Kamen Rider Gavv Episode 5- "The Memories Are Painful!" Discussion
 

Shoma is saved by a mysterious creature.

My hypothesis last week here and several hours ago here are proven to be quite correct within the first 2 minutes of this episode. Shouma was saved by a Granute with whale motif (not crocodile/alligator) named Dente Stomach, who is a high-ranking Stomach family member and was a trusted associate of Bouche aka Father Stomach/Goat Granute/Shouma's dad. Dente was actually Bouche's uncle, not Shouma's. He was the one who modified Shouma's Gavv into the red variant, likely by adding mechanical parts to it. All of his body parts are still kaijin, not only his head, quite different if compared to the Stomach siblings who have kaijin heads but human bodies. The weird thing is that he's been living like a destitute sage inside a cave, unlike the other Granutes of the week who've seemingly integrated with the human society. A brilliant scientist like him could make a fortune in the human world. It'd be interesting if there are indeed other Granutes who prosper and choose to live peacefully in the human world and refuse to be treated as Stomach corporation's lap dogs.

Shita and Jeebh say @ 03:24 that Shouma was weak as a kid, and the operation performed by Dente was done to strengthen his Gavv. Although they initially say that it bore no fruit, then they suspect that the success of the operation has actually just been recently shown, likely referring to the ability of Shouma's red Gavv to produce Gochizous by eating human foods. Shita says that Dente was the scientist who created the Hitopress process and other processes related to the creation of Yamikashi/Dark Snacks. Jeebh says that Dente was the mentor of Nyelve in science. This dialogue between them looks kinda funny because it's an obvious infodump. I mean, why would they recite pieces of information they've already known, unless it's done to dispense the information to the viewers. A flashback scene is a better way to inform the viewers. Show, don't tell. It seems like the writers are going full throttle on dispensing too many pieces of information in every episode. They should be careful not to waste ammo this early, or the story will lose steam reeeeeeally quickly.

Lango says @ 04:18 that he has a mission to change the Stomach corporation. By using the Dark Snack technology created by Dente, he's planning to conquer the Granute society. It seems like he has some kind of political aspiration. It'd be interesting if there's another faction within the Granute society that oppose the Stomach family. It'd be even more interesting if that other faction also manufactures their own version of Dark Snacks (and Rider system) to compete with Stomach's. People never rise to power easily without contenders. There must be other people who are also vying for the same position.

In the scene @ 04:30 it's shown that a Stomach's field agent is selling snacks to the Granutes in their world. Those snacks that are sold in the open are very likely viewed as mere ordinary snacks within the Granutes' legal system. Another Granute comes and is suspiciously purchasing a box of Dark Snacks, implying that Dark Snacks aren't legally sold. Lango says that Dark Snacks are only popular within the underworld, kinda like the Gaia Memories in KR W. He's concerned that due to its illegal and murky nature, Dark Snacks might be cracked down by the Granute government. He might be planning to get the majority of Granute population, especially the wealthy ones like he says @ 05:00 and stated in episode 2 @ 04:22, to get addicted to the Dark Snacks so that he'll gain enough political power to legalize it and further consolidate the Stomach's family power within the Granute society. This dialogue between Lango and Shita/Jeebh is also another obvious infodump. I mean, why would Lango retell and reelaborate his master plan to Shita/Jeebh who are supposed to already know it, unless he's doing it simply to inform the viewers.

Like I hypothesized last week here, in the scene @ 05:14 it's shown that Stomach's field agents are indeed the minions created by the Stomach siblings. Agents are to the Stomach siblings like Gochizous are to Shouma.

Dente says @ 07:51 that he was asked by Bouche to modify Shouma's weak Gavv because it couldn't create minions/agents unlike the Stomach's. His inital attempts failed, and he decided to settle in the human world to research humans and find what could strengthen Shouma's weak Gavv. As he says @ 09:17, he likely found out that human's snacks are what was able to strengthen Shouma's Gavv and awaken its powers. He didn't only research human's snacks, but also got hooked on it, which was what upgraded his kaijin form to a full one, not only the head. The reason why all Granutes of the week so far have a full kaijin body is because they've eaten human's foods. If Granutes can actually eat human's foods, then what do they eat in the Granute world? If they eat the animals and plants of the Granute world, then the Dark Snacks are likely just expensive, novelty, recreational foods for those who have enough money.

Shouma says @ 09:50 that Bouche aka Father Stomach kept him and his mom at the Stomach mansion. Dente says that Bouche, who was starting to grow fond of humans, did it to protect Shouma and his mom from being targeted as humans spices by Lango et al and their agents. Dente says that Bouche was intentionally making them suffer to make them unattractive as human spices. But, if Bouche actually cared about Shouma and his mom, then why didn't he simply let them go and transfer them back to the human world, instead of house arresting them in the Stomach mansion and keeping them like pets? He could've simply commanded his agents and Granutes in the human world to white list and never kidnap Shouma and his mom. Normal people in the position of Shouma and his mom would've definitely gone crazy and become very mentally disturbed, especially Shouma who had never ventured beyond the Stomach mansion. Very very very weird and irrational decision by Bouche, unless he's a very short-sighted person and or a 99% abusive psychopath. It feels like he did it simply because the writers needed him to do it to create the plot of this show. There goes my respect for Father Stomach.

