[Sh Ranger]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

No offense but this is an even more blatant double standard between minor and major characters. If it's minor character doing fucked up things like Olteca's dad; then Burn Him Down? But if it's a major character doing fucked up things like Olteca here, far excessing being an asshole his father did; then it's not ok to fully condemn him? While it's true that Kamen Rider can't kill him if he's only human, it's due to them being living being (and human being weak thus it's not necessary) and not because there's good in him as a human? If it's acknowledged that paying evil unto evil is wrong, while the "paying evil" part is wrong but the "unto evil" part would still be there? No need to elevate someone (even a bit, if it's regarding Olteca, of treating as redeemable... while he goes escalating his crime further by stamping a child) to justify not killing them (it also happened in Tennoji for Blade, after he's reverted back to normal human, he had no redeeming qualities with others not being pleased of him being finished by Kanai, due to human but not due to there's good things about him, not about forgiving).

I never said that Olteca's father should be burned down or anything like that though, just that he's an a**hole. I don't think he deserves to die either. If anybody does wish death on him, then yeah, I agree that would be a double standard. Same goes for Gai's father scolding his son for any imperfect results. They're terrible parents, but I think they should still be allowed to live, at least. For not killing humans, yeah, the goodness of humanity isn't applicable in this scenario, but it's just the innate value of Olteca's human life in general that Kamen Riders typically fight to protect. I admit, at this point in the show, the "unto evil" part of the equation is still in effect, as Olteca has yet to show any sign of changing. So my talk of his potential redemption is a hypothetical and separate topic.

In Tennouji's case (I like how I can talk about that now), it's not really fair for the Riders to project moral standards from their own human culture on to an Undead with no inclination to care about human life. I guess it could also be argued that Tennouji stopped being a human when he merged with an Undead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreadBringer

Talking as if Adel is worse than Olteca or something.... Maybe he gets forgiven because though he did some horrible acts, he didn't reach Olteca's or other irredeemable villains levels' yet? Those irredeemable villains being people like Daguva, Ouja, Kitazaki, Minami, Mishima, Maki, Ryoma, Banno, Masamune, Evolt, Namba, Swartz... People actually like if a redemption story is handled well, such as Alain's, the complaint about Gai is about how forced, late, and rushed his 'redemption' was, not about a redemption going on. Actually I quite wonder if the 'redemption' is related to executive meddling or such, and they wanted to make Gai as despicable as they want, with ever escalating crimes in scale and spitefulness, and likely intending to make him as an irredeemable villain. While KR should strive to be heroic and teach good morals (a̶n̶d̶ ̶I̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶v̶i̶l̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶a̶g̶r̶e̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶e̶s̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶R̶e̶v̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶e̶p̶.̶ ̶2̶3̶ ̶d̶u̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶x̶i̶c̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶r̶r̶i̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶), if they want to make Gai redeemable it can be done better not just on the redemption part but on the whole show run.

I mean, Adel did commit patricide/regicide, attempted fratricide, frame his brother for patricide/regicide, murder Ryu and brainwash a lot of people in to submission, including his sister. If his acts don't put him on the same level as Olteca then he can't be that far behind. Like where do we draw the line? Is it quantifiable when a villain becomes irredeemable or is it a matter of personal perspective?

Sakuragi Nachi did say he wanted Gai to become hated on the same level as Kusaka and considered such hate to be praise. Even after his redemption, it's not like he's suddenly a totally different character as his big ego mostly stays the same, but now he's good and willing to admit the error of his ways. The characters still take a while to warm up to him after his apology, so they really make him work for that forgiveness the same way the viewers do. There were some hints to his tragic backstory, like him often calling Isamu a stray dog, which is symbolic of his affection for Thouzer and how Gai himself had strayed from his dream. Unfortunately, it was probably rushed due to you-know-what screwing up the production that year.