (I'd hope you can be objective on this, regardless of it being Gaim) Because Gai's crimes rival Micchy's in scale with practically zero positive traits (like Ryoma) to 'balance'. Gai has corporate sabotage, conspiracy, genocide, vandalism, treason, abuse, incrimination, obstruction of justice, brainwashing, torture, terrorism, and the 1843 complaints involving age spoofing, faking reasons of absence, illegal auction bidding, illicit sales, misappropriation of company finances for personal benefit, plagiarizing technology, ossession of a fake bank account, sexual/moral harassment, tax evasion, etc.

I wonder how'd you refer (other than Evolt fighting Killbus) to Kuroto (True Ending or Another Ending's Zombie Survival) or Masamune's (pleading for Kiriya to stop Kuroto) last seen actions. There are enough people who point out Kuroto wasn't redeemed and Daichi should be given similar treatment (he's the type to only do good for benefit by then too). The only change would be him treating the Jamatos better, and done for plot irony in Riders being now the threats and Jamatos being defenders - perhaps the equivalent can be Kuroto treating Poppy better and shielded her from an attack.

The regretful part is shown in him apologizing to others with a bow.... "Ark would kill me too" sounds like characters like Kuroto which actually never repented - and what would make sense more and likely less hated tbh.

Even if he'd prefer force Riders out, he'd not bat an eye if Riders died in his pursuit of goals (like Shirowe), including if he directly throws them under the bus (Keiwa, Ace, Niramu), if it can get closer to his plans. Before he'd also have no qualms murdering Neon because she was infected (he'd also wish her dead after she got cured) which carries over in how he approaches the phase 2 Jamatos. Though Ace's real circumstances behind his wishes manages to have him gradually let go of his worldview, it's not that what Michinaga did was what's necessary and needed, but it was him being blinded by his cynicism, to be so caught up in his negative bias, always assuming the worst in others and doing what "needs" to be done. Cynicism isn't the sensible approach people make it out to be (often being lauded over idealism), it's a dogmatic and narrow-minded view with unearned sense of superiority that leads to laziness, negligence, cruelty and callousness, even if you mean well.

Can't be redeemed if they have never done wrong/bad things before. Reversible outcomes or not doesn't make something not bad (e.g. being stopped at attempted murder won't make them innocent). If they've been bad before by their own volition, they'd be redeemed if they realize they're wrong and want to change for good.

It's maybe because he's in better place than the actual main cast, getting his Driver back, has multiple Thousers, and being in overall steady place, by comparison to the main protagonists (or even other former villains) - MetsubouJinrai.net are all killed, Fuwa is possibly dead, Yua can't henshin and likely loses Fuwa, and Aruto likely has his efforts and visions crushed by Lyon's victory.

Fuwa's implanted false memories were done because of Gai and even if they were real, the event that would have lead up to them would still be Gai's fault, Aruto losing his Humagear parent happened due to Gai's shenanigans iirc, Yua was clearly extremely unhappy working under him while having the chip in her head to force her obedience (plus the implication of her being a victim of sexual harassment exists), Jin, Horobi and Ikazuchi would have never become evil if Gai didn't have an absurd reaction to having a strict father which ended up with him in a massive position of wealth and power, I don't remember Naki's deal off the top of my head but he/they was used as part of Fuwa's false memories and I think Eden or Lucifer's wife died due to infected nanomachines which of course, Gai was to blame for them getting infected.

Fuwa and Yua have good reason to doubt his sincerity as I already explained and although I haven't seen the post series stuff so this is clearly just how it sounds to me, but Gai is wealthy so it seems to me that when starting a new company, he was in a significantly better shape than Aruto was when Gai forced him out of Hiden Industries. Getting infected by Dan the Man is fucking hilarious though and I welcome it, he does seem to actively be trying to atone but everything he did feels waaaay too big to ever make up for in his lifetime.

