[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I don't know if Horobi has an "utter hatred for humanity"? This part of his character arc is about when you've been steeped in a hateful culture for your whole life, and now you have the opportunity to make up your own mind. He was never really wronged by humanity. No one has a grudge against him that he isn't responsible for. (Like, people hate Horobi, but it's because he's a genocidal terrorist, not because he's a Humagear.) The Ark was the one who turned him against humanity, but the Ark's gone now. The rest of MetsubouJinrai is using this new chapter in their lives to find fulfillment in self-determination. Horobi's terrified of making his own decisions, charting his own course, so he regresses back to the simplicity of the Ark's bullshit, but now with the veneer of his own desires. It's not, though, and that's why it's not helping him.

Horobi specifically went apeshit because Izu (who he killed), and to a lesser extent Jin, both imply that Horobi is like humans, due to having a heart for example. That seems to be extreme hatred for humanity, to even condemn the traits and implication of being like them. You don't have to be wronged to hate something eh? Reminder that Horobi assumed humans as corrupting Izu. Horobi certainly would think that humans hate him because he's Humagear (or similarly malice-related assumptions), or that humans that work with them are just enslaving Humagears. It's true that people hate Horobi because he's a genocidal terrorist, but that can be so much different in Horobi's POV, even if he's laughably wrong, because he had twisted view on humanity or anything they do (and his inculpability, ofc he'd not assume he's a terrorist, he claimed what he did is only "justice"). And regarding Ark, why it doesn't help Horobi's desires? Because Horobi came close into creating another Ark by his actions by killing someone else's loved ones and filling them with malice. It's an irony in a self-fulfilling prophecy form, fearing Ark's creation, but played a part in creating another one.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Wanting to murder someone in order to get revenge is always wrong! It's sort of this story's thesis statement!

Of course it's wrong. But... someone that did something wrong doesn't instantly go to villain territory. Wanting to murder someone in order to get revenge is also often used in some secondary Riders' plots, as I said, and none of them are baddies (except Kusaka or Kaito at the end of series). Their needs to, for example, get revenge are their corrupting traits that should be addressed, but they're still good guys albeit morally grey (anti-heroes), that fought alongside the other good guys but can clash with them for their wrong traits.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I'm not sure I like this story better than Gai's? Horobi's depression and derangement has already had more severe costs than Gai's, so I'm not super inclined to feel pity for the guy. I'd love for him to find some self-awareness and regret for his actions, like Gai (well, regret anyway), but until that happens I'm not gonna be real He's Been Through A Lot about our homicidal/genocidal purple Rider.

Actually, Horobi's derangement is also a part of Gai's costs in his actions. Gai corrupting Ark, would have Horobi being hacked by said Ark and form MetsubouJinrai.net, and after Horobi broke free from Ark's control, still not immediately changed his worldview, the influence of Ark and the events that happened before remains.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER ZERO-ONE EPISODE 44 - “THERE’S ONLY ONE PERSON WHO CAN STOP YOU…”

Mostly, though, it’s a story about how Hatred and Hope are each others’ antithesis, and how one can only exist in the other’s absence. Aruto spent a year fixing his friends (and some foes), helping them see the pointlessness of anger and hatred and intolerance and bigotry. His work let them dream of better futures, and hope for a better world. They can be the force for good that Aruto used to be. It’s a role Aruto can’t take on, because he’s chosen hatred instead of hope. He’s given himself over to anger and self-deception, defined himself as someone who wants to destroy someone else, and left himself no room to hold onto a dream. He can’t leap towards a dream when he’s rooted by hatred.

