Kamen Rider Zeztz Case #13- "Extinguish"- Discussion
 

Baku, having lost his confidence as an agent, is branded unfit by Zero.

Does that count as a Rider Punch? Oh no, all those Capsems we've gained along the way!!!

It's bad enough that this is probably the biggest failure Baku's dealt with yet since the Bomb Nightmare...but he didn't just fail to stop NOX, he failed to protect Seiya's dream, and he's fighting an opponent he genuinely doesn't think he can beat.

Honestly I did not expect to see Fujimi turn on Baku or Nasuka defending him, or a dissolution of their partnership. Fujimi is just too obsessed/close to the Odakka case. What will happen when he reunites with his old partner as NOX?

Really kicking a guy when he's down, huh Zero?

When Baku is at his most down, he needs a child who can still believe in dreams, even when things get tough, to steer him back.

So I guess Minami is taking the "I'll leave my brother to his new thing because I trust him and just want him to be okay" method. Was really expecting she'd directly confront him about it. Did Zero tell her not to tell him?

Ah, so they extrapolated "I'm going to give up my dream for my parents' sake" into "Let's blow up the entire world in a meteor shower!"

Nothing better than a newfound resolve to help with the gacha re-roll.

I had a feeling the Meteor was the Nightmare. Although it's Nightmare form felt like I walked into an Ultraman show.

Paradigm Gravity! It's not enough to completely overpower Nox Knight, but it can maneuver around him and hold him long enough for Zeztz to finish off the real threat with a Gravity Sphere Rider Kick. Also those gravity gauntlets are pretty handy!

Uh...I don't think Zeztz getting consumed by the black hole left by his own finisher was part of the plan...

NOX was Code 04!? What about 1-3, and 5-6!? And it doesn't seem like Zero cares about the personal health for the Agents so long as they complete their mission. Especially since BAKU WON'T WAKE UP!

A long nightmare? The truth that Zero would have to kill Minami if he told her? Baku going after NOX directly next!?

Something I understand after watching this episode of Kamen Rider Zeztz: This show is definitely more willing to mess with the at this point long-established Rider formula than I had previously assumed, which I'm happy about.

Things I don't understand after watching this episode of Kamen Rider Zeztz: Kamen Rider Zeztz.

It kinda feels like the thing that ultimately got extinguished here wasn't humanity, Baku's Capsems, or even his confidence, as much as it was any remaining shred of my ability to properly process anything that's happening in the story with certainty? I barely know what's happening, and know almost nothing about why, in the sense of what the people telling this tale are hoping to convey to an audience.

I'm seriously baffled to find myself in this position, because I pretty much *always* have stuff to say about Kamen Rider? Here though, I think if I actually try to talk about the episode, it'd just be isolated little things? Positive opinions like how impressive the choreography in the NOX Knight/ZEZTZ fight in the climax was, and snide remarks like asking if Zero decided to talk to NOX for any specific reason beyond wanting to let the audience know his official CODE Number at that particular point. Real basic observations, when I strive (as best I can) to come in with more unusual angles, in the hopes of making things more interesting.

"But... there was still someone better."

In that sense, I kind of relate to Baku here, because I feel like I just realized how many steps ahead in the game I'm not, and now I have to struggle to pick up the pieces and, and... and wherever the narrative is going from here, I guess. One common theme I've begun to identify that unifies Zeztz's episodic stories is the danger of making assumptions, and it turns out that might've been true for my own meta viewing experience, too. I've been treating it like just another Kamen Rider show this whole time, and I'm starting to think the preconceptions I've been coming in with are what's been keeping me from actually seeing it?

Like, I assumed this would be the usual part two of two, you know? Baku builds his confidence back up, that pep talk with Seiya comes full circle, he wins his first major victory against the cool rival hero/villain dude, does some speechifying about dreams that clarifies the themes. But it turns out this is still the middle of a larger story, and it certainly looks like it's actively subverting most of those usual tropes to make a point about how in over his head Baku actually is? The resolution with Seiya is especially striking in that regard, because that last scene is played less as a child overcoming bullies through belief in himself, and more like he's become single-mindedly focused on a goal at the expense of actually connecting with the world around him... which isn't too far off from the mindset that led Baku to getting sucked into a black hole for the cliffhanger?

