[Locke]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan

That's not the point. The point is it was Kirk's plan and it worked. You can't expect one person to plan something and pull it off by himself. The reason you have a team is so they can help each other make it work. Just because shit happens and Kirk needed help doesn't make him " someone who needs a bib because he's dribbling down himself", which is one of the comments I object to.



Howso? Because he told Kirk to reconsider the order? It was still Kirk's decision and plan.



Again, Harrison wasn't alone in the assault, maybe he did more than the others, but he may not have been able to handle on his own either. Yes, he had his own plans, that Kirk was ill-prepared to deal with, but again, he shouldn't be perfect, or unbeatable. Someone who never loses or makes a mistake is boring, unrealistic and not somethign we can relate to. Of course we want our heroes to be better than us, so we have something to aspire to, but we also have to be able to relate to them somewhat, so we can see that we can go from what we are, to what they are.



That's fine, and is easier for me to process and accept, rather than saying PineKirk is rubbish, since I think the movies do a fine job at showing he's clever, yet flawed, and this one, showing that he can recognize his flaws and work on improving them. He can accept he needs help from his crew. He learns the ARE his family, and not only should he protect them, but he should rely on their talents to complement his, and support his shortcomings.

No but my point is without Harrison Kirk's plan would have failed and he would have died, the plan itself was flawed in the first place. Needing teamwork to make the plan succeed is different than needing Harrison to hold Kirk's hand to stop him smashing into debris.

Kirk would have just fired the missiles if it wasn't for Spock, Spock needed to kick sense into the Captain, the original Kirk was no Sherlock Holmes but he wasn't that reliant on Spock's logic.

Once again, making your hero failable is fine, making your hero useless and kicking him around the floor for two hours is something else entirely.

I think 2009 did PineKirk way more justice, he was just as hotheaded and brash there but his plans actually succeeded more often than they failed and it was a team effort, rather than the crew kind of sighing and then pointing Kirk in the right direction.