Hanto defends Shouma/KR Gavv @ 20:04, which means that the opposite could happen in later episodes. He could have a serious conflict with Shouma later, which perhaps will have something to do with the kidnapping of his mom 18 years ago. Bouche/Father Stomach is revealed to be Goat Granute, so the Wolf Granute is likely another Granute. Bouche/Father Stomach/Goat Granute also looked like the Stomach siblings and Dente, where his mouth was completely sealed, unlike the Wolf Granute who had an exposed mouth. This means that the Wolf Granute is a different type of Granute, perhaps some kind of wild/feral/savage type which was completely different if compared to the civilized type of the Stomach family or even all the Granutes of the week so far. Was the elusive Wolf Granute a normal Granute that became a wild freak of nature due to the failure in one of Dente's experiments when researching the Hitopress system?

Shouma returns to Sachika's shop @ 20:46 with the intention of working there again (and finding a living space). I've been asking why Shouma hasn't found a job since it's shown that he clearly needs money to even simply buy foods. Now it's clear why Shouma has been unable to find jobs and has been living like a vagrant/pauper. If Shouma actually finds a job (which he's more than capable of doing, let alone with the help of the Gochizous), then he'd have money to rent a living place. If Shouma finds a job that actually makes him money and enables him to live by his own means, then he would not need to return to Sachika's place to ask for her help, and she'd be irrelevant to the whole story in the next episodes. She'd be just another side characters of the week like Hajime, Mr. Sujimoto, and the Nakamura elderly couple. At most, she'd be a minor recurring character who is connected to Shouma via Hanto who may still have a need for her shop's service. So yes, Shouma is being manipulated by a higher force (read: the writers). TLDR: If Shouma finds a stable job, even a low-paying one, then Sachika would've little relevance to the story.

This dumb plot is obvious. It goes like this:
- Shouma is unable to find jobs,
- Thus he has no money,
- Thus he's unable to buy foods and rent a living space,
- Thus he often fainting due to starvation and living like a vagrant,
- Thus he meets, is given foods, and is bonding with the side characters of the week.
This dumb plot has been repeated 4 times consecutively since episode 2. Yes, you read that right. 4 times! Last week I said that if this is repeated once again in episode 5 then it's clear the writers are lazy. Well, it is repeated in this episode in the scenes involving Dente, so the writers are indeed demonstrating that they are lazy.

Mr. Shioya is investigating a bar which Hanto says @ 05:29 is an illegal gambling den that's often visited by famous people. He's then licked by the Granute of the week, so it's pretty much proven that he's just an ordinary human, not a Granute.

Next week:

Sachika discovers 2 Gochizous. What would she think they are? Toys? Pets? Invasive species?

Kenzou has finally completed a transformation device of his creation, the Valen Buster. Perhaps he's initially planning to use it himself, but changes his mind at the last minute after seeing Hanto having a conflict with the Granute of the week who licked Mr. Shioya. I'm still interested to see the people who are supporting Kenzou behind the scene. Unless he's a very rich yet eccentric/one-track minded genius like Dr. Emmett Brown from Back to the Future trilogy, it's unlikely that he's able to secure funding for his science project in just 2 weeks. It'd also be interesting if Dente ends up supporting him.

If Mr. Shioya is indeed used as a bait in the conflict and subplot between Hanto and the Granute of the week in episode 6 and to make Hanto transform into KR Valen who will debut in the same episode, then this story is demonstrating that it's going way too fast.

Nyelv says @ 23:14 that stimulation is important. I have a hypothesis that he's likely planning to use KR Gavv and KR Valen as sparring partners (aka unknowing pawns) whom he'll gather valuable data from. Those data will then be used to upgrade the design of the Granutes' Gavvs, or even to develop a Granute-only transformation belt/device that can also use or even produce RG's similar to what Shouma's red Gavv does. It'd be interesting if he's indeed Kenzou's antithesis, and they're trying to one-up each other. The clash of their Rider systems is the clash of their intellects.

Funny since it's a Rider with sweets and snacks as a theme, but still, this show has me all Gordon Ramsay: "Finally, some good fucking food."

Gavv is excellent so far, the first five episodes which are build to make us familiar with its setting an characters are amazing. Now it's time to set the status-quo and enter the secondary Rider, I'm excited.

