[ZeoRangerV]

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Originally Posted by Dr Kain

...I just wish Toei had not played the show safe.

Except that was the complete opposite of what they did, and part of why the show failed financially.

[Dr Kain]

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Originally Posted by ZeoRangerV

Except that was the complete opposite of what they did, and part of why the show failed financially.

Nah, the show was still in a safe zone. The rangers never felt like they were ever in any real danger. Nor were the Buddyroids. It was as formulaic as you can get. Taking a risk would have had them do something like Dai, Kaku, Car, or Geki did where they broke the formula. In three of those series the situations felt like the rangers could actually die. Dai also featured an episode where they fought without transforming. Kakuranger gave us an episode with just the red ranger as the team had split up for a quest. Geki had villains that were developed just as much, if not more, than the heroes. And then there is Car, which pretty much mocked all of the rules of Toku.

[Fish Sandwich]

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Originally Posted by Dr Kain

the Buddyroids were very annoying (especially Usada),

Well geez, no wonder you found it boring if the Buddyroids were annoying to you. As far as I'm concerned they're one of the best elements of the show.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

Wow, I don't agree with any of these Gokaiger criticisms! Like, I'm stunned that they're being levied at all. It's like we watched different shows.

Well it's more like a gut feeling than some big complaint I have. I DID like everyone, but every Sentai I've seen since has a more enjoyable cast in my eyes.

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Originally Posted by Dr Kain

In three of those series the situations felt like the rangers could actually die.

Go-Busters did one better and had an episode where one of the Rangers DID die.

In general those complaints are pretty valid but I think complaining about the "stakes" of Go-Busters being low is kind of ignoring all the actual atypical elements. And all the other things that make it work so well.

[Thessair]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

Wow, I don't agree with any of these Gokaiger criticisms! Like, I'm stunned that they're being levied at all. It's like we watched different shows.

The characters and their interactions are easily the best part of Gokaiger. You've got Marvelous's cooler-than-thou roguishness, Luka's badass take-no-shit attitude, Ahim's gentle toughness, Joe's tortured stoicism, and Doc's wack-a-doo impishness. I can't think of a Sentai series with more varied, distinct characters. And the team's stubborn resistance to accept that they're an actual Sentai (they see themselves as pirates through-and-through, and certainly not heroes!) defines the show's rebellious charm -- and sets up a satisfying, team-wide character arc. In general, they may not be the most inventive characters ever, but there's never been a Sentai show with a cast like them, and that makes the show feel really fresh.

MarsHottentot, I think it's possible you'll really like the show based on your reaction to the first ep. I've watched 17 full Sentai series at this point, and I can say without a shadow of a doubt that Gokaiger is one of, if not the most, accessible and consistently engaging seasons that exists. It's the only one I've seen without a chunk of episodes that grind the pace to a screeching halt. The variety of stories allowed by interweaving all the different teams into the show's structure makes it so things never go stale. The team-swap gimmick does the same thing for action sequences -- they fight using the gimmicks and styles of the past teams, so you're never left with that oatmeal-ish, "all this action looks the same" feeling so many 50-ish episode toku shows eventually engender.

All of this, x1,000,000. I love Gokaiger, for a lot of these reasons. It had great incidental music, too. Of course, I love Go-Busters, too, so there you are.

[Matrixbeast]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

Wow, I don't agree with any of these Gokaiger criticisms! Like, I'm stunned that they're being levied at all. It's like we watched different shows.

The characters and their interactions are easily the best part of Gokaiger. You've got Marvelous's cooler-than-thou roguishness, Luka's badass take-no-shit attitude, Ahim's gentle toughness, Joe's tortured stoicism, and Doc's wack-a-doo impishness. I can't think of a Sentai series with more varied, distinct characters. And the team's stubborn resistance to accept that they're an actual Sentai (they see themselves as pirates through-and-through, and certainly not heroes!) defines the show's rebellious charm -- and sets up a satisfying, team-wide character arc. In general, they may not be the most inventive characters ever, but there's never been a Sentai show with a cast like them, and that makes the show feel really fresh.

What? Beat for beat, it's Jetman's character structure. The only difference is that Luka is a hell of a lot more relevant than Ako, and Gai is in Marvelous's place, while Ryu is in Joe's.
I'm not saying it's bad, since it works. I'm just saying that the Gokaigers don't really work as well.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

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Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

What? Beat for beat, it's Jetman's character structure. The only difference is that Luka is a hell of a lot more relevant than Ako, and Gai is in Marvelous's place, while Ryu is in Joe's.
I'm not saying it's bad, since it works. I'm just saying that the Gokaigers don't really work as well.

I hadn't thought about it that way (probably because I watched Gokaiger years before I watched Jetman and never made the connection), but you're right. Considering Jetman is my hands-down favorite Sentai, I can't help but see the similarities as a positive thing. That group structure works very well for me.

Even though Jetman is my favorite series in the franchise by a country mile, I can't say that the Jetman hero cast is better than the Gokaiger cast across the board. Gai from Jetman is awesome, but so is Marvelous from Gokaiger. Ryu is admittedly way better than Joe, but Jetman's Kaori, Ako, and Raita aren't even half as as compelling as Gokaiger's Ahim, Luka, and Doc.

