[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

I think this is definitely not a problem, because the writers of the riders do what they want as long as they can sell toys. And in general, if the franchise listened to overseas fans, the shows would strive to resemble Faiz much more.

Talking about audience strictly, no relation to how writers do things, just how they view what's presented to them. And this is the opposite of talking about dark being bad, not glorifying it to make shows like Faiz more. I think the problem if moral is viewed as something childish only present in lighter shows and done make it accessible to general audience, likely any lessons would be dismissed because adults can view them as above guidance, while children may do that in hopes for getting happy ending presented to good guys, only to be later get hit by reality check and dismiss/spread view (out of frustration) virtue as weakness based on their experiences of for example, getting stepped over.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

The part about bringing up the "spirit of Kamen Rider" totally sounds like me, haha. Generally though, I think I'm pretty fair to Geats, giving it both praise and criticism where I deem appropriate. Even the show itself disagrees with Geats fanatics, like those who proudly identify as Kekeras and support his ideals without a hint of irony, while selectively ignoring the other sponsor-related aspects of their personalities. Fortunately, these are likely a vocal minority, as I know there are many healthy Geats fans who like it for the right reasons and if some of them happen to dislike Gotchard, at least it can be for their own reasons instead of jumping on the "it's not Geats" bandwagon. I agree that it's okay for people to like (or even dislike) both, instead of the absurd concept that you can only like one or the other.

Well there was a reason why I asked you about the difference between Faiz and Gaim view before. But Geats haters out of "spirit of Kamen Rider" are typically those who'd be mad at others rejecting Keiwa's plan in ep. 8, which you didn't do. By extension, the overall premise may feel straying to them for showing people joining something out of personal gain/desires and validating that (equals validating doing good for ulterior motives), keeping their wishes until the end, when "spirit of Kamen Rider" expects people to throw it away for those who "need it more", or had those with 'selfish' wish realize it's wrong and follow suit. Kamen Riders are "supposed" to sacrifice their happiness and giving up everything they have for "greater good", to subject themselves to misery or lose their life for others' sake, as stated by PortalTron here.

Overall, wanting personal happiness or something for yourself is "supposed" to be something bad, you have to neglect your welfare and commit yourself to service of others only for "spirit of Kamen Rider". For Geats, something like JGP is really taken for granted, when it's about helping people, wanting to achieve a better world, and fight against monsters who would ruin it, including people pointing out that their actions are not rewarded there. That should be a "spirit of Kamen Rider" Geats displayed, for those hating Geats for "straying" from it - being selfish doesn't necessarily conflict with selfless heroism, you can want to have your dream come true AND do good things. Even Revice's ending had Ikki realizing that he can want things for himself, like pursuing soccer, instead of putting his family ahead of himself all the time.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Fortunately, these are likely a vocal minority, as I know there are many healthy Geats fans who like it for the right reasons and if some of them happen to dislike Gotchard, at least it can be for their own reasons instead of jumping on the "it's not Geats" bandwagon. I agree that it's okay for people to like (or even dislike) both, instead of the absurd concept that you can only like one or the other.

Tbh so far I see more complaints about Geats fanatics bashing Gotchard for not being like it rather than seeing those direct complaints myself, though not doubting if they may exist. None of them are also related to Kekera identifiers (and those may be jokes btw, I just can have trouble differentiating between jokes or serious stuff in this case). Those on "it's not Geats" bandwagon may not be Geats fans, but just "dark" and "edgy" fans. There are good enough people who also oppose that to the "not dark" or "childish" view (KR is for children) though which is good (and makes my job easier), albeit I do wish that for children isn't viewed as equating "low quality" or "shallow", which may be what leads to the complaint/defense to certain shows for appearence.

I think complaints about Gotchard I generally see are the actings of two leads of Hotaro being too loud (unfortunately I agree with this, I'm not into the constant shoutings) and Rinne being wooden, Hotaro's lack of buildup to be Chemies advocate (and can feel as it's done to turn him walking toy commercial), Supana being cliched, being too basic/generic & no unique spins (though I don't care about being basic, everything is repeated on media anyway), lacking setting of either school or alchemy.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I do think some dark shows can fit the "senseless depraved fantasy" description. But like you brought up before, my favorite Faiz and least favorite (before Revice took that dishonor) Gaim were both dark, so it's all about the execution. I don't mind if a show is light or dark or whatever, as long as the tone is consistent and the characters' actions maintain my suspension of disbelief, regardless of the plot. Despite being lighthearted, Gotchard can take itself seriously when necessary and I like that.