As for this episode specifically: I'm amazed that Granute society is a thing and that Stomahc Inc. is not at the top of it all? Like, I expected them to just go the easy way and be like "all the Granute are evil", because it's a kids show after all, why even bother. But no, the Granute have their own world, they have authorities opposing the bad guys, and Stomach Inc. is trying to take control by making the rich and powerful addicted to their Dark Treats. That's so cool!

And man do we get some back-story right here: We see the father of the Stomach family for the first time; we meet Dente, Shouma's grand-uncle who's actually responsible for creating the red Gavv and the Dark Treat production technology. So creating minions really does run in the family, again, that's so cool. And wow the scenes with Shouma and Dente hit really hard. Dente is all friendly and wholesome, but can't even grasp how horrible the situation was for Shouma and his mother.

I adore how they set up Shouma's main drive: He was afraid to make people around him happy so that they won't be targeted by the Granute, but realized that's no way forward, he needs to protect those who are happy. And find his own way to live.

The action scene was super fun also, as a moderate spicy chips addict I love the fire upgrade. Having a bad guy interrupt the interaction with the belt, and then using said bad guy to crank the handle by spinning oneself around was so creative and fun.

Yeah, can't state it enough: Gavv is an absolute winner of a show so far. Easily on track to become my favorite Reiwa entry, and a high contender for spot on the podium for best show overall. Please keep the quality this high, please!

PS. Another appearance of a King-Ohger vinyl toy. I love it! :lol

Even more on the Granute society and Shoma's family now.

So Shoma's dad is named Bouche, and there's someone even older in the family tree, the great uncle Dente. Indeed, the Agents are like the Gochizos of the actual Granute, and Shoma is only able to produce Gochizos because of Dente's modification. Wonder how Dente would integrate to humans in him studying humanity to modify Shoma's Gavv.

Thought Shoma may have a prejudice to Granutes to just be cold to Dente, but there's a good reason, as Bouche was shown to be an abusive dad who forces Shoma to do what he wants like training and beat up Michiru. Bouche kidnapping Michiru and not letting her escape also has a disturbing implication in Shoma's birth. Dente constantly depicts Bouche in positive light, like claiming he only does that to protect Shoma and Michiru as if they're happy they'd be targeted by the Stomachs, and there's a flashback of Bouche saying he wants to help Shoma by asking Dente. Training is also likely meant for self-defense to other Granutes.

The Stomachs aren't fully on the same page. Jiip and Siita are more interested in observing Shoma's performance, of which they knew him as weak, but Lango wants to save their company from the authorities, rising their status from an underworld as the ruler of the Granute world. This should mean the Stomachs are a threat not only for humans but for other Granutes as well, the Granute MOTWs are evil due to being their part-timers. I wonder if Jiip and Siita would ironically need Shoma's help if Lango becomes too dangerous for them, like Lachesis against Glion.

Shoma's lonely Kamen Rider days are over after he helps a child retrieve a toy, framed like his flashbacks with Michiru, using his strength once more, he realizes now that it's not his fault that people are turned into Hitopresses. His helping nature should inherently make people happy, and he'd continue doing that, while claiming to strive for his own as well. It's obviously the bad guy's fault for doing evil things. Ofc he can still suffer by failing to protect people if the adversary is too strong, though.

Hanto's field allows him to quickly learn the Granute's deal, finding a Gochizo, Agents, and the Hitopresses. So far, Hanto seems to be heroic too to be concerned about the people who got compressed, trying to prevent Agents from taking them, and trying to free them after Gavv beat the Agents, and of course defending Gavv from the people who are scared of him, albeit for now he doesn't know if Shoma is Gavv and a half-Granute. Ritsu should learn now as well, as she interacts more with Hanto.

For different flavors of the same food, it only enhances stuff rather than giving separate forms, like the spicy Hirihirichips giving fire elemental attacks to Zakuzakuchips. I wonder if this applies to non-spicy stuff too, like seaweed.

Sachika so far has the providing information role by checking up the social media. Otherwise, she's kinda a bit mean to Shoma when he decides to return to Hapipare, being snappy over his departure rather than being understanding (even without knowing why). Shoma chooses to return to Sachika rather than to the Nakamuras, likely because (for in-universe reason) Sachika takes a more active role in making others happy like what Shoma wants.

Well, there were good monsters in previous shows too, starting from Faiz with the main Orphnoch trio. There are others too like Shima Undead, Hiyori in Kabuto, the main Taros (particularly Kintaros) or Deneb in Den-O, the Arms Monsters in Kiva, Invisible Dopant in W, Chase without brainwash in Drive, Cubi in Ghost, Burgmon in Ex-Aid.

I don't know if you've known this, but Gavv already had 20+ episodes filmed before it even started to air. Guess it explains why it's a winner of a show, the preparation really pays off, and guess I made the right choice of still trying to watch a KR show during airing one more time. Being better than other Reiwa shows isn't a high bar though.

Of course!

