[Kurona]

... man. I knew this day would come.

Time for me to defend the only Tokusatsu show in existence I despise!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

Wataru is just plain awful. People rag on Ryotaro all the time for being a wimp, but I think he's by far the more heroic protagonist. Wataru is aggravatingly passive. He almost never takes initiative, only leaps into action when the violin on the wall tells him to, and then spends the rest of his time moping, bathing, and moping while bathing. The only time he really seems to be working on his own impetus is late in the series when he decides to erase himself from time because his girlfriend died.

I definitely have my grievances with Wataru -- I'd go as far as to label him my least favourite Rider protagonist, in fact. But I think he is the greatest positive the show has to offer (which I guess shows you exactly how low my opinion of Kiva is). He certainly could have stood to have had a more fluid progression, absolutely; where he slowly starts to take charge in a clearer way than it all getting stuffed at the end, but looking at him as a static character he is fairly interesting and cute in his own way. Despite having Ryotarou just last season he still stands out as having a unique, distinct personality amongst main riders and his shtick of not leaving the house can be fun! I definitely found myself relating to him a little as I was somewhat like him when I was younger, and frankly it's just great to have someone nice on the cast. This is hardly a deep dive on his psych, here -- I just think he's kinda neat, especially when contrasted with Kiva's fighting style!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switchblade

The other thing that kills the show for me is that it seems to be deathly allergic to the concept of explanation. There is so much stuff that happens on this show for no apparent reason. Some of these are merch related - there's a baby Castle Doran because there's a toy of it, I will grant you that much. There is so much in the plot that never gets a reasonable explanation, though. Yuri and Maya, definitely massive examples of that. Where the hell did Tatsulot come from? Why is he living inside the walls of Castle Doran? Why did he suddenly break out when Wataru had a temper tantrum? None of this is ever covered. Even smaller plots, like why is Wataru channeling Otoya for an episode - never explained. It's really frustrating to watch the show because there are so many times when it just throws shit at you and expects you to roll with it like it all makes sense.

Good!

...

Okay, okay, that's a little much; it's not great. A lot of things like Tatsulot I would have appreciated slightly more of a reaction to from the characters than Kivat going "you're hanging out with us in the bath now? ugh, you're so annoying and young", and he's certainly not a character that really meant something to anything. Again, he's very Accel Timer. But other stuff I'm actually fine with! I like a show that doesn't care too much for explaining things and just letting them play out as an Experience, throwing logic to the wall to be about the emotions and characterisation that flow forth. I mean, I am one of those people that likes Zi-O, you know? The only times it matters to me is when, well, emotions and characterisation don't result. Man, Tatsulot kinda sucks. Man, most of these characters got nothing. Man... it's hard to say nice things about Kiva for long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamcastegirl

Gosh, I didn't even know where to start with him! I agree with everything you said. Like at first, I was, like, it's okay, he's just a bit character, whatever, they'e in a band, but then he came back as, like, a military wunderkind, and had Nago crying in his wake every scene, and I was bewildered, I just absolutely failed to understand what was happening, and why it was happening.

Mostly agree with this, but with the addition: Kengo when he was introduced was the brightest spot in the season for me. I'm kinda drawn to these types of goofy, optimistic characters admittedly -- you show me a kid in a rock band who's supposed to be tough but is actually wide-eyed and dorky and says things like "Kiva rocks!" and I'm falling in love, dunno what to tell you! It's kinda something that helped keep me going with this show - when Kengo came into the scene he just instantly completed a cute little group with Wataru and the girl he always hangs out with (I don't know which one they're all interchangeable and terrible because Inoue doesn't know how to write women) to form a nice group dynamic that kept me coming back. Kengo just felt like he completed Wataru and was guiding him on through his characterisation! Someone who genuinely liked him for who he was, who admired him even, who didn't truly judge him for his personality; and was outgoing and loud enough to make it look like Wataru might just come out of his shell. It was great!

...

And then, they... yeah, they done that with him? I wouldn't so opposed to this shift in characterisation, but, how do I put it... it felt like Inoue was speedrunning Takumi and Kiba from 555 but without what truly made them special and interesting. Like if he just wanted to boast he could do this star-crossed lovers thing again where a whole bunch of drama gets in the way and there's a big fall in their relationship that leads to all sorts of stuff. But it just ends up being really really annoying! Nothing positive results from it in the slightest and Wataru hasn't grown enough by the time it happens for any real impact to be felt from his losing his best friend other than "well, he lost his best friend, that fucking sucks". Inoue, for all the shit I give him, is a man that is very good at nailing drama that threads the needle between frustrating and interesting so it's wild to me that he dropped the ball so hard here.



Though I guess it's weird for me talking about Kiva because my frustrations with it tend to be the opposite of why everyone else hates it? I like Wataru, I like things being unexplained, I don't care too much for how well the plot is structured as long as the emotions and characterisation is there. How did Fish put it? "I don't give a sh*t about the Orphnoch plot"? I'm probably placebo effecting a swear in there to replicate the very strong emotion that came across in his 555 rewatch wrap-up post but that's how it is with me. All of which is to say, uh, I've seen recently that some fans have made a supercut of the Otoya 1986 sections. Made because they love Kiva but feel like 1986 is the best part of the show and that the 2008 sections are the parts that hold it back. I bring this up because I feel the opposite. I'm not going to fully go into why because it goes places I really don't want to discuss, but the 1986 portions of Kiva are the most dreadful, draining, joyless experience I have ever, ever had with Kamen Rider, with Tokusatsu as a whole, with just about any piece of media. I recognise of course that the show literally wouldn't work, wouldn't function without having both halves of the one whole here; each story is important to and informs aspects of the other. But if the Otoya sections of Kiva didn't exist? If it was just Wataru in 2008? I wouldn't go as far as to say I'd like it, but it would maybe be on the level of something like 555 or Ex-Aid to me; something I don't feel very strongly about don't fully regret watching. This is where I'm coming from -- I'm someone who actually doesn't mind a lot of Kiva's modern day stories but cannot stand a single thing about the 80s sections. So I am starting to wonder if this separates me from other people here who don't like Kiva.

One thing I will say about it on a structural level, though? I said it's important that both stories exist to inform and parallel the other, right? ... well, it's a shame then that Kiva kinda sucks at doing that. I can point to one example I like -- the introduction of Rook, where in the modern day sections he's this amnesiac big dumb puppy who Wataru and co are trying to help; but in the 80s section is a devastating monster of mass destruction. It's a fantastic parallel that raises the tension: you know there's going to be a point in the modern day where things snap and everything goes wrong and you're on the edge of your seat terrified for when it's going to happen. That's fantastic! That's great storytelling! I can't recall a single other time in Kiva where this gimmick was used even remotely as effectively! Other episodes have each story parallel each other, sure; but never in a truly interesting way where it actually feels like they're important to each other and aren't just telling two separate narratives that happen to be in the same 25-minute block. Otoya's section isn't just aggravating in its own right, it most of the time feels pointless and a waste of time when he's just doing his own thing while Wataru meanders about his own plot aimlessly alluding to his father. It's a frustrating set of circumstances and one that made Kiva so so hard to watch.


I really hope that didn't get too heated, but I've stored up a lot of these feelings on Kiva for a while. Seeing this thread come into existence, and then see a lot of criticisms be different from my own... it flared something up in me, what can I say! It's at least interesting to compare to the Ryuki thread when I actually agree this time on disliking the show (don't get used to that -- the only other Toku things I truly dislike are Gaim, Drive and the latter thirds of Hibiki and Zero-One). Between these two threads I guess I'm setting myself up to reply to any Rider criticism topic you make!