And while the teams are similar, putting the Gai-like Marvelous in the role of leader changes the dynamic of the team and shifts the tone of the series as a whole, so aside from group structure, the shows are very different. Marvelous's roguishness defines the Gokai team, who come across as more rag-tag and anti-authority than the Jetman team, who in turn are a respected part of their world's military industrial complex. Marvelous & the Gokaigers have a certain degree of contempt for the status quo, while Ryu & his Jetman team fight to uphold it. After all, criminal pirates and state-sponsored soldiers are very different beasts.

Ultimately, what makes the Gokaiger hero cast interesting is the same as what makes the Jetman cast interesting: they're all designed as super flawed characters who do a lot of growing over the course of their shows. Sentai teams aren't really known for character growth. Its typical heroes (especially in the more modern series) are presented as mostly-flawless paragons of justice from the get-go, and their shortcomings (when they exist) are almost always benign. Meanwhile, characters like Marvelous, Joe, and Luka (like Ryu, Gai, Kaori, and Ako) can be straight-up jerk wads. Their redemption arcs are fodder for effective drama, and their major flaws make them more relatable than your usual sentai heroes.

When it comes to hero casts, these are two of the most interesting in the franchise because they're more human and imperfect than most. (When it comes to villain casts, Jetman blows Gokaiger out of the water -- but that's an argument for a different day.) That's why I think Gokaiger is worth watching (even though something like Jetman is ultimately better).

Obviously, YMMV.

[Matrixbeast]

My problem is the characters' personal interactivity, which is why I didn't find it worked out so well.
In Jetman, Gai clashed against Ryu because Kaori was too nice to be upfront to Gai, and he was too cool to just have a conversation. There was no real sense of interpersonal drama to make good use of the charcter types in Gokaiger.
In Gokaiger, whenever Don had a problem, Ahim (And sometimes Gai) would help, while the other 3 literally did nothing until the fight scene. In Jetman, everyone was almost always involved in the others' lives (Sans Ako, whose high school episodes really made her a bit of an island...All 3 of them), so Gai would swoop in to help Raita in his personal woes and etc

My problem with the Gokaigers is that they don't have the same flow the Jetmen do. We watch the Jetmen learn to come together, while the Gokaigers already have a status quo from the get-go.
The characters themselves are fine. Marvelous being the smarmy bastard instead of the blue or black ranger is a big chance of pace and brings something new, but when you bring the five together, alone, I just don't feel the same magic as I do for other rangers.

[Kamen Rider Lucha]

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Originally Posted by Matrixbeast

My problem with the Gokaigers is that they don't have the same flow the Jetmen do. We watch the Jetmen learn to come together, while the Gokaigers already have a status quo from the get-go.
The characters themselves are fine. Marvelous being the smarmy bastard instead of the blue or black ranger is a big chance of pace and brings something new, but when you bring the five together, alone, I just don't feel the same magic as I do for other rangers.

I hear you, and I do agree that the Jetman cast's interactions are better. After all, Jetman is a very, very special series.

But that doesn't change the fact that the Gokaiger cast is still head-and-shoulders above most other sentai teams -- the writers/producers of which seem to favor generic heroes over complex ones. Even shows I think are better than Gokaiger, like Kakuranger and Dairanger, have less interesting heroes than Gokaiger overall. Criticizing the show based on its characters feels very odd to me, especially when so many other sentai shows have such objectively worse casts.

EDIT: I want to make it clear that I don't think Gokaiger is flawless. Its villain cast, aside from Basco, is very weak, and that's a huge problem for me. But I still think Gokaiger is a top-tier Sentai show, and I think it's strange to criticize it for what is, in my eyes, one of its greatest strengths.

[Fish Sandwich]

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

Sentai teams aren't really known for character growth.

Wait they aren't?! This is news to me, but every one of the Sentai shows I've seen has had some pretty solid character growth. Gokaiger's honestly didn't come across any better than any of the shows after it, at least.

Also, *cough*Go-Busters*cough*

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Obviously, YMMV.

No kidding. Gokaiger being awesome is a fact though.

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Originally Posted by Kamen Rider Lucha

But that doesn't change the fact that the Gokaiger cast is still head-and-shoulders above most other sentai teams -- the writers/producers of which seem to favor generic heroes over complex ones.

Well I don't know, for one I wouldn't say the Gokaigers were particularly complex, but they are fairly unique, especially Marvelous for being the leader, which, as you pointed out, changes the overall feel of the whole team a lot.

I've only seen like 7 or 8 shows but pretty much all of them had at least as good characterization, and I think in all cases better interactions with each other.

Then again it's been 5 years and I might just be remembering them worse than they were.

[Dr Kain]

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Originally Posted by Fish Sandwich

Go-Busters did one better and had an episode where one of the Rangers DID die.

To be perfectly honest, I forgot that even happened.

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In general those complaints are pretty valid but I think complaining about the "stakes" of Go-Busters being low is kind of ignoring all the actual atypical elements. And all the other things that make it work so well.

I guess it's hard to say but yeah, the Buddyroids really ruined the show for me. If they didn't exist, I probably would not have hated it as much as I did. Although, granted, I do have more of an appreciation for it considering what has come after.

As for the Jetman discussion, I love the show, but I hate how erratic Gai is. Sometimes he is all over Kaori and doesn't want to be part of the team, but then he will be a perfect team player for like 10 episodes, only to revert back to not wanting to be part of the team and has a thing against Ryu even though they just worked perfectly together for the last several episodes.