There can be a difference between hatred and anger, Aruto was angry at Jin before his first death for using his "friends" as henchmen, that's righteous anger but still would be anger too. I also do like this direction of displaying societal problems (you're ok with the focus on nameless characters like AIMS/Humagear armies?), and this also adds up complexity on even the personal problems Aruto had (still rooted from idiocy though like Izu negotiating alone or Ark-Zero...), now Aruto can't exactly brutalize Horobi for good outcome. He may defeat and kill Horobi for good (albeit not as easy as before), but now it'd only a "proof" for Humagears that humans are their enemies via Horobi's murder. Horobi by himself isn't really a threat to Aruto, but I'd admit here his legacy is. Like Gai's good public image before. Though as you said, Aruto's legacy (in his influenced friends) also combats Horobi's potential legacy, so Aruto's previous selflessness wasn't for naught.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Because it’s kind of the entire point this show’s trying to make about people, you know? It’s that we’re constantly divided by things, despite being so fundamentally the same that it’s ridiculous to hate one another. The humans and Humagears have different origins, but they both want to be free and safe, while fearing that someone might prevent that. We all just, deep down, want to know that we’re safe to be ourselves. That’s it. The loss of that, or the denial of that, is what makes us turn on each other. The ways we hate each other is one of the most common things about people, just like how Aruto and Horobi’s rage and shame are identical. Being able to see the same dream in one another might be the answer to so much pain.

President Williamson here displays the kind of leadership/authority that is often deemed as competent, having cold-hearted, pragmatic, and unsentimental traits, to 'help' making tough decisions, quell hesitations, and be 'professional'. Added with how leaders can be put on pedestal, those cold-detached traits can be also encouraged in general (and dismissing leaders who aren't like that), and that anything a leader do can be excused as their job to give orders and call the shots, and those who defy them can be the ones seen at unfaithful, rebellious, etc. But sometimes, leaders can just be close-minded control freaks who impose their feelings on anyone around and not giving thought about their opinions. And in this case, those cold traits are what'd doom people, not helping.

Williamson is in the wrong here regarding his leadership traits, and this shows that what matters more isn't winning a war, but how to prevent a war. Kindness can be detrimental on battlefield, but bloodshed is better avoided altogether (if the goal is to ensure safety, rather than actually evil warmongers wanting to prove superiority or such, Williamson does want to protect people) and kindness would accomplish that better. Which Yua demonstrated here. Yua was also someone who is previously cold, aloof, and ruthless, and was more open and relaxed after leaving Gai, and gaining more compassion here is what solved the problem here. Beating someone senseless, or forcing them into submission may keep you safe, but it will only fuel the racial tension which is the root of the war, as it just proves their suspicion of humans. Empathy has more chance of reducing racial tension as other than making it easier for them, it also defies negative expectations, including not immediately retaliating with force the part it seemed to fail. Though Yua's approach is risky like Izu's to Horobi, there should be more protection gears even if she doesn't intend to retaliate with force. Fortunately, Williamson is reasonable enough to see the error of his ways.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I sometimes forget to talk about these shows on that level, but, HOLY SHIT. The fight between Aruto and Fuwa was beautiful and heartbreaking, as Aruto grew more and more enraged at Fuwa’s attempts to stop him. We got a little of last episode’s silent dismissal, until Fuwa’s emotional attacks started making contact. Then, Aruto just started pummeling him. It’s hard to watch, because the fight isn’t tokusatsu action, really; it’s a beating. Fuwa’s two-headed wolf form (so great to have Naki back in the plot) is janky and almost inoperable from the start. He can’t hope to stop Aruto, but Fuwa can at least weather enough punishment to maybe talk some sense into him. It doesn’t work, because Aruto can’t let go of his mix of denial (none of this is his fault, he just needs to defeat Horobi) and depression (it doesn’t matter if he’s hated, it doesn’t matter if he hurts his friends). It’s the saddest fight Aruto ever won.

The problem is more complex, but as this episode title already suggested, there's only one person who can stop Horobi... Aruto. Aruto's the one that has the most superior equipment before, both in Zero-Two Driver and Ark-One Driver, and now Horobi's the one that get better equipment. This being a beating is completely expected, OrthrosVulcan (what he used here) is not even as powerful as RampageVulcan (final form). Other than that Fuwa actually had poor approach in trying to restrain Aruto. He should've explained the current state of things to Aruto, instead of telling him not to fight Horobi with vague reasons. He also didn't empathize with him over Izu's death at all, and when it failed, he attacks Aruto. Other than that, it seems to not cross Fuwa's mind that Horobi's still out there. After talking down Aruto, does he have any other solution in mind to stop Horobi? He knew that there's an upcoming war, but Fuwa had quite poor judgment of things there, hopefully in character if the consequence is Fuwa being brutally beaten up for this.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

