[Kamen Rider Lucha]

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Originally Posted by MarsHottentot

Sigh... yeah, you're right (hangs head, kicks dirt, then looks out at the lake). It's just kind of stupid, y'know? These shows aren't that much different than the DC stuff on CW, at least budget wise - and people watch the shit out of that. But, yeah, those awesome toku quirks... you either get it, or you don't.

I agree, it's really stupid. I'd go as far as to say that Kamen Rider, Ultraman, and Super Sentai are often significantly better than any DC/CW show, especially from an action and innovative storytelling perspective.

What I don't agree with is the comparable budget between the DC/CW and toku shows. The DC shows cost $1-2 million per episode, whereas the budget of your average toku episode would be insanely lucky to max out at $500k. And I do think the low budget is the most alienating factor for Western/US audiences. (Although, the commercial failure of Pacific Rim in the US makes me think that there's not a huge audience for Toei-style Henshin Hero stuff, even if the budget is substantial. We'll have to see how the new Power Rangers movie does at the box office before we're able to draw a firm conclusion.)

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Originally Posted by Powerman293

Yeah, but don't we as enthusiast watchers feel the same way about mainstream media? The CGI designs are shit, the effects are way too over the top, the focus on spectacle/CG take away from characters and the story.

I don't feel that way about mainstream media at all. I just have a different set of expectations for mainstream stuff than I do from niche stuff.

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Originally Posted by Powerman293

That also makes me ask, is toku just seen as it's bad by everyone outside the fandom? Like, I feel like a lot of the best TV show stories I've seen are from Rider, but is the budget/toy focus too distracting for people to focus on the good?

Look at the public's perception of old Godzilla movies. Look at people's perception of Power Rangers. I wouldn't exactly say they're 100% positive. Many mainstreamers, if they watch this stuff at all, do so ironically -- like, MST3K style. They watch to make fun of the men in suits, or to laugh at the bad dubs, or to giggle at the swarms of histrionic Japanese people feeling from giant monsters. And hey, that's a fair way to derive enjoyment from these things. But it's not a mindset that screams, "I think of this as a legitimate, high-quality artistic accomplishment."

I think the low budget and toy-focus establishes certain expectations in the minds of mainstream viewers -- namely, that the show will be cheap, juvenile, and not worthy of sincere appreciation. If that's a viewer's first impression, it's gonna be hard to change.

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Originally Posted by Powerman293

I've seen plenty of Rider series but I've never felt really lost on what's going on due to the culture differences. For example: My favorite Rider show Blade is about pretty common themes throughout media. Betrayal, loss, hard choices, coming of age, and sacrifice being some examples I can think off the top of my head. Is there just some sort of different tone to it that being Japanese inherently does that I can't distinguish because I'm used to anime and this kind of stuff?

Well, if you're posting on here, you're obviously more open to Japanese culture than a lot of Westerners. I don't think our attitude toward these cultural differences is indicative of mainstream America's. I think we're probably more open-minded, more willing to challenge ourselves, than the average mainstream viewer.

When I hear mainstream American audiences talk about anime and Japanese culture, it's usually with a hint of racist disdain. They say shit like, "oh, Japanese people are so fucking weird, look at their tentacle rape porn and fixation on cartoon pedophilia," as if that's all Japanese media has to offer. That's a gross mindset, but it's hard for me to look at all the racial grossness happening in America today and not find it reflected in the mainstream's attitude toward Japanese cultural exports.

Tone is also, I think, a very real concern. There's a lot of unusual tonal juxtaposition in Japanese media that doesn't really happen in American media. In Kamen Rider specifically, we're used to seeing OTT slapstick comedy in one scene, brutal violence in the next, and heartfelt melodrama in the scene after that. That tonal mishmash happens in some American media, but not to the extremes it does in its Japanese counterparts. That whiplash could probably be alienating to mainstream American viewers who are more accustomed to a consistent tone.

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Originally Posted by Powerman293

I agree. It'll be niche, but it certainly has a much higher ceiling of appeal it could reach though. I feel like Rider series could rival some popular animes in the states (not the super huge ones like Attack on Titan) if Toei tried hard enough.

Maybe Amazons will open people up a bit.

I totally agree, and with Shout's Super Sentai and Cruchyroll's Ultraman releases, we're seeing the niche audience expand every day. I can only imagine that expansion will continue with Amazons.

And you know what? I'd love to see Kamen Rider, Sentai, Ultraman, Garo, et al break out into the mainstream. I just don't think it's realistic to expect it to.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Oh right, I forgot to respond to that. What the heck does that even mean?! That's a really unsatisfactory, vaguely insulting reason to give as to why people don't watch Toku.

How is that insulting? Do you think I'm underestimating the American mainstream's appreciation of foreign language material? If so, please point out all of the foreign language films on 2016's list of top 100 highest grossing movies in the US. Here, let me do the work for you. There's one, No Manches Frida, and it clocks in at #93 on the list.

Just because you and I are interested in other cultures' entertainment doesn't mean that the majority of people are. If they were, we'd see a lot more foreign language films do well at the box office. We'd see all sorts of foreign language TV shows on broadcast TV. But... we don't. And that's okay! I have assigned no value charge to that fact.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Just because it's foreign doesn't mean it's alien. These are shows for little kids. I refuse to believe they're so deeply steeped in Japanese culture that they must be "deciphered".

Look, I'm not saying that mainstream Americans aren't capable of understanding this stuff. I'm saying that they're not interested in challenging themselves to do so. The material may not be alien, but it's certainly alienating. And I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing -- I'm just making an observation.

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

It's just obscure, you know? There doesn't have to be some deep reason behind that.

But... why is it obscure? Just 'cause? That's a really lazy logic. There's a reason for everything, and I hardly think that saying "Americans are historically disinterested in challenging themselves to experience other cultures" is a particularly profound or earth-shattering proposition.

Also... if you think that's the only reason I put forth, you didn't really read my whole argument which credits its niche status primarily to the shows' low budget.