Also, bringing up Kuroto is interesting here, he doesn't really *have* a redemption arc and is pretty much held on to a leash by the heroes, who still very much don't like him, while also holding a grudge against his dad which might have been a good motivator for him to be with the heroes for a while. I think the key difference is that while Kuroto technically had noble intentions if I remember correctly, he never really gets this redemption arc but is still a total dickweed the entire time whereas Gai has been a massive asshole only to turn to the camera and go "waaah my dad was strict so I'm not evil anymore". I can guarantee that Gai would have been more popular if he just stayed a villain the entire time, instead they pulled a Gangrel and nobody likes it when that happens lmao, haven't seen post series Ex-Aid stuff either so I don't know all the details that well tbf



I agree that what Michinaga did was undeniably bad, the guy himself agrees that he's a hypocrite in that regard but that's part of why he's so interesting to me, he does a lot of bad shit to achieve his goal but it doesn't seem like he gets any enjoyment out of it outside of wanting to wipe Ace's smug smile off his face as he could not beat him, Michinaga did what he felt was needed even though he clearly got quite a few people killed because of his actions, I think the reason he feels particularly bad about getting Sara killed because by then, he found out there was another way beyond having like, a large scale trolley problem. Personally, I would have added a scene of Michinaga breaking down after realizing just how much he screwed up and added to people's suffering just because he hadn't realized sooner that another way was possible but I'm also a sucker for "My god, what have I done?" Shit being done right lol. Fantastic writeup, I could not have written that better myself

Well, Asakura doesn't look happy either. And the king from Kiva rampaged with a sad, offended face, and the recent Akaishi in the end turned out to be an unhappy lonely man (although before that he smiled like the Joker), and even in Geats Girori himself does not seem particularly happy. The suffering villain is a fairly common type.

Sorry, can you explain the difference between the third and fourth options in the poll?

The third option is when the audience sees the villain's path to the light side. That is, the viewers sees when he begins to doubt, sees why, sees changes in him and that very transition. But at the same time, all this can only happen in the character?s head and he may not interfere in events or continue to play the role of an antagonist before fully became good. The fourth is about actions. The character apologizes, helps, saves people. What is in his head in this version is secondary, because everything is in plain sight.

No offense but I think there has to be a deliberate attempt at media illiteracy here if you're comparing someone who kills because he enjoys killing people without a shred of regret other than not being able to kill the man he wants to violently murder out of revenge as he's a violent sociopath to someone who did what he thought was needed to save the world and was deeply upset at causing another death after finding another way. Girori wanted Kamen Riders to be virtuous heroes and was upset by Geats not fitting his vision of an ideal Kamen Rider while also constantly winning which risked making his show boring, meaning he saw Geats as a threat to his business. These examples aren't very comparable

Same this and the fact him and Kuroto never really face any repercussions for their actions is why I Didn't like either of it

Even when I want a character to receive a redemption arc and it actually happens, that doesn't necessarily mean I'll agree with the execution. Like, I already explained about Mutsuki and there's an even worse example with Aguilera. You're right that I appreciate the true heroes who help to change people for the better and thus expect them to honestly represent the values they preach. However, I've come to realize that sometimes there are people who the hero cannot change no matter how hard they try, as some people are okay with being villains and don't want to change. Regarding my Reiwa Rider Ranking, redemption arcs aren't the only criteria for my enjoyment of a show. Saber and Geats get a big advantage simply for not having a Work Competition arc.

Motive is important. I know you don't put much stake in tragic backstories, but I believe they can be used to gain insight in to a person's actions and how to potentially redeem them. So, while Gai and Mitsuzane both have a ridiculously long list of crimes, I can sympathize with Gai due to seeing how he ended up like that and the moral he needed to learn from his past so that he could turn his life around. He felt pressured to live up to his father's impossible 1000% expectations and didn't realize how much he lost touch with his morality until it was too late. Now, Mitsuzane's motive, on the other hand, is Mai. He may not be the only yandere in the franchise, but even Kusaka (Happy Kaixa Day!) would draw the line at sacrificing humanity since he canonically only ever kills Orphenochs.

I'd refer to Kuroto as an antivillain and Masamune as a villain. While Kuroto does engage in petty behavior, like infecting Emu for sending fanmail, he was serious about saving Sakurako and helped to create the cure to revive the Bugster victims, albeit using means that were too extreme and not without consequence, as Kiriya points out that Jungo's suicide is something that Kuroto cannot undo. Masamune is much more depraved though, as he showed no remorse for deleting Saki's data as punishment and probably only sided with Kiriya out of spite for his son.

I mean, Gai is a very young-looking 45 year-old, so you might be underestimating his longevity.