But they were outlaws, rebels against their kind. It always seemed like their entire race was evil, or specifically made to be, and the good monsters were defects and traitors.

With the Granute it seems like they are much closer to humankind, as in the general population is law-biding and Stomach Inc. and their supporters are criminal elements.

I wonder how that plays out later on. Especially since humanity is now experiencing only the bad sides of Granute-kind which will strain their future relations. Maybe Gavv can negotiate, as a half-human half-Granute. Although he himself isn't too keen on the Granute either. Maybe he will take a trip to their world and learn more about his heritage?

Also, I think the good monster trope started with Mole Beastman and was soon after perfected by the best monster ever, Whale Mutant.

I do know that! Doesn't stop my paranoid self from fearing the quality will drop regardless or set in noticeably after the 20th episode :lol

My theory has not been entirely proven or disproven, and there seems to be some differences to what I was guessing, but I called it; the Dark Treats are part of Stomach Inc's ploy to take over/influence Granute society from the shadows. I had a feeling those things were illegal; human farms would've been a thing if they were.

Would be interesting if Gavv teams up with Granute law enforcement or something llike that in the future, but I digress.

And hot dang, Shouma's father is messed up. Dude controlled Shouma and his mother because he 'loves' them. I don't think I've seen this kind of family dynamic in Kamen Rider before, and this franchise is no stranger to dysfunctional relationships. Also, it's obviosuly not gonna be said outright due to this being a kid's show, but this episode pretty much confirms that Shouma was born from rape.

Eh not necessarily. There are multiple scenarios how that could've played out.

Either dad was wearing a human disguise, interacting with mom pretending to be human and only revealed his true self after Shouma was born, or they were actually in love for real, and the tragedy only happened once dad realized his other children were after the mom and Shouma so he took them both prisoner to protect them.

He's a major asshole in both scenarios, I'm not trying to defend him or anything, but straight up sexual violence is not something I see implied here.

So Shouma is a Kaizo Granute after all. Pretty realistic depiction of the health problems involved with interspecies breeding, with his human side resulting in a weak Gavv that needed to be remodified to function properly. Since the lonely suffering of Remodified Humans is considered an outdated Showa trope due to how human culture has become more accepting of people with physical distinctions, it's a smart move to play that trope with Granute culture instead.

Unfortunately, love and abusive psychopathy are not mutually exclusive. I believe Dente when he claims that Bouche loved his family, but it's just that the way he expressed that love was twisted, for all the reasons that Shouma called him out. Even a Mary Sue hero like Tendo would deny Hiyori's freedom to protect her from the 1999 Worms, until he thankfully saw the error of his ways. Love can make people do stupid things, so Bouche acting irrationally towards his loved ones is like the whole point.

Shouma said he wants to be like Sachika, who represents ideal happiness to him. Why should Shouma settle for any job when he can get one that appeals to his desire to help others and potentially gives him more money to spend on his Tasty Diary and a warm place to live with a girl who cares about him? It's a sign of his character development that he's willing to be more selfish.

Reminds me of that (Rider) Time when Sougo used Geiz's kick to henshin.

Way too early to make judgments like that!

Jeep and Theta are hypocrites here for expecting special treatment as Lango's family, even though they literally tried to murder their little bro last week. Lango seems like he only thinks of his younger siblings as company assets and would easily replace them if it benefits Stomach, but at least he's honest about it. Shouma's exile was only the start, so this is a useful warning to the twins that they should also be careful of provoking Lango if they repeatedly fail to meet his standard.

And now Shouma overcomes his own hypocrisy here after remembering that Bouche also caused sadness for the sake of protecting others. He learns that happiness is what makes life worth protecting, so even if it puts others in danger of the Granutes, he'll bring them happiness and when the Granutes appear, that's what Gavv is for.

A good journalist reveals the truth. Hanto wanted those civilians to know that the monster called Kamen Rider is not a bad guy and deserves their respect and gratitude. This may have been the last push Shouma needed to return to Hapipare, the validation that even a Granute like him doesn't have to stay an outcast to humanity and it's okay to pursue his own happiness. I hope that Henshinzero will be satisfied with this outcome.

The first scenario seems unlikely, as Bouche's Gavv must've been exposed while they were physically interacting with each other. I agree with the second scenario though, based on how Dente praises him. And yeah, Bouche is still an abusive father and husband to the extent that the story needs him to be, but he's not totally depraved in that way.

The presence of law enforcement in Granute society and Largo being in a race to get the wealthy addicted to Dark Treats before the cops get a wind of his operations is an excellent bit of world building because to me it means that Granutes aren't inherently evil. Largo just happens to be an amoral sociopath who puts profit before morals.

Bouche and his one-sided love. This Kamen Rider show isn't afraid to go dark, is it? Bouche and his uncle Dente may have the best intentions but they were evil for imprisoning Shouma and his mother in Bouche's mansion. Not to mention, the circumstances of Shouma's birth carry dark implications indeed.