One assumption it IS probably safe to make is that eventually, ZEZTZ still has to be a hero doing good things that viewers will root for and be excited by, but the show has successfully thrown me off the trail in a way that doesn't happen often. Maybe ZEZTZ gets his first big powerup and things immediately settle back into a routine that's different but still broadly the same. But then, maybe even if they do, the show will just find new interesting and unusual angles anyway.

I think a lot of my posts about Zeztz so far have maybe given the wrong impression because I've sort of neglected to outright say that not being able to understand so much of it has also been part of the fun for me this whole time? When I'm leveling criticisms at it, it's coming much more from a place of curiosity than anything else. After this episode, my ability to understand the show may be at an all-time low, but that also means my curiosity is at an all-time high. Which, I guess, like Baku only ~kinda~ saving the day here, is about the most out-of-the-ordinary opinion I can offer at the moment.

Yeah....Zero is kind of making me mad.

And I really wish Baku would confront him about Nox and the capsems. I understand Nox's words messed with Baku, and the mission comes first, but I wouldn't completely dismiss them.

Also, I at first took Nasuka reminding everyone that Baku is a civilian as an insult, but in reality is just the gravity of the situation. Baku never really trained and was not presented with the full story. That's a lot to put on a the shoulders of someone really good at lucid dreaming. so Fujimi getting into Baku's face own more than one occasion upsets me because Fujimi has yet to deal with his own guilt about Odaka.

Edit: Zero is either way too confident or very mission driven, which makes sense for a secret organization. Though Nox"s method of exposing CODE endangers people, I'm wondering what happened that caused Nox to go this far. Baku was focusing to much on the coolness of being an agent versus the organizations themselves when watch Janes Bond.

Well, it seems the biggest blow to Baku wasn't the revelation of Capsems' contents, but his defeat by NOX. Realizing he could lose even in his dreams, Baku loses confidence, and his fight with Fujimi only makes matters worse. Zero's curt remark that anything is possible in dreams doesn't help.
Luckily, no one can dream like children, and a new encounter with Seiya helps him get back on track. It's funny how this makes the boy the most important Dreamer on the show at this point. And his story, realistic, shown in passing and without dramatization, is touching. Sometimes less is more.
I was pleased with the gravity effects. CGI has improved significantly since Ghost Newton's time. And Nightmare Meteor was also good. Its somewhat cartoonish appearance actually works to its advantage, as it's a child's fear.
The ending is truly intriguing and answers many questions. It turns out Zero has changed agents at least six times and isn't particularly upset about ending up in the dark hall of Baku. And NOX, former No. 4, is offended by such neglect. And how can anyone now tell who's right, or if there's any right at all?
Fujimi, though charismatic, is almost always wrong. I'm even starting to think that's why he was assigned to black cases. Luckily, Nasuka is with him to remind him how police officers should work. It would be a shame if their collaboration with Baku really were to end.
Minami also seems to have the makings of a spy, given how calm she is after meeting the robot from the closet and realizing that her brother is an agent protecting dreams. It's all the more interesting to see what she'll do now that Baku has already suffered during its mission (and, by the way, not for the first time).
Unfortunately, the preview only says that NOX will decide to destroy the Dream World, expecting a full-blown beating from Zezz's power-up. We'll see what happens next.

He should have expanded his genre knowledge with something like Jonas Bourne and Mission Unfeasible.
Also: I'm surprised that many took Zero's words, "I thought you were like this in your dreams," as his disappointment in Baku. I took them as a reminder, along the lines of, "It's a dream, you don't need to train."