I'm talking more about the view on light and dark shows, regardless of the reception for either. The preconceived notions that light will always be viewed as black and white stuff, and dark is always all grey. Basically, anyone on 'good side' on light show can do no wrong (like schadenfreude below), but anyone on darker show will get condemned for any slightest wrong or even something bad outside their control. For the latter, regarding KR's bad organizations, Geats seem to be only show where people got blamed for participating in DGP without knowledge of its true nature of being done for entertainment/using people as fuel, depicting the people as helping the DGP rob happiness for personal gain (even Keiwa won't be safe from this, though it happens when Keiwa was blaming Mitsume and too stubborn), but of course people on shows like Saber or Revice get no criticism for working on SoL/Fenix without knowledge of its true nature and unwittingly advanced their plans. I think show type doesn't matter, morality just exists in every spectrum in any case, from white, to many shades of grey, to black.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

You also mentioned before that bad behavior can be dismissed as schadenfreude, like Reika's abuse in Saber which I called out as I don't want to see sympathetic characters put in danger of severe injury unless the show treats it seriously. I want the action to be proportionate to the character receiving it.

Yeah, continuing the talk about double standards this tends to happen more in lighthearted stuff. Sure there are shows that has vitriolic banter dynamics like (though these are darker shows) Shinji/Ren and Build's cast, but seems that any case of cast "infighting" in lighthearted shows are treated just like that, where friends often can bicker, insult, and fight each other all the time which is "normal" and they'd be relieved afterwards. I think if even people can ship mortal enemies like Batman and Joker, then it's expected actions like Reika's abuse can be trivialized too, particularly if nothing bad comes out of it. Seems that the view is, anytime they're still on the same side afterwards, they can't be real enemies and/or pulling real atrocities on one another (these actions are often depicted as being tsundere) - they're always "tight-knit Avengers".

If above happens (or even tamer things) on darker show ofc it'd be the show displaying dysfunctional team at odds with each other. Late Geats can be viewed as this just for the cast not living on the same roof. Unfortunately, I feel that this is something often done by Inoue though (particularly if he's secondary writer)... characters being turned into assholes for comedy, thus I often point out about schadenfreude dynamics on for example Die's threads and what I wish for comedy to not only viewed as only being able with asshole acts (or characters being utterly stupid, 2 common comedy directions) where being funny doesn't mean it's not wrong action - asshole characters are often liked (or justified) for being funny thus entertaining.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

In Saber, Kento suffered for fifteen years because of his father's betrayal, then he suffered in a more diverse way, and after eight (already six) years, his broken heart awaits him again.

It's not all binary, being light doesn't mean that it features something bleak or tragedy. Even Gotchard also has disturbing representation of real-life fears like a (failed) mass-murderer, a stalker pursuing a high-school girl, and a violent thug.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Revice has dark topics like abuse and loneliness, but depicts them in a "lighthearted" way that trivializes the emotions. The characters get over their problems too easily, due to the Igarashi siblings yelling at them enough times, as Kinoshita likely doesn't care enough to focus on inconvenient things that slow down the plot.

Gotchard's above. Otherwise, yeah though Revice can feel like you said of trivializing problems, still Geats haters can buy the lighthearted presentation to deem it as true to form of KR as well. Moving on from a show you dislike though, it's not exclusive to Revice that something lighthearted can really be presented as trivializing to give the impression of the world and people being wonderful and hopeful for children. Not against that ofc, but maybe talking about misguided approach for it, I think many light shows can pull this to appease them, kinda similar to above you said about Takumi lying about loved one's death.... or even, as I've already said in first comment, keeping tame ratings for general audience, wanting to delve into those darker topics but likely forced to tone it down in release.

For creating hope light shows do strive to create role model heroes (can be why they can come off as having "no personality" or "one dimensional", while being overbearing and preachy, they're created like walking PSA) and, some people's view may be that they won't deserve to be called heroes if they fail or make things worse (like complaints of "why is a hero weak and beaten up, not saving anyone", regardless of them trying), so they gotta make the hero succeed by showing that the right opinion is only the hero's (and those similar), everyone else is wrong and they will convince them why, which means elevating others. It depends on the execution ofc, but can feel that those who hate Geats out of "spirit of Kamen Rider" does so because it's not Keiwa "inspiring" others to be more like him (in regard of wishes, e.g. others realizing their wish are wrong and trivial to improving the world) unlike Shinji, which is to be "expected" for this franchise's spirit. Keiwa himself can also get hate for being a "wuss" for that.

Guess it's why I can be wary of idealistic or optimistic view to see the best in others or interpret situations positively, it can trivialize people's atrocities or terrible situations. Far from limited to Revice, explaining here that positivity in general isn't necessarily better or healthier for moral/lesson than something "depressing", as it can sugarcoat things leading to toxic positivity. The society encouraging to deny and repress emotions that may seem darker (when not managed properly) such as fear, anger, sadness, etc. also doesn't help and can perpetuate toxic positivity.... but they're also healthy, indispensable emotions.