[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

And they start to develop. Watching their evolution is truly breathtaking. You involuntarily ask yourself: is Archimedel right or not? Are they capable of real intelligence, or will they continue to play roles, just more complex ones. And, best of all, we never know the answer. Is the Daichi at the end of the show a reformed Nadge with Jamato's abilities, or is Jamato based on Nadge overcoming the original program thanks to a mixture of other people's memories? I think each viewer will decide for himself. Well, or Takahashi will tell in an interview.

Ironically, I'd think that their development isn't much highlighted, other than the stakes in their threats - going from fodders (other than final boss), to the roadblocking Jamato Riders, to the army of finalist-level fighters. They only display JamaToru, and Dunkleosteus being the one who interacts like humans, but it's only them individually, not the Jamatos as a whole who are still just acting like them at the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

And it does not work for Irumi's character in any way, because fear for her daughter does not explain her snobbery. It's just an unnecessary appendix, the existence of which is only due to the fact that when it was filmed, the redemption of the parents was not considered as an ending.

Because like Riders' desires, people aren't only limited to one aspect. Fear for daughter is only one aspect she has, people can be multiple things like her snobbery towards lower classes. She also forbid Neon for associating herself with her fans and when little, making friends - that'd be also her snobbery at play in raising Neon, making her further lonely. What she's concerned his her company's growth, she also wants to use her daughter as a tool in arranged marriage for that connections, she pulls the toxic "for your own good/happiness" in an attempt to convince her so.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

For example, Kossey escaped from prison, ended up in the hospital and, having recovered, returned home. I understand, Apocalypse, but he should have been returned to jail already from the hospital.

It was never shown if Kousei returns home (being in home doesn't mean freed). Maybe his disappearence from the last episode can be him returning to the jail after his actions are done.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Also, due to the fact that the show shows the paths of different characters, mixed up with each other, they have to adapt to the plot, which leads to complication and absurdities. For example, here is the most obvious story path: Neon finds out about her father's arrest - goes home to her mother - goes to prison with her father - disappointed, goes to Ace and learns about Sara's death - calls Keiwa and arranges a meeting.
Here's what happened on the show. Neon meets with his mother, then with Ace, from whom he learns about Sara's death. Then he goes to prison with his father. And in the next episode, she accidentally remembers Sara and decides to meet with Keiwa.

What Neon hear is also Daichi's invasion through the screen, and she also acts on that. She notices the incurable one as the similar one to Sara when Ace fights them, and afterwards, she beats herself up for being powerless to fail to save Sara and those people (this is... common in battle royale female leads) as a non-Rider, and by that she visits her father to try getting her Rider powers back again to fight (it's her purpose)... Sara is always on her mind regarding her visit to Kousei too, it leads to her seeking her Rider powers back so others won't end up like her.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

But back to time travel. Why can't Sueru go back in time and stop all of Ace's previous incarnations from participating in the DGP? Their names are on file. Without the experience of 2000 years, Geats will simply disappear. The show should at least somehow explain why this is impossible.

This kinda sounds like Ryuki of Shiro with Shinji, of which Shinji is the constant thorn to his plans. But Shiro will never succeed in preventing Shinji fucking up with his plans. But well, even if Suel comes from the future, he doesn't have precognitions to know how Ace will end up be. Him going 2000 years ago, would mean that Ace will still be hellbent about reuniting with Mitsume. And no he wouldn't disappear, he'd just reincarnate as long as he hasn't met his mom. His Power of Creation is already something inside him since he was born, it won't be solved by time travelling even if Ace is unaware, but unconsciously making use of it.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

And extremism is just an example. In all villainy there is deceit. Murder? With rare exceptions, all murderers are deceivers. Abuse? They deceive both the victim and the environment.
Deception is the parent of all evil, deception is bad, deceivers are bad people. All? No, but most. It's like children who torture animals. Someone will outgrow this and become a beautiful person with shameful memories. But most will do terrible things later.

