[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

KAMEN RIDER SABER EPISODE 16 - ?SAVING THE WORLD, THE RAY OF LIGHT?

It?s an interesting way the show chooses to explore this question; namely, by having this close group of friends IMMEDIATELY fracture and fight at the first whiff of dissension and/or betrayal. Kamijo only yesterday suggested to Touma that the Sword of Logos is up to no good and that Touma might have to choose between honoring his promise and siding with his friends, so here?s Reika to turn everyone against each other to draw out Yuri. It?s a plot that, in typical Saber fashion, eschews a slow burn of character-motivated paranoia and natural workplace incompatibility by just having Reika take control of the Northern Base, whisper lies into everyone?s ears, and then wait for the sparks to fly.

IIRC people already do but still I hope here Reika's stunt here would get her actually viewed as villainous at worst by people, instead of being viewed as something empowering or competent like Yua at the start (before the reveal of her being at cohorts with ZAIA). And actually, Kamijo's words quickly had already displayed some truth here in at least Reika herself here.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

There is some actual character-based conflict, though, which is why this episode worked for me. While Reika pushes everyone into a standoff, things only get really bad when Touma suggests that the guy who murdered Kento and conspired with despotic fiction monsters might have a point. It?s the sort of empathetic A Broken Clock Is Right Twice A Day argument that lands easily with a fellow SoL outsider like Mei, where both she and Touma can telescope out Handling Kento to a point where he?d?ve likely become Kamijo, therefore finding some possible humanity within Kamijo. But it?s got about zero traction with the soldiers who?ve been risking their lives to defend multiple worlds from Kamijo?s nihilistic zealotry, and the people who loved Kento the most. It?s a neat escalation throughout the argument, because a lot of it just comes down to both sides not being willing to hear the other out. Touma?s goal of ferreting out a traitor was always going to piss off his coworkers, and his inability to appeal to their sense of justice dooms this friendship to failure. Reika might?ve lit the fuse, but this bomb was already there.

For Rintaro, I mentioned his behavior to Kento in ep. 11, other than at the end, as his negative trait, and you didn't believe it for obvious reasons, but it was a buildup for his behavior here, of him having a blind loyalty towards Sword of Logos and his duty-bound approach would also mean he'd jump into blaming Touma over Sword of Logos mainstays. And for Ren (the one who is anti-heroic among the current Rider group), obviously he's a shit-stirrer and would have no qualms starting a fight with Touma especially over something Kento-related. I'd think Ogami and Daishinji's turn against Touma was something that happened too quick though, or at least, again for me, suffers in lack of what's shown during Hayato or Kamijo's time with them (if they'd emphasize the past betrayal moments as the reason), like what was them as a person like when they're together with those 2 and was them strikingly similar to Touma, or that they're just starting conflict for the sake of it. But this seems overlooked here as characters starting shit seems to be your type but I hope it's still acknowledged as just one's preference instead of the only way for writing good stories.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

Not that this is, like, the smoothest episode around. We?re in a transitional space, where we?re getting some restated background on Touma?s overall goals (Luna, traitor) as well as the Book Club?s revised plan of attack. (I really love the little fortnightly Kamen Rider stories where someone gets turned into a monster and the Riders have to find some way to liberate the victim, so this is already more interesting to me than a random Megid showing up in a plaza.) There?s a lot of side-stories filling out this already-packed episode of heroes battling heroes, which doesn?t do the components a ton of favors. There?s a lot of ground to cover on the Touma section of this episode alone, leaving the book victim stuff to feel slightly irrelevant at the present. It?s not a distraction, exactly, but it doesn?t add anything to the main story.

Mei here seems to have a different approach against Touma other than trying to shield him at the end, of which instead of just being pushy to get him to work, which is likely to be expected after what Yuki said about the manuscript's deadline, but now she asks about his concerns, and Sword of Logos-related. Like questioning if Kamijo is someone that can be trusted in his words, which, yeah, sometimes villains just can have a point, doesn't mean it liberates them from the wrongdoings in their actions, if there's someone that can come up with a less ruthless plan like Touma. Also similar to how in W Akiko later is more open to Shotaro's input instead of asserting her chief position (+slipper whack). This'd also actually shows how Mei got more integrated into Sword of Logos circle. Though Mei's still shallow in how she deems a guy as weird.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Die

I was pleasantly surprised by how much this episode came together for me. When Kamijo?s warning took about eight seconds to make Touma an outcast from his friends, hunted as a traitor, I was like That Was Fast. But then the show pulled back the reins a bit, and let the characters? lingering resentments and lack of shared history pit the Sword of Logos against Touma and Mei (and debuting swordsman/sword-man Yuri) in a way that feels inevitable. It?s an episode that starts exploring something I find fascinating, which is how we imbue organizations with power and personality due to the people within them, but then forget that said power and personality is only there because of those people. Touma and the other swordsmen see the Sword of Logos as something worth protecting or destroying, but it?s really just a collection of people. We lose sight of that to our peril, which is what everyone discovered this episode.

Yeah, here's the character who is seemingly the most loved by fanbase for Saber, Yuri. Other than his debut showing off his power to fend off all the 4 Riders at once, it also has funny factor in how he literally henshins into a sword and had it just flying to decimate all 4. His behavior is also no less of that to be ecstatic in meeting Touma instead and missing his stare.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Anyway, I do think Oma Zi-O and Gai would fit the antivillain label though, albeit on the extreme side.

You're mistaken here regarding anti-villain label. Extreme anti-villains are those who have very little or limited amount of bad traits/moments, edging them closer to outright hero antagonist (if they're antagonistic ofc). Reminder that the 'anti-' part of anti-villain refers to the redeeming qualities which makes them less bad and the more extreme they're the less bad they're.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Oma Zi-O considered himself to have succeeded in becoming the greatest kindest demon king even after murdering half the planet and he's definitely not dependent on publicity since everyone hates him and even his IWAE man is secretly in cahoots with Quartzer to usurp him. Zi-O VS Decade also implies that overuse of his powers to create and destroy worlds turned Sougo insane, so his sense of morality is no longer in check with reality.

I think that there are so many utterly depraved villains in fiction who are described/depicted as being outright insane (also creates the stereotype in how insane equals violent), like Banno in Drive, that insanity feels like one of the main roots behind their villainy, instead of a justification (also no for 'mental illness as excuse for poor behavior'). And it's true that Ohma Zi-O is deluded in thinking he became greatest kindest demon king, but that only serves to drive his villainy even worse by committing and escalating worse and worse actions without signs of stopping, opposite of acting as a redeeming trait.

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Gai is a narcissist, whose delusions of moral perfection are enabled by the validation he receives from society and the formative childhood trauma that pushed him to be 1000%. When revealing his involvement in Ark's corruption, he's totally oblivious to his culpability, instead citing humanity's malice for making Ark inclined towards genocide. Gai believes he merely provided an education and insists that Ark's conclusions from that are its own. Notice how it's only when his publicity is threatened that he's forced to evaluate his morality, where he realizes that he's actually a terrible person.

To play along with him reforming, there can be a cases too where straight villains got redeemed, their atrocities before shouldn't be downplayed including as anti-villain. And as you said here, Gai is a narcissist, and like above, it's also a mental illness (personality disorder), and say no for 'mental illness as excuse for poor behavior'.