[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I never said that Olteca's father should be burned down or anything like that though, just that he's an a**hole. I don't think he deserves to die either. If anybody does wish death on him, then yeah, I agree that would be a double standard. Same goes for Gai's father scolding his son for any imperfect results. They're terrible parents, but I think they should still be allowed to live, at least. For not killing humans, yeah, the goodness of humanity isn't applicable in this scenario, but it's just the innate value of Olteca's human life in general that Kamen Riders typically fight to protect. I admit, at this point in the show, the "unto evil" part of the equation is still in effect, as Olteca has yet to show any sign of changing. So my talk of his potential redemption is a hypothetical and separate topic.

Burn Him Down was more of an emphasizing but I probably could've picked a better word yeah, my main point was about how if it's a minor character then their actions are (properly) emphasized more mercilessly and if it's major character then no matter how severe their actions, far more than said minor character, it's about emphasizing pity for them instead (actually there's an implication that Olteca's father abusing the mother too for "they're" terrible parents part). Granted that minor character would have less fleshing so their story isn't known, but still it gave me that vibe before (but you'd view it as separate topic for the redemption) to talk about pity for Olteca here or implying he may love something, compared to more merciless take to his father.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I mean, Adel did commit patricide/regicide, attempted fratricide, frame his brother for patricide/regicide, murder Ryu and brainwash a lot of people in to submission, including his sister. If his acts don't put him on the same level as Olteca then he can't be that far behind. Like where do we draw the line? Is it quantifiable when a villain becomes irredeemable or is it a matter of personal perspective?

There are many other villains that aren't on irredeemable level in the franchise too, but still really nasty, like Tiger, Orchid Undead, TheBee Kageyama, Kai, Saeko (.. both Lucky Clover and Sonozaki), Kazari, Ora, etc. I'd think Adel's at best (worst) there, but not outright on the irredeemable ones like Banno's level (and Olteca's). To me targeting family there is terrible but it'd feel like targeting specific people that stands in his way (to usurp the throne) rather than indiscriminately which I feel is less worse. And yeah he did brainwash a lot of people, but to me it'd be scale-based (his power allowing him to affect more people), and it's like those villains who has ruling the world as a goal (though in Adel's case, becoming the world), and that's a mainstream goal but it won't make them irredeemable by default.

But otherwise, this is overall YMMV, but there are places where you can discuss drawing the line, or the villain quantifying, something like TVTropes' complete monster cleanup or similar one in pure evil discussions of villains wiki. I won't use personal perspective though.... because that can likely focus on deeds committed on major characters more (and yeah... family tend to be major character like Adel's above) or tolerate entertaining bad deeds that are actually worse than the more annoying bad deeds (like mass murdering which can ooze strength, compared to someone being a smug and making their face punchable). Personal perspective also can place annoying assholes as much worse than villains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Sakuragi Nachi did say he wanted Gai to become hated on the same level as Kusaka and considered such hate to be praise. Even after his redemption, it's not like he's suddenly a totally different character as his big ego mostly stays the same, but now he's good and willing to admit the error of his ways. The characters still take a while to warm up to him after his apology, so they really make him work for that forgiveness the same way the viewers do. There were some hints to his tragic backstory, like him often calling Isamu a stray dog, which is symbolic of his affection for Thouzer and how Gai himself had strayed from his dream. Unfortunately, it was probably rushed due to you-know-what screwing up the production that year.

He had the 1000% sthick but it doesn't necessarily mean ego to me. He significantly acts more humble and submissive. He had moments of being surprised in his new position (basement) but it won't be ego as he didn't lash out or put down others around him for that (actually he never displayed ego anymore to others). I'd think while the redemption is terrible, how other characters process it is handled well (the one something that I like better there) as they don't minimize Gai's crimes, but that'd be praise for Aruto, Fuwa, and Yua instead, not about the series or Gai's redemption.

But otherwise, Olteca's father did much worse to him than Gai's father did (Gai's father is the Asian parents' bad stereotype, overly harsh but relatively more 'normal'/'mundane'), and it's used as Olteca further escalates his crimes instead here. If it'd be rushed at that point then just don't do it (the redemption), or the mistake is the production not bringing that up at Gai's buildup instead of him at late. And like human Olteca here, it doesn't need to be done by killing Gai to finish the job even if he's not redeemed. Even as a 'lesson' as per KR teaching morals, it would be a bad idea to use Gai's one as an example. Non-believable ones can instead drive them away the concept of redemption as it'd seem too ridiculous. A redemption done well would be praised like Alain's, no one criticizes that despite Ghost's reputation (Adel's "redemption" also can get criticism like Gai's at times btw, but again, not for Takeru or his family's characters there).