[DreadBringer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

Exactly. He's always had these characteristics from the beginning, but people seem to just brush them aside in order to make him this super clean good guy, when Keiwa has always been an example of how good people aren't always perfect, and can and do have more selfish sides to them as well. And to call out his "change" as being forced is sort of missing the point because yes, it is being forced. By Kekera. Who has been clearly manipulating Keiwa into becoming the sort of Kamen Rider that he likes.

I'm only bringing this up to counter against the view of how all Riders are bad (of which it does happen here shortly after), and don't like the fanaticism view to Keiwa here to think good or bad is decided if you're on the same page of Keiwa or not, which also got Kekera, before his true colors are shown, praised for supporting him thus "the one who appreciates goodness". But overall, being good isn't perfect by itself, flaws aren't only doing bad things like selfish side/moments, his naivety or gullible nature is his flaw, but ofc many seem to treat that as a part of goodness instead of a flaw one should work around (thinking that not being naive means not being good anymore). Also while every Riders aren't morally perfect, don't like that other Riders showing that are given different reaction - more demonized like with Neon desperately performing her last DezaStar mission being used to frame her as a piece of shit like others, even though it's forced and had high stakes (anything it takes to make her commit that, as she usually hates throwing others under the bus).

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

In Lamentation, it's... basically something every round. First round, he gets put out of commission, leaving Ace to save the day and get Boost MKII. Second round... nothing that I can remember, actually. Third round, Keiwa does well only to get sneak attacked by the Dunkleosteus Jyamato and loses his fight. Final round, we all know what happens there. This is basically the arc where Keiwa suffers the most.

In Yearning, it's his quite literal powerlessness to beat an invincible Jyamashin!Michinaga who keeps ragging on him for his beliefs, as well as seeing him beat his sister who got dragged into the DGP/DR again and forcibly retired against her will (which is a fair thing to worry about, considering how we've seen people's personalities change after their desires get removed, so who knows what could've happened to her). And then the Grand End takes his memories and Desire Driver, leaving him powerless again.

You're basically describing the exact examples of how he fares being left out with Ninja here....

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKDremare

It always ends up like this. People talk up the Riders they like more and talking down on the ones they disagree with, and always disregarding the flaws in their favorite Rider and the strengths with the Rider they disagree with.

This one doesn't feel like people's personal taste though that, even those who like good people also don't think they're strong or badass. This just feels like the stereotype belief people holds that is widespread, regardless of liking or hating them. Well in general it's common that the heroes are bashed for their weakness if they had failure, but if villain has failure, the complaint goes to the writing instead for giving them the short end of the stick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

It does not have the light that was in Ryuki, Fayze, Gaim, and even the Amazons. There is no one who will show that the world can be better. Even if it fails. Does not lie those who die quickly, Tsurumi, Iruma and Archimedel.

You have it for Geats, Sh Ranger has it for Gaim, Kurona (and MKDremare) has it for Faiz, etc. it seems to be just varying personal preference to deem certain shows as too unbearable. Also there can be some criterias of considering a show to have no light, it can be also about if those unyielding good characters are made purposely ineffectual and useless, as if purposely being a satire and/or deconstruction, like being idiot losers whose belief is seen as a joke, crushing their ideals in the face of cruel reality, etc. which someone like Keitaro can feel like that. It'd be my problem for not series-specific, but kinda franchise wide for KR, tbh, like many medias to make good being pathetic underdogs, it can look unappealing for people to discourage it instead due to it being depicted badly.... but my enjoyment would be much more limited if it only revolves around this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

You'd have a point if there hadn't been 30 odd episodes of character development since then of Ace learning he can have faith in Keiwa and Neon (and even, to a lesser extent, Michinaga) and of him turning from a relentless hunt for his mother into someone who is trying to make the world a better place. Michinaga and Keiwa literally signed up to be Riders again not for a prize, but to protect people frm the remaining Jyamato.

Ace now wanting to make a world where everyone is happy doesn't mean that he wasn't genuine in helping others before though, don't want for him wanting to meet his mother to be shat on only because he's not using his wish like Keiwa or such, because there's nothing wrong for someone to want things for themselves. Ace's problem was that he can be ruthless like his strategies on the first DGP, but his help to others is genuine, it doesn't need to have the main goal of making everyone happy for that.