EDIT: Okay, so Bouche was just straight up abusive. No wonder Largo is so messed up. If Bouche treats those he loves so harshly, how would he treat his non-favourites? Not well, I assume.

https://i.imgur.com/7TWqP5D.jpg

I haven't taken time out to mention him yet, but this week seems like a perfect spot to say -- Hanto seems like a real swell guy.

His actor brings a charming energy to the role, and Koumura's scripts have smartly fleshed the character out over the past month without making his role in any given episode so big that it detracts from the focus on Shouma. We've already established an obvious parallel in their backstories with them both losing their mothers to the Granute, but their situations and their personalities clearly aren't the exact same either, so I'm looking forward to how that'll develop over the course of the show.

Right now though, it's simply nice to see someone giving the Kamen Rider the credit he deserves, right when he probably needed it most. Thus far, Shouma has always been quick to retreat whenever he's made to feel his presence may in any way cause trouble for the people around him, and the way he lets those fears drive his actions left him starting this episode pretty much at rock bottom, beginning to believe that making someone happy is just another way he'll end up hurting them.

The big infodump about Shouma's father by way of his granduncle gives us a ton of important backstory, formally introducing two new characters in the process, and even firmly establishing Gavv's old-school roots as a Rider, but just as important as any of that, it also reinforces how Shouma has all these painful, probably pretty complicated feelings he's been carrying with him his entire life, and while he's always eager to help others, it's only really here I think we see him actively start pushing against that sorrow, and considering his own happiness as something worth fighting for in the same way.

He's already starting to grasp that after realizing how absurd it is to let the bad guys convince him bringing joy to others is somehow the real crime here, but I have to imagine those words from Hanto are what really cemented Shouma's newfound resolve. It's the now usual routine of Gavv saving people, getting called a monster, and then meekly leaving without refuting the claim, except this time, Hanto says what Shouma still won't -- what Shouma probably wants to say, deep down. So instead, Shouma simply says "thank you" before he leaves, which was a wonderfully downplayed moment. I really enjoyed that Shouma's big moment of bravery in this one, more than anything during the action, ends up being his decision to go back to Sachika. It's good that he won't let the villains deny him his happiness, but it's great that he's trying not to deny himself anymore.

Heck no it ain't. 5 episodes in a row I enjoy this much? That doesn't happen often. It's very promising start for me.

"In retrospect I always wondered why he never took off the tooth-belt in bed, but who am I to kink shame others?" :lol

I do wonder if they will try to redeem the dad later. As in, it will be revealed that he had good intensions, but the lesson will be that you don't have to forgive your abusers to find peace.

Dente will obviously be involved in engineering upgrades for Gavv in the future, so maybe Shouma has to look into his Granute-side eventually.

I'm so glad he's not some secondary rider who is blinded by vengeance. :rock:

It's only episode 5, we'll see about that.

This series is the most anime-esque of all the Rider shows,in my opinion, and I am oddly okay with this. Solid performance overall, I TRULY HOPE it stays this way

Why you gotta jinx it, man?

I won't be surprised if he has his Bujin Arms moment along the way, but initially he doesn't seem like a Kusaka 2.0 at his core. But like you said, it's only been 5 episodes and who knows what changes he may go through after episode 6.

A lot of people had high expectations about Revice as well.... Just saying, remember the moral of Gavv Episode 3: Overindulgence can hurt you later.

We've already heard his good intentions, that he imprisoned his family and made them miserable to reduce their spice value. He might be like Racles though, where he admits in a flashback that he knows what he's doing is evil and deserves to be punished but has no regrets about it due to necessity.

Hanto is the healthy version of Kusaka. They both have some kind of adoptive father, tragic backstory, motivation to find the one responsible and ability to use a monster's power despite being human.

Congrats on your 11000th post!

For the love of God, I am going to beg Komura to PLEASE not redeem what Bouche did to Shouma and his mom. We don't need more Revice-level bullshit of justifying parental abuse with "good intentions". It sends a terrible message to the primary audience of these shows that they need to just suck it up when their parents treat them like trash.

Also, it's so hilarious how Gotchard couldn't figure out how to incorporate Houtarou's dad into the plot, while this show has gotten it out of the way by episode 5.

Well, Tendou is a mary sue because of his hypercompetence and invincibility, rather than righteousness/moral reason. Tendou is of course, more morally questionable/anti-heroic than most of the main Riders, so he's more expected to do that kind of decision of denying Hiyori's freedom, rather than the imperfect, but morally pure other main Riders. Of course, him being a mary sue means no one can stand up to him when he makes that decision.

Obviously they'd expect that, as they aren't humans unlike Shoma (half), and what's known is that the Stomach family holds humans in disdain. You'd seem to hold Lango in higher regard here, but it seems that Siita and Jiip would be what's relatively more 'sympathetic' here, as it'd likely show they can be potential victims to Lango's higher position and oppressor.

