[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I don't think anyone's excusing what Umi's doing when she acts poorly, but we can all try and understand or address why she's doing that. It's not in the best interests of appreciating a story if we're going to look at troubled characters as complicit in their own flaws 100% of the time. Sometimes folks got motivations, sometimes folks only have justifications. Talking about them and trying to understand their perspective isn't an endorsement.

Forgot to read this (and sorry for addressing this), I already know that. I didn't say it before but having a tragic past does influence what kind of treatment (including things like punishment, advice, etc. Like Kenzaki for the latter.) we should give to those characters, just that it doesn't make wrong behaviors right, it shouldn't be rationalized. Any type of characters, nice or jerk alike deserve equal opportunities to be analyzed and deconstructed.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Man, I don't know that he does? Certainly not to the visceral extent that Kenzaki does. Every scene Tachibana has had with U.N.D.A.D. has been with him showing respect and deference. When he pushes back at all, it's with an air of... almost groveling? I never really got the impression that he wants anything bad to happen to U.N.D.A.D.

Talking about the part where Tachibana told Kenzaki the Undeads are Yoshito's responsibility, I mean that, he wants Yoshito to solve the Undead problem himself, without outside help.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Kenzaki doesn't seem like that character to me, though, that thinks that pragmatically. He's approached dangerous creatures with no powers of his own before. I think Kenzaki views being a Rider as an option to help people, not as the sole path.

And of course, I was comparing him with the other Rider leads, which mostly are Kenzaki's type of character. The other Rider leads, like for example Yusuke, also doesn't want to fight, doesn't revere/seek Rider's powers, but use that as a necessity to fight off threats. He has approached the likes of Joker yeah, but most Undeads weren't, and other Rider leads are also mostly like that to monsters.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I’m never going to be a big fan of the U.N.D.A.D. plot. He’s a boring character, no matter if he’s in a lab cooly explaining to Tachibana why it’s fine to assault Kenzaki, or if he’s having a sweaty, existential freak-out in an aquarium.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

One of the many problems with the U.N.D.A.D. plot is that the only character with an emotional connection to him is Hirose, and she’s been completely absent from his story. Tachibana or Kenzaki would bring up his daughter, but it’d be brushed off without much interest on his behalf. But the second the story shifts focus to how Hirose feels about all of this, how it affects her, it’s suddenly a lot more interesting.

Yeah, Trial B, though the one to blame behind all of this isn't from him, which likely also took advantage of Trial B's Yoshito look for all the others.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Kenzaki and Tachibana both spend the episode Knowing What’s Best For Hirose, and I don’t think it’s entirely out of character. Or, I guess, how they get to being paternalistic dopes has a weird Kamen Rider Blade logic to it.

I probably was going to ask why were you more lenient towards these 2 acting this way, though this, and below part already summed it up (probably I would bring this episode up in other similar topic discussions though). I would like to know that, even if here, Tachibana seems to not have step 2, what would you say regarding Kenzaki giving sympathy to Hajime? I know he succeeded in rubbing off Hajime and potentially saving the world from Joker, but what if Kenzaki's attempt to Hajime also failed as Tachibana did here? Probably his success in Hajime also partly influences him to do the same regarding Trial B? Even with him yelling towards Trial B before, he did similar to Hajime, declaring him the worst existence at early part.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

It ended up making this a story that I actually really loved in hindsight, while kind-of loathing in the moment. It’s an episode full of my least favorite tropes, which is infuriating, but then it’s critiquing and admonishing those tropes, which I adore.

Yeah, being overprotective would give zero credit to anyone, no matter what they have, for their misguided deeds attempted for their sake. Kotaro just outright telling Yoshito (actually Trial B) being alive as a joy probably was too much for him. And what you say about Hirose putting to rest any responsibility/guilt, aside for letting Riders strike Trial B as they want, what do you mean? She still fights off Undeads with the other Riders as mission control for now right? Her responsibility/guilt equals to her fighting off Undeads because that's what Yoshito did, so putting away her responsibility would mean her letting Undeads be (which like, what Tachibana wants regarding Kenzaki to Yoshito)? And regarding intelligence (unless you count out Tachibana as Team Blade), Tachibana is a BOARD scientist like Hirose too, and he's (supposed to be) a professional, but...