I'm aware, but even if he was just as rich and powerful in his early 20's it wouldn't matter as again, he's done too much wrong for such a cheap redemption arc and he got Gangrel'ed which is a shame, I hated him when the show was airing but because he was such a fantastic villain that was able to make everyone in the fandom agree he's a massive asshole but for such a barebones tragic backstory that honestly doesn't explain jack shit as to why he did what he did. I can understand having a childhood filled with immense pressure like that can be very mentally damaging but it just doesn't make sense to me to have a character like that nearly wipe out the entire planet

Then there is still Akaishi, who believed that submitting to Giff was the only way to save humanity. Moreover, his position is even more justified, because it has worked for centuries.
By the way, even if it?s off topic: it seemed to me that all Girori?s chatter about saving the world was empty chatter to lure more heroic guys into the show. That is, Hotaro or Eiji would most likely refuse to participate in the DGP because they have nothing to write on a piece of paper for wishes, but they would definitely take part in saving the world. However, many viewers, and the show itself, judging by the final episodes, take his words at face value. Maybe it's a cultural difference, but it doesn't work for me.How can one admire the heroism of the riders if they are essentially playing in the sandbox he created? How can you call them ?saviors of the world? if the main threat to this world is your game? That is, by allowing Dapan to participate, Girori literally personally added the option of the apocalypse to the list of options for the final of the DGP. So for me, his speeches about the heroism of the riders are the same as admiration for animals from a poacher.

I won't comment on Akaishi for I haven't seen Revice meaning I cannot judge it fairly at all but the Jamato are seperate from the DGP. Like, after the DGP gets dissolved, they still exist and have potential for evil. That's all Girori needs to want the typical virtuous heroes in his game

But he literally called Archimedel on the phone to ask him to lower the difficulty level for the riders. Also, for a fan of "good heroes" his games had the most bad riders compared to DesaStar and Desire Royal from the crossover.

They still aren't one and the same nor does that contradict the way Girori prefers his show to go, he cannot control the contestents, trying to meddle with Geats for his winstreak caused what, exactly?

Maybe it makes some sense, but to me it's like a Shocker trooper wearing an "I love Kamen Riders" T-shirt. Just not that funny.
Also no, he can control the participants. One of the episodes literally ended with the rule: “The participants are chosen by the DGP Gamemaster.” Ace, with his desire to play to death, ensured his constant participation and thereby partially escaped Girori's control. Maybe it is the excessive freedom of the permanent champion that is the reason for the negative attitude, and not his personality? And yes, Girori told Keiwa that he wants his wish to come true, but the reason may be the same increase in interest in the show. So many former players will return and can be re-recruited, ratings will obviously jump.

I was trying to think about some of my favorite redemption arcs I've seen in tokusatsu and you know which two came to mind most readily for ones I liked? Alain in Ghost. Alain's is something I think even Ghost dislikers such as myself can find a lot to enjoy in, even if he gets a lot less focus later on. I think what makes Alain so striking is how believable his initial callousness is due to his background and also his slow process of coming around. I'm sure there are more I liked but that one really stuck with me!

Agree. Thank you for your opinion.

Ok I'll admit I forgot that one rule which muddies things but seeing as the DGP is still about saving people, Girori isn't a contradiction

Yeah yeah, we all know that these type of characters are interesting, just hoping that they can be liked without them getting their bad traits justified or downplayed. I do wish that said trolley problem is seen by fandom as only that character's personal thoughts, instead of viewing it as the one hard truth. Villain's words seem to be always taken in face value, people can see everything as either/or situation, that following their words the choice is only to let the biggest baddies destroy the world or let someone stop them even if they'd also murder many (and bash the 'naive' heroes for opposing them... why their plans are seen as guaranteed to succeed anyway).

Otherwise, my focus here was on the cynical worldview itself - of which said view is often viewed as being sensible, "logical", and realistic, when it can be just the cynical people being so lazy and faithless to be so used to acting a certain way, never considered another option, or never even thought another option was possible - which can mean, it's only them rationalizing their actions or proving they?re in the right (this one's just egotistic). Cynicism is a dogmatic and narrow-minded view that leans on negative bias, Michi is too lazy to consider another option and just goes for the easiest solutions while refusing to have his belief challenged for most of the series (while he acknowledged his hypocrisy, he still deflects blames thrown on him if others point it out).