Causing sadness for their own 'good' is no excuse, been saying this from previous series way starting from Revice, and it seems that not the actual series, but the fanbase often excuse this, for the cooler asshole characters, like insisting that they're only that way to drive people away and not make them sad (e.g. over their departure), like the discussion about Tsukasa before in some previous Gavv episode, or anything about claiming that the assholes are only being 'tsundere' and that it's others' fault to not understand them.

But Heisei Phase 2 is the real benchmark to compare or praise quality, as nearly all the shows there have a perfect track record. Beating Reiwa shows isn't a real feat.

Dunno if I just should differentiate between cases that hit too close to home or the ones with more suspension in disbelief, just that, previously KR can have the goody two shoes giving second chances to even more depraved characters than the type of Bouche that committed far worse crimes (or at least attempted to).

But redeeming would actually require him to be alive, and change his ways to a properly good one, not about sugarcoating his bad actions that are still there and not fixed (as he's dead) in a positive light. This episode already claims that Bouche has a good intention.

Why'd he get that moment?

What'd be the parental abuse for Revice? As the Igarashi parents are good parents. And for Gotchard, most KR don't touch upon the parents of the main character, Houtaro's dad being absent maybe just a similar thing to those that have the claim that their parents are dead, simply explaining why they aren't in the plot and together with their child.

^ I'm referring to the plotline with George's dad, where he implanted him with a demon and then abandoned him. But it was all forgiven because his dad kept his drawings and felt really, really bad about it.

Oh hey, I totally called it about the Agents being the Stomach family's equivalent to Gochizous!

Now where was that bottle of champagne... :lolol


*shrugs* Ultimately sell toys? :lolol

I explained in the Episode 1 thread that Tendo's heroism shines in morals people learn when they meet him. An antihero does good deeds for reasons other than heroism, but Tendo walks the path of heaven, so he actually does good deeds with good intentions. His action towards Hiyori showed a rare flaw in his heroism, that he can lose sight of the path of heaven when his sisters are in danger. How fitting that the only one who could take Hiyori away from Tendo was the Worm who copied him, inheriting his Mary Sue trait in a dark way.

I don't currently sympathize with any of the matrilineal Stomach siblings, as they're all abducting and murdering humans to make addictive drugs for their fellow Granutes who become doomed to be killed by Kamen Rider. Both races are being harmed by their evil confections, so Jeep and Theta are foolish to be like, "but we're family!" like they expect that to have any weight on Lango's decision making process, when those twins clearly don't give a damn about family either, other than each other.

Maybe he'd learn a painful revelation about the red-Gavved Granute Wolf.

Yeah, there's also Gif, Vail, Tasuke and Olteca's father. The Igarashi parents were the outliers!

Only final form debut would be required for that.

I mean, as I've said here, if they do something that seems off to you, it's not necessarily only done simply for toys or such.

I don't know if I've said this to you, but it's common for people to deem anti-heroic ones as only the ones that do good deeds outside of heroism, and for people to only condemn non-heroic reasons like popularity, but anti-heroes means heroes that has unheroic/dark traits (and aren't one-off thing but recurring), and it doesn't only consist of non-heroic reasons, it can consist of other things like them being pragmatic or ruthless (willing to resort to questionable deeds like torture or extortion), overly violent (pay evil unto evil like brutally killing bad guys), or being a hostile asshole (e.g. being self-righteous and/or arrogant to refuse to listen to others, being prejudiced to something to treat them lower than others, apathetic to people's predicament outside of saving their lives), etc. Like, despite usually only using non-heroic reasons, dunno if they realize that an example usually brought up as anti-heroic one is Punisher, who has an altruistic motivation of preventing people being harmed by criminals.

They never justify or absolve Giff, Vail, or Orteca's father. Tasuke's obviously not flat-out evil like those but dunno about their opinion regarding his final scenes.

You made the most fatal mistake: Conflating love with the illusion of love. Illusion, be it the illusion of love, illusion of competence, illusion of leadership, etc, is virtually the main thing that enables psychopaths (or rather, sociopaths aka psychopaths with social standing) to gain power and authority over the people they're toying with. Psychopaths are only able to give the illusion of love, not love.

Based on Dente's story, Bouche was not a psychopath, but a genuinely good man who had no other options. Bouche was not twisted, but was forced by situation. The truth is, Bouche still had other options, so his irrationality was not caused by love nor illusion of love, but by plain stupidity, and that's why his decision was soooooooooooo hilariously shallow and irrational. Like I elaborated in my first comment, he was the patron of the Stomach family, and as long as he was alive, no one would've dared to go against his words. If he was not stupid (or rather, was not intentionally made stupid by the writers), then he would've done the most rational thing any rational, logical, sane person with common sense would've done: He would've allowed Shouma and his mom to return to the human world and live their lives to the fullest, and to protect them he would've exerted his full authority and ordered all members of Stomach corporation from the highest to the lowest rank to never lay their hands on Shouma and his mom. He would've no need to imprison Shouma and his mom in the Stomach mansion and utterly destroy 20 years of their lives, especially Shouma's, who since his birth probably had never even took one step in the real world, be it in the Granute world or the human world.