Bit of a mixed bag, this episode. Baku finally hitting a wall and losing his confidence didn't really hit the right emotional notes for me, which made me realize just how uninvested I am in Baku as a character so far. Still, it was interesting how he seems to have actually had a long-term falling out with Fujimi and Nasuka over it. Fujimi in particular has been going in a dark direction lately, so I'm really curious to see what they have planned for him as he learns more about Odaka. It was also nice just seeing Baku have some more time with our character of the fortnight. NOX continues to say foreboding things, Zero is revealing a more murderous side to him, and Baku gets sucked into a black hole formed by his own finisher. I think all of these things should probably have me excited, but I'm kind of back to being meh on what is going on in the show. Gravity had some very cool powers though, I liked how it was used in the fight to toy with NOX. Next week, we get to learn more about Baku's traumatic lightning strike backstory.

I really can't tell how much of my reaction to this show is just due to it not being to my tastes (not very character driven, very basic motif and suits, etc.) and how much of it is due to my DISASTROUS burnout on Yuuya Takahashi's style of storytelling after Geats. Regardless, it really struggles to maintain my bare minimum level of interest, even if I don't really hate it. To be blunt, I wouldn't be watching this show live if it wasn't getting a US simulcast. Since I am very much in the target audience for this international push though, I do feel like it's important that I express how I feel about it since Toei is probably keeping an eye on fan reactions in the English speaking world.

Except that that's literally what it is. Thanks to Baku, Seiya has a renewed faith in his dreams, and thus isn't letting what other snotty kids say get to him anymore.


Anywho, I've really dug these past two episodes. The second part especially hit all of the rights notes with me; especially in terms of presentation and atmosphere. The entire thing felt like there was an encroaching feeling of doubt and guilt over the entire story, only to then shine a light of hope despite it all.

That, combined with the build up we've gotten with both the story and the characters over these past 13 episodes has really gotten me excited to see what direction everything is gonna go in. I seriously doubt I'd be nearly as invested if this show were paced like, say, Build, and these past two episodes were episodes 4 and 5, for example.

Given how high tensions are right now, especially between Baku and the cops, I am very interested in seeing how Seven is going to handle the NOX situation come next episode!

I'm kind of expecting it not, though? I feel like they're setting up the usual "Rider gets an Upgrade/finally defeats their Rival" story but it mostly feels like Zero is making Baku go after NOX because he needs to get rid of an inconvenience like an ex-agent.

Well what is Zeztz driven by, then? And I mean, I'm actually not sure what the answer would be. Are we really sure this show isn't trying to let the characters dictate the story more than the other way around? Something I thought was very strange as I was watching this episode was how quickly it almost totally pivoted away from big the Plot revelations NOX keeps hinting at. I wondered why Baku had no further questions, no scene where he asks Zero about even one little thing... and then I thought, you know, maybe that actually shows how seriously Takahashi was considering Baku's emotions and personality above just feeding more facts about Capsems and Nightmares to viewers? Because there's a pretty solid argument to be made that Baku would actively dodge the subject as much as possible, for a few different reasons, and the episode still puts his whole emotional struggle at the center, mostly waiting until the end to do further shocking twists.

Probably! I *did* explicitly say I don't understand this show!

I certainly don't think for a second it's meant to be portrayed as an outright bad thing that Seiya believes more in his dream thanks to Baku, and those other kids are clearly jerks, but... I don't know, I still got the feeling there was another layer to it under that surface. It's a couple things. One, the music cue in that moment came off ambiguously to me, this big emotional swell that's also slightly ominous. Two, the specific dialogue in Japanese has Seiya's blunt affirmative response coming after those kids joke about how he should "escape/run away" to space, which I also thought was a curiously specific way to write that exchange, in the larger context of the episode?

Don't get me wrong, if this was the simple narrative it seems like it's going to be towards the start, it'd still be a good one, but so much from the climax onwards is already about turning things on their head, I kind of figured the guest character plot might not necessarily be an exception? It works as a contrast that gives the viewer some sense of relief between the shock of ZEZTZ disappearing and Baku not waking up, showing that his efforts weren't in vain. But it'd also maybe work as a parallel to Baku, who decides here to continue pursuing his dreams without really facing the facts of his situation, and ultimately has to suffer consequences for it, as if the story is acknowledging that simply having a dream by itself isn't always enough.