The Keiwa and Michinaga part though, I wouldn't want for Michinaga to be lumped as genuinely wanting to help too (even though he has good intentions), maybe at least at that time. I think both at that time showcases the difference between protect vs destroy. Keiwa knows that the threat is still around and he should prevent the present people getting hurt or other kind of damages. While Michinaga has been established as someone who hates anything related to DGP, including the Riders, thus his reason to join is to clean up the DGP's remains in Beroba and the Jamatos, currently Michinaga's main target is the deserving one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AkibaSilver

I disagree that just because no-one on the show is some idealised hero, it somehoe lacks some intangible ill-defined "light" that means it's evil? The characters are flawed, yes, but they're not cackling villains. They're realistic, they fight for their own goals, and most of their issues come from the fact that they're often risking their lives for a future game show Squid Game style, and that's gonna fuck you up. Keiwa becoming a grief-stricken murderer? Damn, wonder why the kid who's done nothing but lose people fromhis very first DGP outing and constantly feels outclassed by everyone else might have a depressive episode from that.

Though people like Yuusuke would count, by technicality, some other morally upright main Riders like Shinji or Ryotaro, also isn't an idealized hero, tbh, because they suffers from flaws and weakness that can hinder them, which are something they have to conquer. But speaking about moral strictly, as weaknesses aside they're equally upright, well those are straight heroes, and Geats still has that too.

And as you bring up Squid Game there, I also gotta say that, someone like Ali is also morally white (approved as pure good too) - it is possible for a morally white person to unwillingly go against his beliefs and doing something wrong due to certain circumstances, like having limits when it comes to certain enemy like Ali punishing his boss. But yeah, one single/few wrongdoings won't make those kind of people morally grey, and oftentimes, a morally white character will be filled with remorse when they failed to adhere to their moral principles (this is also still used as a praise for their moral standings). Guess want to state that it's not only lighthearted shows that can have straight heroes, of which perhaps their can be overlooked in those shows only because no hard consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mesnick

Because I would not want to have such people in real life. Because bad things happen and a person must be able to remain good in spite of them.

Having a black and white view to immediately brand people as piece of shits for showing human error is a harsh appraisal, and not being good either. The kind of people who have this mindset are depicted as well-intentioned extremist villains in the fiction, such as Stain from MHA, if you'd think that the heroes that don't live up to your expectations (for even small things that feel wrong to you) can be lumped with actual bad people and deserve to be eliminated or purged (I mean if you think that those who "tolerate" them are being "too nice")... I kinda thought at first Kekera would be this kind of villain, if he's made bad, but actually it's a different one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin Henshin

Even Michinaga is a good person, but he's prideful to a fault.

No just because someone has good intentions, it doesn't make them a good person. Actions first before characterization (though they also). Since joining the Jamatos, he has been doing whatever it takes, without caring much about the victims, only caring about the ends ("for the greater good") or at best, statistics ("the many") - that'd be a bad guy, well-intentioned extremist kind, many are like that in media, and other than that he was limited to showing some little standards. While it's not 100% evil, that'd fit anti-villain at best. He may be on the path for change now but below...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin Henshin

They all show traits proving that while flawed, they're not evil or inherently bad. They're driven by their own personal lives and molded by their supporters in most cases. Beroba drives Michinaga to be more merciless because she loves suffering. Kekera drives Keiwa to be more vengeful because his ideal Kamen Rider isn't a white knight kind of person. Ziin drives Ace to be the protagonist who always wins because he doesn't want to see his fave lose. And Kyuun does what he can to drive Neon to be true to herself because he'd rather have her live happily than as someone she's not.

People's alignment can change, so someone having some good traits shouldn't be necessarily considered a good person overall, they won't be good unless they act on it, and if they keep it while being bad it'd be still only redeeming traits. While Keiwa was straight up good before, now he had heel turn, so regardless of what he did before, he is currently a bad guy (not 100% bad obviously), but he'd be turn good again if he had his redemption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sh Ranger

What's so heroic about giving up something you care about for the sake of others? If Ace wants to create a world where everybody can be happy, then of course "everybody" would include Ace himself. Should Neon give up her desire for true love, or Win give up his desire to become a famous rockstar? We can see the result of people giving up their desires in their post-Retired states and there's nothing right about that. The power to change the world is fueled by Kirakira, the determination of each person to pursue their desires. Geats IX is only strong due to Ace's selfishness and that's what makes him a hero.

From here, they seems to be the type who measure heroism by how much suffering they get, as it seems that they have the belief of humans being fundamentally good, but it's used to downplay the good deeds if it doesn't torture themselves and make heroes stand out (yeah it often happens to make heroes stand out, and some did it to the point of dehumanizing them).