[DreadBringer]

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Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I believe Keiwa when he tells Michinaga, "I haven't changed". This evil trait didn't manifest externally, it's a subtle behavior that's been dormant inside Keiwa all this time and Sara's tragic death caused it to surface. While many people were mistaking Keiwa as "Kagami 2.0.", I called it from the first episode that there was something wrong with this dude.

Man I wonder what'd be other people's reaction regarding this, that you use Neon as a point of comparison for Keiwa's repressed cynicism and zealousness here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

I think the most deceptive thing about Keiwa is that he loves to talk about noble concepts like world peace, justice and respect, except there's always a layer of cynicism and self-entitlement. He wants these things cause he's sick and tired of all the bad people in the world screwing things up. While a conventional hero does good deeds without expectation of reward, Keiwa does good deeds and hides his bitterness towards others for not doing the same. Some people may be surprised to see their "Tycoon with a bleeding heart" suddenly doing evil stuff like selling out Tsumuri to Jit, but for me, this is consistent with my observations of the sinister subtext about him. Keiwa is a hypocrite and what could be more hypocritical than him sacrificing Ace's big sister to get back his own big sister? Even without Sara's tragic death, I imagine he would've snapped eventually anyway.

Man, this description is actually personally relatable. Otherwise, about people being surprised of Keiwa resorting to this, dunno if people, those who want to watch Kamen Rider for the spirit of heroism (l̶i̶k̶e̶ ̶K̶e̶k̶e̶r̶a̶), may just be disappointed of how the only character they see fit for this, Keiwa, also becomes sinister like others, making the series too much for them to bear (like your problem for series like Gaim). And if he would've eventually snapped without relating to Sara, guess some people'd insist he'd not have turned out this way if others don't "dismiss" or "mistreat" him or such, so only putting the blame in others to turn Keiwa like this (this can already happen in even pure evil characters when they had tragic backstory) and get the "karma" of Keiwa giving them the taste of their own medicine if he doesn't choose to be "nice" (which is what I fear honestly, to perpetuate the view of kindness is weakness and cruelty is strength, when he has a new form to succeed).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

Geats' intervention does seem kind of weird. Like, him destroying the innocent studying Jyamato in Episode 17 was okay, but Tycoon isn't allowed to destroy the dangerous Jyama-Daichi, only cause he's doing it for the wrong reasons? Where does Ace draw the line?

Honestly don't really know IMO if that studying Jamato is actually innocent (can be a meme) or just happens to not attacking others at that time, but if he's not studying he'd do the same to humans.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

In fact, he continues to be the same idealist hero, only already on the path of revenge, which implies great cruelty. So I really hope it doesn't come down to, "Too much power drove him crazy."

You aren't a hero simply by having good intentions. As you said there, there's cruelty in the path of revenge, "same" idealist hero has little to no cruelty - more important than having good intentions. He's currently a well-intentioned extremist anti-villain, doing the same thing as Suel did - kidnapping Tsumuri, turning her into a Goddess against her will, potentially kickstarting another DGP, to achieve his wish. Albeit ofc, he'd be a straight hero previously, but alignment change happens that now he's an anti-villain, but as his redemption would be expected, he'd be 'temporarily' turning anti-villainous. Though otherwise I don't like the view "too much power corrupts/drove him crazy", as it implies only powerful people can be vile and cruel, and that weak people are inherently good and innocent, when they're possibly only harmless, but can be as vile in their mind just doesn't have the means to act on their ideals.

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Originally Posted by JusticeMagnum

I can agree with this, but I think the reason why some people I've seen online are so split on the this direction with Keiwa's character is because it's a bit too subtle, like if we actively saw Keiwa slowly getting more frustrated visually & overtly over the course of the series I think it would flow much more naturally for people. Like you said, I do think the pieces are all there and how we got here does make sense if you stop to think about, but I think a little less subtlety might've helped a bit here.

Feels that perhaps there are those moments before, but can be overlooked because feels that people can be in denial of the idea of Keiwa being wrong in anything, and just shifts the blame to anyone else who they demonize for "not being like Keiwa" (those who can only stand Keiwa in this series). The ep. 8 scene was really Keiwa being in the wrong and selfish (self-righteous), not others being selfish and wrong to "leave others to die for the sake of their wish". Firstly, others would still fight the boss, thus it'd be saving people in the process, just that they don't want to be only baits for others (which was what Keiwa suggested), and Ace questioned him if he'd care about the world if he and Sara can be safe and happy, of which Keiwa had no response, his priority was about keeping Sara alive, and as shown here, his priority is keeping Sara alive and it'd be meaningless to him to strive for world peace if Sara is gone - thus it'd be ok for him to throw the game here as long as she's still alive. Guess what happens before was that, anytime Sara is in danger, it brought the worst of him, to desperately keeping Sara's safety, he dismisses others' wishes to have them become mere baits to guarantee that, and I guess him brutally beating up the Jamato who carried pineapple bomb (though it's a deserving target, being brutal isn't virtuous), and some people do think of his darkness when he "borrowed" Sae's Zombie. People are more annoyed about this, but he had blamed Mitsume since ep. 31, dismissing others' explanations regarding this.