[Kamen Rider Lucha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFightingSpirit

Why would Valhalla cause him to work for Takatora? What's so bad about an enternal feast? The armoured riders are basically fighting to create the Zawame city they think they want. So Micchi seeing it destroyed makes more sense to me.

But if they knew that a decimated future was the result of Riders fighting to create their ideal city... Why in the world would they give out Lock Seeds and Drivers that create Riders? Wouldn't their goal have been to stop Riders from ever existing in order to avoid that destruction?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Den-O

I mean I see the Norse influence, it's pretty overtly there. But Micchy wouldn't have been moved in such a way by just seeing some perfect version of the city. He saw the post apocalypse if you ask me. Takatora wants his help to keep Zawame from being overrun by Helheim in the future.

I'm still of the opinion that Helheim is the future of Zawame and the two, Past & Present, are getting closer and closer. The whole point of the rider project is to equip warriors with the necessary power to fight the Invess of the future. We know for a fact that being bonded to a belt or specifically wearing one keeps your desire for the fruits of Helheim at zero. Hasse was tempted and succumbed to it after his belt was destroyed. Takatora is preparing to save the city from it's own future.

That's my speculation. They want to fight the future, fight the nature of the forest. The forest is probably looking to choose an avatar to help it tople Zawame in the past. I think Mai's blond counterpart is that avatar.

I'm mostly with you, but I still have a nagging thought that the writers want us to think it's the future of Zawame City, and the reveal will be something left field.

Again, why would they give out Drivers and Lock Seeds if their goal was to stop the destruction caused by Riders? And why would Takatora be encouraging fighting between the Riders if he knows it only leads to Zawame City's destruction?

[TheFightingSpirit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

But if they knew that a decimated future was the result of Riders fighting to create their ideal city... Why in the world would they give out Lock Seeds and Drivers that create Riders? Wouldn't their goal have been to stop Riders from ever existing in order to avoid that destruction?

Nah, they'd want to create better, well trained Riders to try and prevent it. The Beat Riders are, as they keep saying, guinea pigs.

I see what you're saying, I do. If Sengoku worked in absolute secrecy and everyone and their mother was trying to stop him from creating better seeds and drivers then I'd be with you one hundred percent, but little I've seen suggests otherwise

That's not to say however that riders won't turn out to be the problem.

If we've learned anything from this program its that practically every character going is flawed in some way. No one has perfect twenty-twenty hindsight or logic. The simple fact that Sengoku did come up with the driver and invess game stuff and absolutely no one on the inside has questioned that logic yet (including Micchi it seems) suggests to me that they believe it's the obvious solution to what ever the problem actually is.

His reaction was rather extreme.

[xSkullheartx]

I think it was a destroyed city,but due to the Forest growing out of control. Yggdrasil made the drivers,right? Maybe they made them to stop the forests growth. Maybe they know that the forest will overgrow and devour the city,which is why they are trying to stop it.

The reason the Beat Riders exist is because of exactly what Ryouma said,they're test subjects,but because the "bad guy" said it,right away the audience is led to think that it's a bad thing.Maybe being the test subject is a good thing.Maybe Yggdrasil is mass producing the belts so everyone has a way to defend themselves,and they don't want the Beat Riders to have the belts because they don't want teenagers getting hurt.

[TheFightingSpirit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xSkullheartx

I think it was a destroyed city,but due to the Forest growing out of control. Yggdrasil made the drivers,right? Maybe they made them to stop the forests growth. Maybe they know that the forest will overgrow and devour the city,which is why they are trying to stop it.

The reason the Beat Riders exist is because of exactly what Ryouma said,they're test subjects,but because the "bad guy" said it,right away the audience is led to think that it's a bad thing.Maybe being the test subject is a good thing.Maybe Yggdrasil is mass producing the belts so everyone has a way to defend themselves,and they don't want the Beat Riders to have the belts because they don't want teenagers getting hurt.