Seems that some crimes are considered as honest, instead of deceive, depending on how it's done. Someone who'd openly declare their disdain towards someone and murder them, like Michinaga, would be considered honest. It's when someone puts a facade to lure someone into their doom, like Daichi does in his cult, that would be considered deceiving. And even it's used as a praise regarding how how someone is better to be open about it, that they "at least admit it", and one can have only the sneaky crimes being considered one.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Having digressed a little more, I often see the phrase in the comments: “Egoism does not always mean evil, and altruism does not always mean good.” And I agree that you should always keep your eyes open and be ready to accept the new. But to be really useful, this phrase needs a little addition: "Not always, but most often." Contrary to false impressions, egoists and altruists are equally divided among successful people, just the former is more noticeable. But among criminals, crazy and dependent egoists are actually in the majority. And this is worth remembering.

Altruism not always meaning good is present in those that has good intentions but went to great extremes to accomplish it, like Michinaga. There are still many who think those who have good intentions did nothing wrong. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Plus, Ace is terribly passive and dependent on those around him along the way. In 2000 years of playing DGP, he never knew anything about his mother. That she is a former Navigator, he learns from Win, that the Goddess of Creation is from Beroba. And many criticized me for demanding that he figure it out on his own. Here I repeat again: 2000 years. It's too much.

It's less about waiting for that long and more about Ace in 2022/2023 is the closest he's even been to achieve that goal. Especially since a few of those past lives doesn't have him involved with the DGP whatsoever, meaning those attempts failed because they didn't have a place to start with. Possibly after the failure of the wish to be reunited with her, he likely searched on his own, potentially using a wish or two we're not aware of to aid him. His lack of success is what pushed his wishes seen in-show.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

I also can't help but note that Ace needed to spend a wish to become a celebrity. Let me remind you: 2000 years. He could just upload videos with stories about the past and become famous. On the other hand, this requires charisma.

The purpose of his wishes is for the mother too. Becoming celebrity is only a means to the end in his plans, meaning so that if her mother can notice his presence, she may make contact with him.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

I don't know if it's the actor's or the script's fault (most likely both), but Ace mostly has two emotions: an arrogant calmness and an indignant scream. And sometimes a smile. I only realized much later that, after discovering the truth about his mother, Ace was furious and only thanks to this Michinaga managed to defeat him and Geyser. And so, in the final, we have a rider with a brick face fighting against a rider without a face. Very emotional.

There are people who are the stoic types that rarely show outward emotions, and it also doesn't mean that they don't have limits to not display emotion when under extreme stress or in other highly emotional situations. It's also one type of personality people can have, and I'd rather people not deem those who don't act like the way they expect (or just, not excite someone enough) as having "no personality". For Ace, he said that he's used to surprises to be a stoic. And you being unable to spell things correctly such as "Geyser" there still confuses. Beroba also has the credit for his defeat cuz she's the one who started the JGP and gave the means for eliminating the Riders by turning them into bubbles (even if the idea is executed in Michinaga's game), despite the power gap between those 2.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Michinaga clearly did more mischief (I'm still sure he was willing to betray Ace during his hunt for the riders, but Archimedel's threat got in the way). On the other hand, he apologized to Sara (although his fault for her death is minimal), while Keiwa is not in front of Tsumuri.

He has said canonically that Ace would be the last in his hunt for Riders when they worked there. Michinaga declares to be the type who think human sacrifices are "necessary" for the greater good to Beroba, so he does still see good in statistics at that stage regarding Sara's death (which he continues to do the same).

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

So, instead of running away, she should have attempted suicide? Morality is vile and dangerous. Even if you look at the situation from the point of view of the main age category of the show, it turns out to be nonsense. Parents may scream, but they still love you. So, the situation is not suitable for such a message.

It's not suicide smh, making everyone forget isn't suicide, there's un-personing or something called damnatio memoriae. And the parents "still love you" part are still the part of "altruism doesn't always mean good".

