[Kamen Rider Lucha]

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

But the filler is not a problem. It's what the filler is.

Fair enough.

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

Like I said, every episode the rider kills a monster. Why can't he just once get there in time? Kiva was able to save his rocker friend, but that actually hurts his case. Only when someone he cared for personally was in danger did he act with enough speed to save him.

I think that speaks volumes about Kiva's character, though. And shows that he's not intended to be heroic up front -- he has way too much baggage.

I'd argue that Wataru's main flaw is his passivity, of which reluctance to involve himself in the Fangire conflict is a part.

This timidity is the hurdle he must leap to become the hero he needs to be.

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

This is completely wrong.

Me? Wrong??? Blasphemy!

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

W was a true hero from the beginning. Being a true hero is not about skill, or knowledge. It's about the will to act. THAT is heroism. Saving people is heroism. Feeling for the people you save or cannot save is heroism. Want, regret, action, for others. That's heroism. That is what too many riders lack.

I was about to present my definition of heroism, but I'm glad I don't have to! You just summed up everything I would have said.

I think you're right about Shotaro/W. He (and really all of the neo-Heisei primary Riders, come to think of it) is set up as a hero from the get-go. What I disagree with is the notion that all Riders should follow the same heroic-up-front model.

I find it interesting, from a character perspective, that earlier Riders generally had to overcome a hurdle that prevented them from being a hero -- whether that hurdle was a lack of self-confidence, arrogance, selfishness, ignorance, or passivity.

I'm not saying Shotaro/Phillip isn't a flawed guy, but his flaws don't obstruct his innate heroism. Other Riders are not innately heroic, and I find the various journeys from jerk/idiot/coward to hero over the course of a series to be pretty fulfilling.

Though I admit, maybe there aren't enough pure heroes in this hero franchise. And maybe that's the point of this whole discussion.

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Originally Posted by SPLIT LIP

If you're not going to deconstruct heroes being reactionary, stop writing them as ineffectual heroes. Stop making up situations where people die if you're not going to analyze it or have a reason for people dying. If they just die because, that's bad writing.

I agree. Every element of a show should be done with some narrative purpose in mind, especially character deaths, and many Rider series fail to address the intent. Kiva, in particular, exemplifies an odd callousness about death (which makes a bit more sense later on, but not ever enough to justify the volume of nonchalant murder).

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If these weren't monsters who exist merely to kill and destroy, you might have a point.

But no, there is no moral standing with the majority of Kamen Rider monsters. Especially the Fangire, who've always killed someone in the past before re-emerging in the present.

Drawing first blood on a creature who's entire existence is cruelty and death is not a problem. Letting them kill time and again, is.

True, the issue of morality might not be an issue with Fangires or Mirror Monsters or their ilk. But what about Orphenochs, Zodiarts, Dopants, Inves, Phantoms, and certain varieties of Greed? Those threats' motivations are more complex (even certain Fangires turn out to be more morally ambiguous that you might expect).


At the end of the day, I see what you're saying. Maybe the franchise could stand to have a few more Ws and a few fewer Kivas. But I still think the jerk/idiot/loser-to-hero arc is more compelling (to me) than the hero-reinforces-his-own-heroism arc.