[Sh Ranger]

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

So I didn't say anything about whether it was heroic or not. Basically, it depends on the circumstances. In the case of Ace, it is unlikely, because he had about 40 more mothers and he was looking for Mitsume for the sake of answers. I simply replied that he didn't do it, which I think we can both agree on.

Yeah, I agree that in his search for Mitsume, Ace has neglected his many other families and that's something I'd like to see him address.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

No. But if they can't achieve that without DGP, then yes. One needlessly famous Ace is enough from the world, so it's not worth making people love mediocre music. Well, I think I already wrote about the fact that love should be born from the desires of two.

I imagine DGP could grant Neon's desire for true love by creating artificial parents for the artificial daughter, but at this point, I think they've already indirectly granted her desire by giving her the opportunity to meet Ace and Sara, except Neon hasn't realized it yet. Regarding Win's desire, DGP could also just make him more talented, like how Sae wanted an athletic body that never deteriorates with age. Of course, with the reveal of DGP's exploitation, it can no longer be justified and the Riders should try and do it on their own, while guys like Daichi who cling to otherwise impossible desires are forced to resort to unethical means.

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Originally Posted by Mesnick

Don't forget about Shimada!

For sure, Ryuki actually has several morally good characters if you look beyond the Riders. There's also Reiko, Okubo and Gorou.

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Originally Posted by PortalTron

Excuse me, what? That literally is the criteria for being a hero, and more importantly, what being a Rider is all about.

Hongo wanted a normal life and to continue university/participate in bike racing, but had to put others first when he became a Rider. Literally every Rider series is about the main hero putting their desires aside for others. I would even go so far as to say that every Rider series to date (although Geats' is debatable, but the show isn't finished yet so it doesn't really count), has had a pivotal moment in which the Rider has to set aside their personal wants in order to achieve what objectively needed to be done.

The criteria for being a hero is much simpler than that. I would define a hero as someone who fights to preserve good while staying true to their principles. The belief that sacrifice = heroism can be taken too far, like Tojo trying to kill Yui to seal Mirror World and killing his allies so he won't become dependent on them. Sacrifice is sometimes a side effect of heroism, but it's something regrettable for that person, or for the loved ones they fail to save, not to be celebrated as a heroic outcome.

Even in the Showa Era, there are examples of protagonists becoming Riders for their own sake. Shirou asked Hongo and Ichimonji to make him a Remodified Human so he could get revenge on Scissors Jaguar for killing his family. Jo tricked Black Satan in to making him a Remodified Human so he could get revenge on them for killing his brother. They fight for humanity as well, but it was still their personal desires that set them on the lonely yet heroic path of Kamen Rider.

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Originally Posted by ShiShiLeo

I think what sets Kamen Rider apart from other super heroes is the acknowledgement that the ideology of "Heroism" and "Justice" can be corrupted and misappropriated for evil. In the height of WWII, every participating country had their heroes, but it wasn't until it ended that those same heroes were now war criminals on the basis of having lost the war. You win the war, you become the heroes through control of the narrative.

Reminds me of Arkland's weaponization of "justice" in Zero One 01hers (which, on topic of controversial opinions, I consider good movies) to demoralize the formerly evil Metsuboujinrai and deter them from opposing him. While the Ark faction's appeal is limited only to the minority of people who identify as evil or are beyond caring about morality, justice is a universal good value, except the misunderstanding is that justice itself is universal, when it's actually individual. When someone talks about justice, it's not necessarily the same as justice to you or I. For Lawful Evil types, justice is merely evil under a name with better publicity and they will exploit it as much as they can.