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

He could simply say that his wish to know everything is the only wish to be made. Because if he knows everything, he will be able to fulfill any of his desires on his own, without turning to the DGP. This is just one extra line of text and quite in the nature of the character, but it was not added. Because then there were no plans about what to do with this rider.

He still has to actually win the DGP to achieve that. And even if he knows everything, it won't necessarily mean he'd be able to put that into practice, like Philip in W with Gaia Memories, who can be rather impractical in his approaches.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

I should also mention why I am against his desire to become a famous musician. And in general, all similar. Because a popular musician should be popular for his music, not his ability to take down monsters. Just imagine the reverse situation: Ace destroys Jamato Knight and Tsumuri announces that BTS is the winner of the DGP. Yes, they did not participate, but they deserved to win with their music.

Fighting monsters is only a means to the end to gain those wishes, only because the DGP is the one that offers the prize of having a wish magically granted, but they have the condition of "saving the world" from Jamatos to fulfill that. Of course life itself isn't all about fighting and the wishes are like that, but they're fulfilling the conditions the DGP gave. Quality is subjective, but it's possible that there are something that can be good but unnoticed that Win'd hope that his wish can perhaps spread their popularity or such (though dunno about maintaining it). And it's something that never happen ever to randomly have a winner decided as someone who doesn't participate, it's only what you cook on your mind - one also can be a musician who happens to be a good fighter (if they destroy the Jamato Knight), people can be many things.

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Originally Posted by Annuga

His primary wish of eradicating the DGP and the sorrow it brings is already done and he was so hardfocused on that, it feels very natural.

He has good intentions, to achieve that simplistic joy, but he feels he won't ever be able too when the DGP exists, as the DGP (and the Riders in his eyes) will constantly bring misery, he'd do anything to take them down - becoming like them in the process. Ace's powers are what eventually settles him down to have him being the one to deal with the sorrow that the DGP brings in his stead, while taking time to change himself in the way (I wonder if he hasn't changed that he still learns that humans can bring each other down without DGP - conflict will always be present among living beings, that he can cook up another extreme plan to "stop conflict").

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Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

(I do think my biggest criticism of Geats on my brain at the moment, is the Gaim-esque treatment Tsumuri has gotten in these last couple of arcs, being fought over by every side whilst having nearly no agency in the entire finale).

Honestly dunno why that Gaim-esque move is treated as something bad done by the show, when it'd show how bad the people who wants to make use of them for their own ends as in objectifying them - of which another female also objectify her in Samas here (regardless of how wasted she is). The god/goddess does get established as losing will, Tsumuri becomes a near empty shell, but Win here holds off Zitt to let Tsumuri regain her will and escape on her own and convince Keiwa.

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Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

Suel, meanwhile, I get as a stand-in for commercial control of people's lives as product thematically he's very strong, but as a character he's not very exciting to watch get beaten. With his whole time control schtick, I'm just reminded of Masamune Dan (the Zeppan-dad), another Takahashi-penned overlord wannabe.

Both him and Masamune also spends the first half of the series pulling the strings from behind the scenes, before intervening, and regards other living beings as tools rather than people, with Masamune treating them merely as products that can be discontinued (murdered) and Suel viewing them as circuls animals that doesn't need to be fed anymore, also discards Mitsume who is weakened now, and Tsumuri goes without saying.

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Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

(although Kyuun being part of her life is a little weird if she doesn't remember the DGP stuff, given the power imbalance (or does she, just not Ace becoming literal God?))

Only Ace eh? No way those people won't remember everything before. It's the very thing Ace is against, he returns people's memories because he disagrees with the DGP controlling people's fate by taking away those memories. He shouldn't do against what he stands for.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Yeah, I think the whole becoming a god thing was too sudden, considering the show's logic already established that a god cannot have free will and Ace had previously rejected godhood to keep it, which is somehow irrelevant now that his physical body was destroyed. It's also contrary to his statement of the arc, that he would create a world where everybody can be happy, but turns out there's no room for Ace. He did exactly the opposite of what Mitsume wanted for him and now the Ukiyo family are missing their son.