Exactly. A sort of necessary step on the path to holding back the forest. Yggdrasil have shown themselves so far to be down-the-line proponents of the "ends justify the means" school of anti-heroism.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheFightingSpirit

Exactly. A sort of necessary step on the path to holding back the forest. Yggdrasil have shown themselves so far to be down-the-line proponents of the "ends justify the means" school of anti-heroism.

Right, right.

DJ Sagara and Sid have some mysterious ties to Helheim, so they could be manipulating things as well.

Given the pace of the series so far, I bet we get some answers re: "what Micchy saw" sooner rather than later.

[TheFightingSpirit]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

Right, right.

DJ Sagara and Sid have some mysterious ties to Helheim, so they could be manipulating things as well.

Given the pace of the series so far, I bet we get some answers re: "what Micchy saw" sooner rather than later.

I'm convinced there's a Yggdrasil boss we haven't seen yet... But that aside, Sid definitely has his own plans re: helheim. Sagara? Well, I wonder if he's not just gotten fond of the beat riders... That or like I said they both answer to someone over Takatora's head (Just as possible there's a puppet master against Yggdrasil too...)

I think we really need to dive back into the sengoku era text books for some of this in fighting stuff with regards to the what he saw question.

[EitoRanger]

While I can see all the reasons for it being the future, I can't fully get behind the idea because of it's relation to the sacred tree and thus also the shrine Mai's father was a priest of.

I can't help but question why is it only through the tree that Yggdrasil can hold a permanent crack open? Personally my theory is that Helheim was an ancient Forrest/alternate dimension and Yggdrasil somehow found out about the ancient forest and reconstructed the city of Zawame just so they could get their hands on it's secrets/find out how to use it for their own gain. Which is why they took the Sacred tree, tore down the shrine, and hid the tree in their labs. But the company was blinded by their own greed(desire for knowledge, for power, etc.) that they disturbed the balance and without the summer festival at the shrine possibly helping keep the barrier strong, that lead to cracks opening up and the need to create weapons to fight the inves.

As for what I think Mitchi might of saw, either a burning crater filled with the original inhabitants of Helheim, or maybe the burning remains of another city that had an access point to Helheim like Zawame, except this one failed and was dragged into Helheim itself.

Besides wouldn't it be deliciously ironic to find out that the guys totting that 'the ends justify the means' ended up being the whole reason they need to go to such extremes to save humanity in the first place. Hard to justify that mindset when it was the very mindset that cause humanity to be in danger in the first place.

[Kiryu]

He made him watch the first super hero taisen.

[Sentai]

Quote:

Originally Posted by EitoRanger

While I can see all the reasons for it being the future, I can't fully get behind the idea because of it's relation to the sacred tree and thus also the shrine Mai's father was a priest of.

I can't help but question why is it only through the tree that Yggdrasil can hold a permanent crack open? Personally my theory is that Helheim was an ancient Forrest/alternate dimension and Yggdrasil somehow found out about the ancient forest and reconstructed the city of Zawame just so they could get their hands on it's secrets/find out how to use it for their own gain. Which is why they took the Sacred tree, tore down the shrine, and hid the tree in their labs. But the company was blinded by their own greed(desire for knowledge, for power, etc.) that they disturbed the balance and without the summer festival at the shrine possibly helping keep the barrier strong, that lead to cracks opening up and the need to create weapons to fight the inves.

As for what I think Mitchi might of saw, either a burning crater filled with the original inhabitants of Helheim, or maybe the burning remains of another city that had an access point to Helheim like Zawame, except this one failed and was dragged into Helheim itself.

Besides wouldn't it be deliciously ironic to find out that the guys totting that 'the ends justify the means' ended up being the whole reason they need to go to such extremes to save humanity in the first place. Hard to justify that mindset when it was the very mindset that cause humanity to be in danger in the first place.

^Best theory yet.

[xSkullheartx]

I don't know why,but even though the DJ helped out Kouta by giving him the attachment,I don't feel like he is a good guy.

Ryouma explained why he wants them to keep testing,and he knows they know they are mass producing the belts.

The DJ didn't,he just said he wants to see who the forest chooses.Who's to say the person the forest chooses is a good thing? Maybe once the person is chosen,it causes the destruction that Micchy saw.