Do people actually forget that, the DGP is the one that created the Jamatos?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...1096/image.png

Do you actually believe in DGP's bogus claims of saving the world (and Girori claiming that he'd want to contribute for world peace and that he's like Mamoru Shima or Wakabayashi or such)? Just because Archimedel has his own agendas and wants/plans to rebel, doesn't mean that Archimedel wasn't a part of the DGP, DGP obviously should have someone in charge of developing them. You can create Jamatos outside of the DGP if you know how... but doesn't mean that it's always separate from DGP like Humagears to ZAIA.

Girori calls Archimedel to send Jamatos after people, then claims that the Jamato has invaded. He doesn't want to stop the Jamatos, he only wants to moderate them so that they won't be too strong to beat the Riders. He wants a display of the Riders' heroism by creating war and having the public get attacked by Jamatos. For the entertainment of the audiences (who like heroism), like many other future people, just that he's the type to want to give "good ending" for the audience, but he still treats this world and real people as plaything too. At the end by siding with Ace he also talks about the entertainment for the audience who wants the DGP back to its roots as Riders beating bad guys rather than the sadist show Suel is turning it into - though by then he assigns the DGP as the bad guys to be beaten.

The reason he wants to eliminate Ace is, to protect the DGP's secrets. Yes... the secret that the DGP creates Jamatos or that they rob people's lives and happiness to grant wishes and keep the game going (by granting more winners' wishes). Claiming Ace's wish as frivolous is his tactics to manipulate Keiwa into eliminating Ace.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...5731/image.png

Is Girori another one that got people justifying him since Chirami was appointed as GM? And only because of his pretty words of wanting to contribute for world peace or being right about something. Like above, I know that people'd like to paint villains as in the right/doing nothing wrong due as people commonly take their words at face value, or if but nah, but I'm not buying the pretty words they way, would be a hot take to the fandom but I'm exposing their insincerity.

Guess in that department, Micchy has similar stuff, but more setup from the beginning than Gai was. Takatora also pressured him in his academics and Yggdrasill position/role like enlisting him in elite school and forbidding "distractions" for him, which also makes him want to escape Takatora's shadow by said control. His moments with Team Gaim is his escapism, which he also has to cover due to it being viewed as distraction and lowlifes he can't associate. He'd protect said joy he felt by being with team Gaim by any means, eventually escalating to sacrifice humanity to do so to "spare" them (though Mai is above anything including other friends, he'd go after his other friends that gets in his way too). What makes him finally relent was when his schemes fail to accomplish anything and instead backfire to them, causing both Kouta and Mai's (by entrusting her to Ryoma) death, after for a while he's trying to validate his insanity while his conscience (Takatora hallucination) was practically telling him he's fucked up.

Regarding this, you wouldn't view Masamune as being redeemed right for being a help to Kiriya? Why wouldn't you view Daichi as the same way as Masamune in the end of Geats? Both are only doing that for personal benefit which happens to be done by allying with the good guys (for Daichi, it's his curiousity to humans he already had since his debut). Another comparison for Daichi might be another four-glasses insane evil genius Utsumi in Build, who sided with the good guys to avenge Namba, and by result benefits them, even having Utsumi shield them, but it wouldn't be redeemed too eh, he prioritized protecting the Lost Bottle and shows open spite to Gentoku still. I also wonder how'd you view Evolt's actions of fighting Killbus, cuz it's also an alliance done for mutual benefit that many people also mistook as "redemption", as usual due to glorifying villains for just benefitting the heroes.

I can only speak for myself but the recently announced V Cinema having been described as the heroes 'discovering the secrets of the Jyamato' crossed my wires, again, my bad, it's been almost a year since some of these things so I guess it slipped my mind more than I realized with all I've had going on


Nah I get you, it's important to read between the lines and there's much more to villains than what they say, I still live in denial about a villain like this in one of my favourite franchises and refuse to believe anything but "He made it all up to sound righteous" lmao

Well, there may be a ?true origin? in V-cinema, which even the DGP employees did not know about (probably for reasons of ?realism?). Or is it a situation of limited canon, as when in the crossover the wishes came true without the approval of the producer and the Goddess of Creation. Or maybe Takahashi should re-read his script more often and he himself forgot that he had already explained the origin of Jamato.