If Bouche chose to be wise and rational, then Shouma and his mom would've been living in the human world under his protection, and they would've only recently been targeted by Lango et al who have had resented Bouche for protecting Shouma and his mom. If Bouche chose to be wise and rational, then Shouma would've discovered his powers since a long time ago. But, then again, the writers couldn't let Bouche to be rational (read: not stupid), because if they let him be rational, then his rational decision would've ruined their carefully planned convoluted plots, and the story would've gone haywire. If the writers let Bouche be rational, then the story would've started in a completely different way from the one shown in episode 1.

There are 2 things that make Bouche's stupid, nonsensical, irrational decision make a liiiiittttttttttle bit more sense.
- There was/is a member of the Stomach family, who could be Mother Stomach, who has/had more authority than Bouche did. This supreme member was/is able to veto any of Bouche's decisions, so his protection for Shouma and his mom could've been vetoed by this supreme member. But, although Bouche's decisions could've been vetoed by this supreme member, he still had the option of assigning several bodyguards he hired from outside Stomach corporation to protect Shouma and his mom, so Bouche still would have had no need to imprison and abuse Shouma and his mom in his mansion for 20 years.
- There's at least one other company that has manufactured their version of Dark Snacks to compete with the Stomach's. Bouche's power and authority were only effective inside Stomach corporation, so of course he couldn't protect Shouma and his mom if they were targeted by that other company. Even then, Bouche still had the option of assigning several bodyguards to protect Shouma and his mom, so Bouche still would have had no need to imprison and abuse Shouma and his mom in his mansion for 20 years. This hypothesis is weak because it's been shown that it was Dente who invented the Hito Press process, meaning Stomach corporation is the only manufacturer of Dark Snacks, unless Dente or another defector secretly sold his invention to other companies.

In Gotchard and Revice, this type of severe, virtually unresolvable logical anomalies were only apparent starting from episodes 25-30, or, in Geats' case, starting from episode 18, but in Gavv, due to its super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, this logical anomaly has appeared much much much earlier by episode 6 in many instances. The violation of the most basic level of logic, rationality, and common sense is one of the hallmarks of manipulative/heavy-handed writing and convoluted story. The main problems of this series is not only its super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, but also the severely manipulative/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing. If it's a natural/organic writing with an ultra-fast pacing, then it would only be a natural/organic story that loses its steam too early. Gavv doesn't only potentially loses its steam really really really fast, but has also revealed the many severe flaws in its writing philosophy much much much earlier compared to Gotchard and Revice. Gavv reveals itself to be a very bad story that also loses its steam very early. If the writers keep the super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, then I'm afraid Gavv will potentially run out of juice by episode 15-20. I'm not sure how the writers were going to fill the remaining 30-35 episodes. Were they going to fill those episodes with a stretched, much slower pacing and a completely different philosophy of writing? I doubt it. Based on what's been shown so far, they were likely going to fill them with more barrage of information, more super duper hyper mega ultra-fast pacing, more heavy-handed writing, and more convoluted plot. Perhaps that's why this story has had 5 starter villains from the get-go.

It's still episode 6, but I can quite already see the core philosophy of the writing in this series:
More is more is more.

More money? Are you serious?:confused: Shouma could make much more money by working independently as a one-man cleaning service by employing the Gochizous to clean buildings at night. The Gochizous could probably clean a whole 5-story building in 30 minutes, like shown in episode 3 @ 09:36 when the Gochizous tidied up a whole room in just 3 seconds. He could also do detective jobs by commanding the Gochizous to do patrolling, spying, etc like shown in episode 6. Basically, by employing the Gouchizous, he could work independently and open his own jack-of-all-trade shop that would provide a much much much better service compared to Sachika's. His inhuman strength and the Gochizous are what made him a much much much better and effective worker than normal humans. If he's much better and effective than 99,999% of all humans, then he'd have a great bargaining position to ask for a higher pay from his employers. He could do all the hard work from 100 workers 99% faster, and he could simply ask for 10 times the wage of a worker, and it'd still be a huge steal for his employers and a huge steal for him as well. It's a win-win solution. I don't really get your faulty reasoning when you concluded that he'd make more money by working for Sachika, when he could easily make much more money by going solo.

