[SPLIT LIP]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

PART ONE:

I don't think it's a controversial thing to say that a Rider series tends to document a flawed character who becomes a hero over the course of a 45-50 episode journey.

It's not, but also a ton of Western superheroes do the same.

I'd say Marvel's defining feature is that most of it's heroes are flawed types overcoming/coping with their shortcomings.

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Since Rider series have a finite amount of time to tell their stories, and the major story is about how the rider overcomes his flaw to become a true hero, we don't see much of the actual super hero phase of his life.

Only problem is most of the time these shows have pointless filler, rather than anything important to the story.

And that doesn't mean they can't still be heroes at the same time.

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PART TWO:

I'd also like to present the notion that, despite the Superhero Time branding, most Kamen Riders are Chosen Ones as opposed to superheroes.

Kamen Rider doesn't take on muggers or petty street crime because his goal is to defeat his Fated Enemy. He has bigger fish to fry, as it were.

That's all fine and dandy, but seeing as riders still fight a monster every week, I don't see why they always have to be late to the action.

Why couldn't Kiva have arrived to save everyone, verses arriving to see them freshly drained? And why does he not care? Where's the bigger fish? He doesn't give a shit about ANYTHING. Ditto Agito, who hardly ever even acknowledged the fact that he was a rider to the point where I thought he didn't know, not that he was selfishly and moronically ignoring it in favour of his God-damn tomatoes.

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PART THREE:

Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?

It really seems like the needs of the rider outweigh the needs of anybody.

This is why, and I know all of your are gonna fucking hate me for doing this AGAIN, but W is the best rider so far. He did help people. He was able to safeguard the many by helping the few. He ran a detective agency that easily let him into the happenings of the gaia memory underworld. He helped people, saved lives, and was a hero. The people looked up to him. "Kamen Rider!" they'd shout, knowing if that scarf was blowing in the wind, everything was gonna be okay. This didn't stop him from having problems. Shotaro had massive emotional hurdles to overcome with the guilt he carried over his boss' death, and later coming to terms with being "the weak half" of W. Philip searching for the truth about his family, and what happened when he learned the truth.

They had personal lives, they had problems. But saving people came first. When Shotaro would say "there'll be no tears in my city" he wasn't just making bullshit statements like Kuuga. He meant it, and he busted ass and would risk his life to make sure the people smiled. Shotaro and Philip didn't leave a trail of bodies, they didn't wait around doing nothing until after the Dopant had run amok. If their were casualities, it was never on them. They investigated, they didn't have an unexplained sixth sense or magic violin to tell them where the monster was. Hell, even Ryu was a one-track vengence-seeker, and he'd still save people. (and of course, the best part is Accel gets his revenge, but isn't poisoned by it) The best part of W was easily Shotaro, though, as he totally destroys your reasoning. He takes on the final boss untransformed because he wants to save everyone, including his partner. Dude consistently put everything aside instantly for good. Not the greater good, but good in general. And like I've said before, he frequently used his powers to save people. Mostly Luna's stretch-grab ability.

OOO was also like this, and Kouta so far is, too. And Haruto. (sorry Fourze, never watched you) W's not the only example of a true hero, but he is the best for this debate. Granted, rider shows lately also don't sabotage the heroics by having the monsters being constant killers. Honestly that's for the better. By being twisted humans, wild animals or something not focused purely on killing, the monsters have a reason for not just killing everyone in the city. For example, I don't understand why the Fangire a) don't attack all the time, or b) don't ever have two Fangire or more attack. Sure is contrived and convenient. And sorry Locke, but I GOT to mention the scene in Wizard when Pheonix suggested blowing up a chunk of the city, as that would logically caused a bunch of people to despair and swell their forces against Wizard, and Medusa said no because he might kill a few gates, verses Wizard killing every Phantom and saving every person as things are. Point is, this is how monsters in old Kamen Rider seem all the time. By being just straight up monsters of evil, the shows foolishly remove reason for them not to all-out rampage, or band together. And yet despite the infrequency of the attacks, Wataru still hesitates to fuss and moan about not getting his fucking varnish right when his dad violin starts, while innocent people, sometimes familes, are being killed horribly.

He values violin varnish over human lives. How is that a hero?

I know it sounds like I'm really picking on the fundamentals of Kamen Rider. I'm not. But you see how the "multiple civilian deaths and apathetic Rider" causes more problems than just having an unheroic hero. Or at least have the point be that he's unheroic. If Kiva was truely apathetic, and was a dark, selfish person and, say, Shizuka was the justice-filled one goading him into saving people before fighting a monster, that'd be different. That'd be brillaint, really. If an average person saw this power being used so selfishly and tried to make Kiva more heroic. That'd be a really good idea, and fit with the suit well.

Despite this long rambling, my entire point can honestly be summed up in a simple comparrison:

When a monster attacks a person in W, he kicks them away and helps the person to safety before fighting. When a monster attacks in Kiva, he kicks it away and immediately attacks, leaving the civilian to escape the ensuing chaos themselves. (that is, if the monster hasn't already killed the person as is usually the case)

All I'm asking is why can't we have a Rider help someone stand up and run before the fight breaks out?

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Originally Posted by Locke

A solid argument, but then it only makes me question, 'why do it like that?'.

I don't know, because W didn't, and Kiva didn't. Start of both shows they're both in full swing rider-wise, and yet they're the most poignent examples for the issue.