God not having free will part was done in them being petrified. They lose their will if they're petrified, Tsumuri manages to keep some when resisting petrification. Ace deals with that problem by letting go of his mortal body, so he can freely use his power without the risk/penalty of getting petrified anymore.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Regarding Neon's turn towards romantic focus, I'm okay with it, since her original desire of finding true love was already granted by her parents, so it makes sense that she would find a new desire after that. I don't mind Neon/Kyuun being canon now, since Kyuun has become a better person, but I respect that Fredbob392 will disagree.

That is when... like what you said, people'd acknowledge Neon's turn towards romantic as a separate wish. It should be done because her love before was truly about any kind of love, this one is just a separate wish. But there are also still some who claims that "she gets her true love now" using this scene completely ignoring canon dialogues and still insisting that love is only romantic, when this one is, as you said, separate wish.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Regarding my thoughts on Geats overall, I enjoyed it, even though it failed to stick the landing. This confirms my judgment that Takahashi doesn't have the stamina to write a year-long show without help, but I'm grateful that he was able to keep it going consistently until at least the end of the Desire Royale arc, which still allows for a better second half than EX-Aid's Chronicle hell. Thanks to Takebe as producer, none of us had to suffer another Job Competition either. I think Geats is easily the best show Takahashi has ever written, but the flaws became clear as the plot increased in complexity, with more devices needing to be juggled and inevitably, some of them hit the floor.

Though this may can burden Takahashi more, I felt that this'd be more about Geats not being enough for usual 49 episodes format IMO, and the final arc has to only fit something that is "necessary" for the plot's completion, which'd be why I think it can fail to stick the landing. Personally I'd see more things that can happen between the shows and the characters before the show ends, like even... people talking about Win's survival, Samas and Suel's direct presence (that I feel Zitt curbs with his existence, albeit Zitt is Suel's avatar), how the cast reacts without being forced to keep things secret anymore (as DGP participants), etc., but it got held off by duration.

Edit: Seems that the reason why the final arc can be cramped is, more on Takebe, but perhaps the reason that you'd agree. As you said, Sara's the heart, and... Takebe wants to keep Sara alive for a while, because she's the beacon of light to her and doesn't want for the show to turn dark fast.... So I guess there's also restriction again in Takahashi's team... Takebe sorta of sabotaged Takahashi's talent rather than what you expect... albeit it's about Sara.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I have mixed opinions about the characters. Ironically, Keiwa, my least favorite Rider of the main 5, had my favorite conclusion to his development arc. Neon often doesn't feel like much of a Rider (despite having one of the most OP Raise Buckles), even though I love her as a character and supported her desire for true love. Michinaga brought some much needed critical thinking to a frequently irrational group, but he stagnates when his critical voice is no longer needed. Win is fun, but he's just there. Ace is cool and charismatic (when he's not making annoying animal metaphors), but as a protagonist, he's weak. His arc ended too early and the rest of the show ended up being about everybody else, including Daichi.

Well... I didn't expect this before with you mostly speaking of them in high regards, albeit I do expect that Keiwa would be your least favorite (though I hope that you can still be objective regarding evaluating him). Like regarding Neon being on the running of favorite female Rider before (which should be something remarkable for franchise's track record), but turning out to not feel much like one, dunno how'd this ends up, though I do can say that her story may not be that connected to the main male Riders' rivalries. I'd think that, Win is the one that is the most rational, and he'd be what I support, not Keiwa AND Michinaga. He has clear head to look through DGP archives, not Keiwa's cynicism and Michinaga's extremism. Though someone points out that Win helps with his connection to the DGP. Dunno if it's not your thing for characters' arc "ending too early", but perhaps sometimes they should give some screentime of how their developed self would be, rather than only displaying very short time of them... I feel that it'd be how people'd not acknowledge their development as it won't stick in their memories, like I think many of the main Riders' development to be more of badasses, like Wataru beating the shit out of Fangires untransformed at the end of Kiva.