After Shouma gets his basic necessities (shelter, foods, clothes, transportation, etc) fulfilled, then he can also do altruistic/charity/volunteer works in his spare time, which should be a lot. He'd have more time to help people both as a civilian and as a Kamen Rider. As I've elaborated above, settling for a solo job would've been a much better career path for him, both financially and psychologically.

Nothing about Shouma's decision in this context is a sign of character development. Nothing. On the contrary, he's made to be dependent on Sachika. His dumb, irrational, nonsensical decision is a giant red flag that he, like so many characters in this story, are indeed manipulated by the writers simply for the sake of moving the pre-planned, cookie-cutter plot. Shouma's decision to work for Sachika and his dependence on her is a lazy, convenient excuse to make her more relevant to the story. If Shouma decided to go solo and be independent, then Sachika would be virtually irrelevant to him, and she would only be likely relevant to Hanto who may still need her shop's service. Once again, this is one of the many evidences that the writers of this story love manipulative/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing.

Oh, and Shouma doesn't live with Sachika. He only lives in her shop as a resident shopkeeper. Sachika is likely living in the same apartment complex as Ritsu.

My solution:
Just make Shouma's decision as rational, logical, and sensical as possible. The plot should go like this:
- Shouma decides to work independently and open his own jack-of-all-trade shop.
- Due to his efficiency via employing the Gochizous, Shouma's jack-of-all-trade shop is steadily becoming the talk of the town.
- Sachika feels that her shop is starting to lose customers, so she decides to visit the up-and-coming shop to see for herself what makes it better than hers.
- Sachika is surprised to see that Shouma is actually the owner of the up-and-coming shop, but nonetheless decides to hire him to clean her and Ritsu's apartment to see with her own her eyes what makes his service better than hers. Shouma, being supervised directly by Sachika, is getting awkward and can't do his job well because he can't just employ the Gochizous in front of her. This could be a good outline to develop Shouma's awkward attempts to hide the Gochizous from Sachika and other humans.
- Hanto still needs intels about the Granutes, so he also decides to hire Shouma's service who is also gaining a reputation of doing well-done detective jobs. Hanto, who Shouma thinks is just a journalist/writer, is given many accurate intels by Shouma, so he's also curious as to how Shouma is able to do it well. Hanto is starting to be suspicious of Shouma's accurate intels and decides to secretly spy on him, and finds that KR Gavv often appears at the same time and place as Shouma. Shouma, who has been giving accurate intels to Hanto, is also starting to suspect Hanto because KR Valen also often appears at the same time and place as the info he's been giving to Hanto. This could be a good outline to develop Shouma's and Hanto's secret identity subplot.
- Sachika is starting to notice that Hanto has been using Shouma's service, and although on the outside they're acting cordial toward each other, she's starting to sense an aura of distrust between them. She's trying to find out what's causing the distrust and is also getting entangled in Shouma's and Hanto's secret identity subplot. In this context, she could potentially play the heroine role as the mediator of the conflicts between the protagonist and the second Rider.

My solution is basically: Make all the characters behave as rational, logical, and sensical as possible, and then build the plot from there. Evaluate it, and if you don't like the initial outline, then work backward and revise it, and then re-evaluate it, and so on. Avoid adding unnecessary details, subplots, plot twists, etc at all cost because it will only make your story convoluted and incomprehensible. Making your characters behave as rational, logical, and sensical as possible according to the story's internal logic and laws and then building the plot from there is a much much much better way of writing a natural, organic story, compared to preparing a cookie-cutter, convoluted 7D plot with many unnecessary details, subplots, plot twists, etc and then forcing the characters to fit into that convoluted 7D plot at the expense of logic, rationality, and common sense, which will only create a manipulative/unnatural/forced/heavy-handed writing like what's been shown in this story so far.

Weren't good intentions what motivated Bouche's decision? Wasn't that what actually happened according to Dente's account in episode 5 @ 09:50? Dente said that Bouche/Father Stomach intentionally abused Shouma and his mom to protect Shouma and his mom from being targeted as humans spices by Lango et al and their agents. Dente said that Bouche was intentionally making them suffer and unhappy to make them unattractive as human spices. So, yes, Gavv had already reached Revice-level bullshit by episode 5.

The problem is not only how bullshit Bouche's decision was. The bigger problem was how utterly irrational and nonsensical his decision was. If Bouche actually cared about Shouma and his mom, then he should've let them go and transferred them back to the human world, instead of house arresting them in the Stomach mansion and abusing them for 20 years. He could've commanded Lango et all, their agents and all Stomach members in the human world to white list and never lay their hands on Shouma and his mom. I've elaborated on this on paragraphs 2-4 of the first section above.

From my understanding, Gotchard tried to make Houtarou's dad some kind of central figure in a uber-convoluted plot twist. Due to the serious mishaps happening between the scene, that plot twist was severely delayed and eventually didn't come to fruition. From several rumors that I've read, he'll finally appear in the Graduations V-Cinext film as the anti-hero/dark Rider.