But yeah, again, I don't know! Could be reading into just that scene the wrong way, the whole episode the wrong way, could even have some or all of it more right than I can be sure of! It's all just what I felt personally, and especially with the way I'm currently feeling about this show in general, I don't particularly intend to push back too hard if someone is reading things a different way right now.

I definitely think it's character driven - in the sense that it's driven by Baku - and the reason he didn't ask Zero about anything NOX said was he was too caught up in being unable to stop him or the damage done to Seiya's dreams. I genuinely don't think he took NOX's words seriously.

I do wonder if the tertiary is going to end up being one of the other Agents who have gone rogue or maybe Code Number 08 who is meant to replace Baku.

- "Thankfully nobody was hurt." I guess I didn't expect that Kamen Rider would delve into the consequences of a dream meteor destroying an entire building like that, but it does make me giggle to hear them explicitly reassuring the kids at home like this. Reminds me of Power Rangers and its Abandoned Warehouse District.

- As expected, there seems to be some tension between Baku and Fujimi over Odaka/Nox. And not resolved by the end of the episode either; I have to wonder if Fujimi will refuse to accept Odaka's ties to the case until he sees his snazzy new (anti-)villain form for himself. Or otherwise sees irrefutable evidence of Odaka's heel turn.

- ...TBH I thought that was a picture of an actual James Bond actor, in the poster on Baku's wall. I had to go back and pause to get a second look and confirm it wasn't.

- At first I thought that the whole revelation of CODE/Capsems being bad was just getting brushed under the rug, but after seeing the consequences of Baku finishing off the giant meteor man monster, that doesn't seem to be the case. At least not entirely.

I wasn't just kidding when I thought that Zero would be immune to twist villainy based on being so closely tied to Zeztz, even serving as his motorcycle. But he's just looking more and more sus, between his lack of concern at Baku's seeming death ("Mission complete. Humanity's extinction was prevented.") and his death threats towards Minami if she snitches on him. And now it seems like, at the very least, the conflict between Zero/CODE and Nox is much more grey than it would've seemed at first.

Right now I'm predicting that CODE will ultimately serve as the main villainous force with Zeztz and Nox teaming up against it, albeit with Zero himself potentially turning to/staying on the side of good. Or if he is evil, then Zeztz and friends will manage to break Zero's connection to the CODE Zeroider.

I'm reminded of Blue Fire, where, while the hero is watching Rocky, they show a re-shot scene with Japanese actors. Apparently, they were being overly cautious because of copyright issues.

My own take on what I think Zeztz's story is driven by is its sense of mystery and drama I suppose. Both in the episodic plots and overarching narrative the show is often intentionally trying to obscure things in order to create a sense of confusion and intrigue. In the process, I do feel like the cast are often just reduced to pieces Yuuya Takahashi is manuering around so that things can be more and more dramatic and to bring up further questions. Why do characters not ask questions sooner? Mystery. Why did Zero insist on the secret identity thing? Drama. The characters are just there to fuel the mystery in my eyes, they aren't fleshed out much as people beyond some very basic stuff about their motivations so far. This isn't a terrible approach, but man, you better be giving me some DAMN good mystery and drama if you are doing this. I do think my sense of exasperation at having to deal with the same writer every third show for so long is showing, but for as much as I think Takahashi can do some really good character drama I also think he has a tendency to get overly invested in his own twists at the expense of the progression feeling natural.

Mulled this over for a while before posting, I hope it makes some amount of sense. If Zeztz is accomplishing one thing consistently, it is getting confused and disparate reactions out of viewers.

That was actually very succinct and well-reasoned, I think!

I'd probably agree with the broader point of mystery and intrigue being the focus. Even though I opened up the argument in the first place, we just had the very decidedly character-focused drama of Gavv last year, where the plot was generally kept very straightforward and clear specifically to allow space to portray the cast as intimately as possible, so just by looking at that show, you can tell this one is going for something very different.