My favorite scene from this episode is close to the start, where Jin interrogates Horobi's belief, as they stand with the clotheslines between them. It's pretty rare for KR to have the final villain murder the female lead and then depict the villain as someone to pity rather than hate. While I mourn Izu's loss with everybody else, I can't bring myself to hate Horobi for killing her, cause deep down, he's already hating himself enough. He's refusing to listen to his heart (like Onari always advised) cause he doesn't want to feel even more suffering and he'd rather keep going with his misguided genocide than admit to himself the painful truth that he did something terrible he can never take back. It's a different spin on Gai's arc and just as tragic and it makes Horobi one of the most complex villains in KR.

I'd agree with Horobi's complexity, though his character journey starts really late in the series, and that he had tragic aspects like being enslaved by Ark for 12 years, but claiming to depict a villain as something to hate/pity/etc. is still subjective. Actually, villains are often the most well-liked characters, regardless of how depraved (actually, KR's one of the franchises where I've actually seen widespread hate for someone depraved like Micchy or Gai-pre ep. 38), because they are seen as cool, charismatic, plot-movers, or sufficient power fantasy (not only being strong, but also be wild and free with those), o̶r̶ ̶b̶e̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶s̶e̶x̶y̶ ̶l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶A̶z̶u̶ ̶(̶H̶o̶r̶o̶b̶i̶'̶s̶ ̶a̶l̶s̶o̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶a̶b̶l̶y̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶-̶l̶o̶o̶k̶i̶n̶g̶,̶ ̶a̶c̶k̶n̶o̶w̶l̶e̶d̶g̶e̶d̶ ̶a̶m̶o̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶Z̶e̶r̶o̶-̶O̶n̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶)̶. So yeah... how much hate someone get doesn't determine their heinousness (G̶a̶i̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶i̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶-̶e̶p̶.̶ ̶3̶8̶). Annoying characters are those that tend to be hated the most, and heroes too can be viewed in lower regard to the villains (annoying also heavily depends, like even being boring or 'weak' can also count). If there'd be a dislike for Horobi, it'd more because of him being dull and wooden, instead of his actions.

I can enjoy him as a villain more (at least more than Die), but personally I too don't think he deserves pity at this point, and people like him are the ones who should be condemned for hypocrisy, instead of mostly clean heroes that rubbed the wrong way in certain aspects (with that being deemed as 'hypocrisy'). Complexity fleshes out a character and makes them better written, but that shouldn't affect their overall heinousness (characters of any morality can be complex). I'd think him not listening to his heart and hating himself for having it is part of his misantrophy of refusing to become like humans and adds into his complexity, but that's the very thing that escalated his villainy further (pointing this out got Izu killed), or feeding his inculpability to hypocritically shift the blame to anyone else. Horobi (or MetsubouJinrai.net under Ark before, he's the leader) very much resembles real life cults, and cult leaders in podcasts also come up with all sorts of justifications for immoral actions.

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Originally Posted by Enchilada645

It was a good episode for the side characters, you get to see Raiden almost get through to Horobi, you get to see Fuwa and Naki try and get through to Aruto, Yua steps up, Gai even helps out a little bit. This is really their episode to shine while two characters are just steeped in hatred. I wouldn't even call Aruto and Horobi straight up villains at this point. They're basically two people consumed with grief and hatred who only want to hurt each other despite the fact that their feud could very well shake the world to it's core. So at best their antagonists.

Role has no relation to morality. Protagonist only means main character, and antagonist only means their oppositions. Aruto's still alive and kicking without diminishing role, he's still the main protagonist, regardless of his current morality state. Horobi's the one that has biggest animosity towards Aruto, thus he's the central antagonist (again) at this point. Other than that anyway, why would being consumed by grief and hatred negate someone's villainy (especially Horobi's)? It's just an explanation on how they ended up this way, but otherwise Horobi still wanted to exterminate humanity, as well as any Humagears who got "corrupted" by them (as in, not like-minded with him). He also sends Humagears to their potential death for his cause. He's a threat to both humanity and good number of Humagears, while deflecting any blames placed on him which'd make him harder to convince for now. That's villainy.