Though I'm not sure how I'd rate Zeztz as a mystery story. This goes back to what I've said about stuff like the need to "flag" bits as important, but I often get the feeling it keeps its mysteries intact not by obscuring them, but by outright refusing to give the viewer any information at all, which I find makes it less fun to engage with? With the former, the viewer is challenged to pick through various clues and facts and foreshadowing to identify through deductive reasoning what bits are misdirection and what truth the other bits are pointing to. With the latter, the speculation can very quickly become aimless because there's not much to base it around beyond "wouldn't it be neat if ____".

But then, the latter being so much less concrete also makes it a better fit if you're actively trying to create some sort of disorienting dream story, so it's another thing with Zeztz where I have this instinctive objection to it, and yet I can also see this side to it where it needs to be how it is to properly be Zeztz.

And as far as properly flagging moments as important goes, I do want to push back on the idea of it being arbitrary that characters aren't asking more questions, at least in the specific case of Baku. This episode has that bit at the start where right after he brushes off the revelation about Capsems to focus on his mission, NOX accuses him of sleepwalking through life. So while I suggested this baselessly last week:

...all of sudden, there's a firm case for that reading, and it makes me no longer question that part of the plot as much. Like I said, there are several reasons here I don't think Baku bothers following up on anything NOX said, but personally, I feel the biggest one -- and the one that's been true the whole time -- is that he just can't help but surrender to the fantasy? Whether it turns out he's literally asleep the whole time or some grand twist like that, I think at the very least he sorta subconsciously knows he might not like the answers he gets.

Yeah I think that the fact it is so hard to tell what is part of the "disorienting dream story" and what is just a genuine storytelling issue is part of what makes Zeztz so hard to get invested in. Like, I mentioned in a prior thread about the possibility of what we are told is the "real world" is actually also the dream world, which is why weird stuff sometimes happens there. But I'm not sure it really excuses the fact they have been telling a story where things that don't always make much sense happen and we as viewers are expected to go with it for so long? It makes me think about when someone is explaining their dream haphazardly after waking up, not realizing that it isn't all that interesting if they werent the one dreaming! If they don't go for a twist like that, we are instead left with a bunch of scenes that end without any followup! I'll conceded the point about Baku, I think it's fair to say he just doesn't want to learn any inconvenient truths, but there are so many parts to the show that just feel trapped between telling a coherent tale and secretive dream stuff and we end up with something that feels weak at both because it's so hard to tell what it is ever trying to do in a given moment.

I think the show is ultimately driven by Baku and how he reacts to everything and works through the plot, even if he isn't always consciously looking deeper into the plot until it gets thrown into his face.

And I can see that as well, but something about it feels....demeaning?

Like, Baku is just a normal dude with weird things happening to him anytime he tries to help people, which I can assume is entirely just odd luck (not counting the yellow hummer incident) or someone is actively messing with him. And he's a great agent in the dream realm, but I feel that Zero chose him as their agent specifically of his lucid dreaming abilities and his willingness to help others, all great attributes.

And I also believe Zero chose him because he wouldn't ask questions and just go along with the adventures. Nox knew who Zero was and what the organization is about, and he was a trained policeman/ detective. Nox/ Odaka would of course question everything and figure stuff out. It's probably why Zero is hiding from Nasuka and Fujima, as well as threaten Minami if she says anything.

Then again, I'm probably attaching way too much emotional feelings to this. lol

I need to go on a dream mission of my own soon (translation: I'm sleepy) so I don't know how to articulate this super well, but to me Zeztz feels less like a "mystery" story and more like a "discovery" story

Odaka/NOX/Ex Code Number 4 is still my favourite character in the show.

Baku is careless and swept up in the fantasy. The cops are just standard cardboard cutouts. Nem is barely a character.

At least MInami has some potential to develop into a good character.

I appreciate how Seven clarifies that Meteor Nightmare is twisting Seiya's subconscious desire. Seems like some people took the whole "this terrible thing is totally what the dreamer wants" too literally.

Agreed. It's sweet how Baku and Seiya were able to inspire each other. While the national secret arc did a good job of honestly framing the dreamer Atsumi as a plot device rather than pretending he's worth our emotional investment, I think the meteor strike arc did a good job of setting up Seiya for that investment and actually following through.

Fujimi needs to work on his critical thinking skills if we wants to become a great detective. Sure, intuition is also important for the job and it's okay for him to want to believe in Odaka, but when the field agent is reporting his involvement in some way and there's no evidence to refute it, then that's time to accept there's probably more to his buddy than he once thought. We can't just believe what's convenient.

No, I think you're pretty much spot on here. On his pride as the invincible agent, Baku is someone who strives to truly live in the moment and expose the truth through his own deductions, a quality that the cunning Zero has been encouraging, to likewise discourage difficult questions. Odaka had a reason to become an agent other than wanting that thrill, so he couldn't be manipulated so easily.

Well, my favorite is Baku. Him getting swept up in the agent fantasy is exactly what makes him interesting to me.

Something I think makes that heated exchange between Baku and Fujimi a lot more three-dimensional and interesting is that the opposite of this is also true? Fujimi might not know NOX, but Baku is the one who doesn't know Odaka, as anything other than a frequent obstacle in his missions, and it definitely seems like his need here to continue viewing NOX as a sort of absolute evil is another big factor keeping Baku from thinking more deeply about what's actually going on around him.

I agree. Baku is an extremely charming protagonist. His absent-mindedness and desire to escape reality are portrayed as flaws, but that's precisely what brings the character to life. If last year viewers forgave Shouma for his reticence and avoidance of difficult conversations, then Baku deserves similar leniency. Yes, the roots of his shortcomings aren't as clearly illustrated as in Gavv, but they're still quite justified and understandable.
I think the main reason for such harsh criticism of Baku is the rift between the viewer and the protagonist. Many people don't like happy-go-lucky characters, but these characters, upon noticing something suspicious, begin to unravel the mystery that interests the audience. It's slow at times, but that's also a plus, because it makes the viewer feel smarter. But Baku simply ignores all the red flags, and that's annoying because the viewer would have behaved differently. To accept such behavior you need a top-down perspective, but that's not everyone's cup of tea.
Here I'll take this opportunity to compare Baku to my favorite Kamen Rider. Touma also accepted his assigned role as a hero, but the villain's words were enough to make him doubt the much less mysterious and more friendly organization. But the difference is that Touma is a writer and thinks accordingly, so he's subconsciously prepared for dastardly twists and plot complications. On the other hand, Baku knows how to be a hero in dreams and a loser in real life, so he wants to remain an agent. Plus, he hasn't yet had the time or opportunity to properly study CODE and Zero. Ironically, NOX, while calling for this, becomes the main obstacle, distracting Zeztz with Nightmares.
When I talk about Zero, I find myself thinking that his appearance prevents me from judging his actions clearly. My thoughts go something like this:
"Zero prioritizes the mission and is willing to sacrifice a lot for it. As expected for a robot. Oh, no, he's not..." So I think it will be easier for me to form a final opinion about him after getting to know his human form.

Baku surely could've phrased it in a more clinical way than, "This is all Odaka's fault!" It would've still provoked Fujimi, but not as severely. Of course, Baku losing his perspective as an agent made him unable to consider the deeper meaning of Nox's actions. And Nox himself could also have helped his case, if his exposition wasn't so evil-sounding and ambiguous. If he has a point, he should really just make it.

More like happy-go-unlucky in Baku's case, at least as it appears on the surface. The viewer should understand though that if they'd ask too many questions outside of mission parameters, then Zero, as well as intelligence leaders in general even, would see them as a liability and not put them in the field. In that sense, Baku is a professional, as he prioritizes the integrity of the mission and the welfare of the dreamers above personal matters.

Yes, he may not have received proper MI6 training like 007, but being the secret agent otaku that he is, he's probably been taught well enough through all that consumption of spy fiction. And he's getting actual hands-on experience now.